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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/conway-obamacare-special-session This headline is supposed to say "may hold," not "to hold," which is an interesting thing in and of itself. But yeah.  healthcare.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:08
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thechosenone posted:I think if democrats would be more likely to do it than others since we wouldn't be hurt as much by eliminating it either explicitly or implicitly. And we have, in fact, been hosed over twice because of it.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:09
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How so?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:10
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Lightning Knight posted:I was going to say a quarter but I don't know how the numbers are shaking out. A fifth - 50 mil out of 320 - sounds about right though. I forgot kids don't vote, so closer to a quarter/third of eligible voters. 
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Nov 14, 2016 18:10
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Rhukatah posted:I seem to recall more Republicans getting primaried than Democrats though? A Tea Party guy can pick up a billionaire donor to fund his attempts to primary a moderate. People on the left can't do that.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:10
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FactsAreUseless posted:So you're arguing that someone who lost their job shouldn't believe black people are human? I don't think he was arguing about the Platonic Ideal Voter here.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:10
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I'm wondering how the voting habits of younger people will change as they get older. Specifically in terms of how much they vote.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:11
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Lightning Knight posted:This headline is supposed to say "may hold," not "to hold," which is an interesting thing in and of itself. The best thing is that they are going to delay the repeal to kick in in 2019 so the real pain won't be felt until after the midterms.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:11
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John_A_Tallon posted:I don't think he was arguing about the Platonic Ideal Voter here.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:13
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thechosenone posted:How so? We've won the popular vote twice but lost the Presidency. 2000 and 2016. Mister Macys posted:I forgot kids don't vote, so closer to a quarter/third of eligible voters.  mcmagic posted:The best thing is that they are going to delay the repeal to kick in in 2019 so the real pain won't be felt until after the midterms. Yeah this is some bullshit. Here are some writings by union affiliated sources on the importance of leftists and union advocates for fighting racism. The gist of it is what I've been saying: historically the right has utilized racial animosity to undermine unions and workers, and so long as we allow there to be an underclass of poor people - whether it's in Milwaukee or Mexico or Bangledesh - the right will try and exploit them at the expense of them and white workers.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:14
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TyrantWD posted:A Tea Party guy can pick up a billionaire donor to fund his attempts to primary a moderate. People on the left can't do that. They mostly didn't, the Tea Party has its Kochs but it largely really is a grassroots revolt of the base against the party of Bush and Reagan.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:14
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TyrantWD posted:A Tea Party guy can pick up a billionaire donor to fund his attempts to primary a moderate. People on the left can't do that. We have to animate the real Americans. We can.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:16
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Glazier posted:I don't want to worry anyone else. I'll just go through the motions until it's time to die. Lightning Knight posted:Yo dude you need help. I don't really know what to say to make it better in this moment, but you need to talk to someone in real life because you're depression spiraling and I have definitely been there before and it isn't going to get better if you just sit here letting it fester. I'm not telling you it isn't bad. But you need help. This. The people in your life will not say "can you and your depression go away? You're bothering me." That, and if you want there are people who work at mental health hotlines that want to help. I haven't done a ton of background checking but here's a depression/anxiety/suicide hotline run by the Samaritans of New York: (212) 673-3000 Please call and just have a chat with someone. I hope it helps. spacetoaster posted:Did you vote Hillary? You know, the candidate bank rolled by countries that execute gay people for being gay?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:17
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I am tired of of this finger pointong. Time to come up with some plans and act on them. How I can get a job in Trump's staff? He apparently did not have a staff ready. I want to steal the white house stuff for a week and then proceed to never show up to work. Idiots will probably continue sending my pay checks for years. I want the silver ware and and portraits of presidents. A few of those pens too. Oh good idea. Spread rumors that Trump's staff is stealing stuff, then sell "genuine antiques" from white house to gullible rich people. I have some Chinese contacts. Think they will be interested?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:17
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TyrantWD posted:Obama and Trump are polar opposites when it comes to policy. Trump ran on undoing the Obama presidency so if you voted for both, chances are you were a rube who got caught up in celebrity and personality rather than did a 180 in your beliefs. This exactly. People who voted for Obama then voted for Trump will only be "won back" by an extremely charismatic candidate who sells themselves as an outsider. Policy doesn't matter to these people.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:17
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Donald Trump had no idea what the president's job actually consists of, and his staff didn't realize that they actually had to hire everyone who would be working in the west wing because the current presidential staff would not be staying on. Barack Obama takes pity on the president-elect and will be doing some additional hand-holding during the transition.quote:During their private White House meeting on Thursday, Mr. Obama walked his successor through the duties of running the country, and Mr. Trump seemed surprised by the scope, said people familiar with the meeting. Trump aides were described by those people as unaware that the entire presidential staff working in the West Wing had to be replaced at the end of Mr. Obama’s term.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:17
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Crowsbeak posted:We have to animate the real Americans. We can. If the voter turnout is anything to go by, the defining feature of is Real Americans is that they don't vote.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:18
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:I am tired of of this finger pointong. Time to come up with some plans and act on them. Here you go: https://www.greatagain.gov/serve-america.html Edit: Also this: https://apply.ptt.gov/
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Nov 14, 2016 18:18
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Crowsbeak posted:We have to animate the real Americans. We can.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:19
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FactsAreUseless posted:So you're arguing that someone who lost their job shouldn't believe black people are human? No, head saying that if people are economically desperate enough, then social policies will take a back seat to economic ones. I guess being able to eat trumps advancing civil rights.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:19
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:I am tired of of this finger pointong. Time to come up with some plans and act on them. How are you at fawning and palace intrigue, and can you provide some letters of recommendation to that effect?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:20
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My Linux Rig posted:No, head saying that if people are economically desperate enough, then social policies will take a back seat to economic ones.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:21
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Unzip and Attack posted:This exactly. People who voted for Obama then voted for Trump will only be "won back" by an extremely charismatic candidate who sells themselves as an outsider. Policy doesn't matter to these people. I don't think policy matters to anyone who voted for Trump since he didn't talk about policy during the entire election and clearly has no clue on the subject.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:21
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It's already pretty obvious that Dems aren't going to learn anything from this loss.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:22
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paranoid randroid posted:like uh i dunno how better to put this, but if some of yall are confused why "focus on economic issues" is getting conflated with racism, maybe you should be paying closer attention to what some of your fellow travelers are saying Nah, they're all just racists. The economy is already great!
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Nov 14, 2016 18:22
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TyrantWD posted:People who voted for Trump because they thought he was going to bring jobs back aren't people who are going to be won back by any messaging about how your policies will help them. Hillary spoke about how she will help these voters far more than Obama did. Yeah, she spent so many hours talking to these people in Wisconsin that the dial rolled all the way back around to zero.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:24
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Scent of Worf posted:It's already pretty obvious that Dems aren't going to learn anything from this loss. Based on?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:25
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ozmunkeh posted:Yeah, she spent so many hours talking to these people in Wisconsin that the dial rolled all the way back around to zero. That is dumb. She was in Florida pretty much the whole election and still lost it.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:25
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My Linux Rig posted:Nah, they're all just racists. The economy is already great! ive seen posts about raw milk that are better at trolling than you
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Nov 14, 2016 18:26
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My Linux Rig posted:No, head saying that if people are economically desperate enough, then social policies will take a back seat to economic ones. we're assuming here that people who were swayed by trump's promise to build a time machine and restore the economy to a pre-globalist paradigm are rational actors
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Nov 14, 2016 18:26
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FactsAreUseless posted:What is the exact level of poverty that justifies racism? Does the poverty have to be realized, or can one become racist to pre-empt a slide into the projected poverty level that would make such behaviour acceptable? Does liquidity matter in determining what an acceptable poverty level is, or do I have to count assets that are tied up? If I use one weird tax loophole to show huge losses, does that make me impoverished enough? Does my wealth for determining if I can be racist or not get counted before or after I pay my religious tithes?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:27
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paranoid randroid posted:ive seen posts about raw milk that are better at trolling than you "smartphones are for weak and boring people who need a machine to tell them where to go and what to do"
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Nov 14, 2016 18:27
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So who is this dude that a ton of big name Dems are backing to lead the DNC? I've never heard of him before but considering some of the most hyper cynical Goons here seem glad about it he must be a good thing. He's a black Muslim progressive who was first elected in 2008 and backed Bernie for president. People are really excited about him because he ticks the "progressive appeal", "minority appeal", "young people appeal", and "anti DNC establishment appeal" check boxes, so the Dems can go ahead and take all those demographics completely for granted and focus all their policy and messaging efforts on winning over the middle-aged white lower-middle class instead. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Ellison. But I'd feel a lot better if anyone even seemed to care what his vision for party fundraising and strategy is beyond "he's a progressive Bernie supporter", or if he was actively expressing interest himself rather than being appointed by all the party insiders. Right now, the push for Ellison as DNC chair brings to mind thoughts of Michael Steele, and that's pretty concerning. comingafteryouall posted:Yep, Howard Dean is 67 now and Keith Ellison is 53. If Keith Ellison ends up being a good leader, we could get a solid block of continuity from him. Rural voters don't have good schools, they don't have job prospects, there's a heroin epidemic ravaging them, and it's impossible to reach them on any of those because they would rather blame it all on black people and immigrants than accept hard truths. It's not that the Dems don't want to help them. It's that they reject every plan the Dems offer up because they don't like any of the real solutions to their problems - the narrative of "well, all your problems are due to those outsiders and foreigners and when we get rid of then all your problems will magically disappear" is just plain more convenient to them than the truth is. Sure, the truth is a lovely message. But what the hell is the alternative? The rural working class doesn't want retraining, they don't want welfare, they don't want subsidies, and they don't want guaranteed income. They've stood by and done nothing while Republican governors and legislatures axed Dem infrastructure projects and squeezed unions to death. The rural working class has only themselves to blame for their predicament, and while that's not a politically useful observation, it's extremely hard to help people who actively reject and fight against any attempt to help them. TyrantWD posted:Obama and Trump are polar opposites when it comes to policy. Trump ran on undoing the Obama presidency so if you voted for both, chances are you were a rube who got caught up in celebrity and personality rather than did a 180 in your beliefs. It's even simpler than that. It's not hard at all to explain people who voted for Obama and Trump if you remember the context of the 2008 election. In 2008, the economy was really bad, so people voted for the opposition. In 2012, the worst-case scenarios had been avoided, so those same people cut the incumbent some slack and voted for him again in hopes of further improvement. In 2016, the economy was stagnant and had been for a while, so those same people voted for the opposition. For that particular group, the actual content of the economic policies wasn't that important: they inherently distrusted the economic bona fides of the incumbent's party and tended to assume that if the incumbent couldn't end their first eight years with a decent economy, their successor would fare no better.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:28
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boner confessor posted:"smartphones are for weak and boring people who need a machine to tell them where to go and what to do" *crushes starbucks cup in white-knuckled rage* you fucker! ill end you!
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Nov 14, 2016 18:29
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Scent of Worf posted:It's already pretty obvious that Dems aren't going to learn anything from this loss. They're about to get another lesson in how ineffective change.org petitions and protests outside of McConnell's office are.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:29
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Main Paineframe posted:In 2016, the economy was stagnant and had been for a while, so those same people voted for the opposition. For that particular group, the actual content of the economic policies wasn't that important: they inherently distrusted the economic bona fides of the incumbent's party and tended to assume that if the incumbent couldn't end their first eight years with a decent economy, their successor would fare no better.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:29
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FactsAreUseless posted:What is the exact level of poverty that justifies racism? None. The question is, what are you going to do about racist people? This "economics vs racism" argument goes in stupid circles because they aren't mutually exclusive, and are both true.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:30
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Some statistics to bear in mind: Only 20% of the country functions at above an 8th grade reading level. This is the ability to read two different pieces on the same topic, summarize their differences, compare and contrast them, evaluate which one is more trustworthy, the ability to use unit pricing at a grocery store to figure out which item is a better deal, etc. About 20% of the country is functionally illiterate. They cannot interpret maps, they cannot read sentences, and they get by by memorizing phrases and recognizing individual words or phrases like "Hamburger" and "Molson Canadian Draft". Many of them possess high school diplomas anyways, due to the lax standards of the American educational system, and the overburdened and underfunded nature of our schools. Thus, it should not surprise any of us that a great number of people simply are not capable of getting that, while they are presently hosed, Black people, Indians, Middle Eastern Americans, and such, are getting hosed on a colossally greater scale. They see their problems, and they either simply cannot bring themselves to care, or they care in an abstract way (i.e. "The black guys at work are all right, but those jerks who are protesting because they want everything handed to them unlike the hard workers I know..."). Is this angering? Yes. Unquestionably. Should this myopic world-view be what prevails? No, definitely not. Is yelling at them going to solve the problem? Is trying to shame them into good behavior going to work? Is ridiculing them going to make them want to change? Absolutely not. It's an Is/Ought problem. It oughtn't be this way, but it is. This election, the Republicans proved that they could win with just white people. Strategically placed white people. That sucks more than words can convey, but it also means that we need to work on winning over the ones who aren't KKK members or neo-nazis if we want to win another election. Some theorizing on tactics: There are a few ways to get people to change their minds and behavior: --Force: Through intimidation, shows of power, and displays of force, you cow the opponent into the desired behavior, or, alternatively, drive them to such a state that they wish to be on the "winning side" and join up with you. This tactic will not work, because as has happened time and time again, the militarized police forced in this country are more than well equipped to put down any uprising that occurs. Oddly enough, can also easily be dismissed if the target has a particular worldview, and assigns stereotypes to the group i.e. "They're just a bunch of angry black guys..." "It's just stupid man pain..." "Great, the Indians are burning tires for some reason. Didn't they already get their drat casino?") Can also have the opposite effect of galvanizing the opposition against the group agitating (i.e. "Blue lives matter" people just making the Black Lives Matter folks all the more impassioned). --Sympathy: Through displays of pain, grief, and wounds, you appeal to the other side's sense of humanity, and attempt to make them feel bad enough about them selves, or about you, that they do something about it. This works well when you have things like starving orphans in dirt hovels, injured people being carried away in stretchers, and pets that have been abused. It does not work on people who have seen so many of these appeals that they are hardened and cold to the world around them, not those callous enough to think that such situations are funny when in the protection of a large group. It works very well when an individual is isolated and cannot rely on his usual peer group to back him up and laugh along with him, or get him away. --Education: Through statistics, figures, and pedagogy, the other person is led to a more full understanding of your position and, hopefully, persuaded over to your world view. Extremely time consuming, very frustrating, and not particularly rewarding in many instances, for example when one is being trolled by an rear end who has no intention of learning anything, and just wants to waste your time. Works very well on those who genuinely are interested in the subject, and only hold their present world view because they haven't considered any other. Extremely difficult to do. I'd love to hear more thoughts, expansion, ideas, debate, discussion, etc. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 18:32
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FactsAreUseless posted:What is the exact level of poverty that justifies racism? Oh I get it, worrying about your financial future is racism. Is the social reform message now just "kill whitey"?
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Nov 14, 2016 18:34
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Some statistics to bear in mind: - You can't force someone to stop being racist - You should not base any of your politics on sympathy - Racism isn't caused by lack of education
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Nov 14, 2016 18:34
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