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pookel posted:The fact that Trump's average voter was well-off is meaningless. Rich people always vote Republican on average. Hillary still lost a lot of poor white people who voted for Obama, enough to drastically change the results in the Rust Belt. "Lost" them doesn't mean they voted Trump though
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Nov 14, 2016 16:10
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It's legit insulting to impoverished whites to claim they all voted for the Cheeto Fascist.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:16
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I Killed GBS posted:It's legit insulting to impoverished whites to claim they all voted for the Cheeto Fascist. Not all of them did, sure, but white voters without a college degree broke 67-28 for Trump. That's the biggest lead any candidate has had with that demographic since 1980, and this time, they don't have the excuse of being part of a landslide.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:25
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I Killed GBS posted:It's legit insulting to impoverished whites to claim they all voted for the Cheeto Fascist.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:29
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Keep in mind that percentages can be deceiving. If a vote was split 600/600 R/D in one election, that's 50% for both, but if it's split 600/400 in the next election it's 60%/40%, which looks like a 10% defection to the other side, but could also be just 200 people on one side didn't vote.
Sax Solo has a new favorite as of 16:38 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 16:31
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I Killed GBS posted:It's legit insulting to impoverished whites to claim they all voted for the Cheeto Fascist.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:37
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pookel posted:This would be relevant if anyone were claiming it. Baron Corbyn posted:I'm not suggesting that as a strategy. I'm suggesting social liberals actually improve the lives of people in the rust belt in ways that they notice and not continue to let the working class there feel ignored and marginalised to the point where they'all vote for the bigoted demagogue.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:38
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Okay while I don't agree with the reasoning I think everyone can agree the statement "social liberals actually improve the lives of people in the rust belt in ways that they notice" is a good thing
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Nov 14, 2016 16:39
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Well of course. I just think this narrative of erasure of the people who didn't succumb to the call of fascism is awful.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:41
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I Killed GBS posted:
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Nov 14, 2016 16:45
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Something that also changed between 2012 and now was the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. A good chunk of this victory is due to voter suppression. Over 300,000 people were prevented from voting in NC, enough to easily turn the state blue. And Wisconsin also has voter ID laws, which is another state which cost Hillary the election. You also have the narrative of "BOTH CANDIDATES ARE EQUALLY BAD" which people have been floating for 9+ months, which helped increase the number of ballots with no vote for president. There was no single factor here, and it's irritating to see people claim the message we should take away from this is that we should try to be more accommodating of bigotry.
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Nov 14, 2016 16:56
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I Killed GBS posted:There was no single factor here, and it's irritating to see people claim the message we should take away from this is that we should try to be more accommodating of bigotry. Recognizing that people who voted for Trump are mostly not single-issue white supremacist voters is not "accommodating bigotry."
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Nov 14, 2016 17:20
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Someone should check in on how the usual suspects are reacting to this I haven't seen it, but I predict that St_Rev's take will either be "The truth is somewhere in the middle" or "Trump is bad but Progs are worse because something something something"
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Nov 14, 2016 17:29
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pookel posted:Literally no one is saying that. Oof, you haven't been to D&D recently then. So many backbiting cis straight white leftists in there eager to whine about "SJW"s and throw us under the bus.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:33
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pookel posted:I believe you're reading a typo for "they'll" as "they all," but I could be wrong. No you're right. I obviously don't think every working class person voted for Trump. I posted a loving graph saying they broke 53/41 for Hillary ffs. I Killed GBS just wants to assume that every single voter who switched their vote from Democrat to Republican was just waiting for the second coming of Hitler to come along for some reason. It's the kind of attitude that'll see Trump re-elected in 2020. I Killed GBS posted:I bet you claimed Brexit wasn't because of racists either, huh? Okay, pal. Assume you're right and I'm wrong. Everyone who voted for Trump did it because they think fascism is fantastic and they actively want to throw every minority under the bus. What's the strategy for 2020? Because assuming he doesn't do something stupid enough to get impeached, Trump's running again in 2020 and whatever half-hearted conciliatory talk he's putting out now is going right out the window once election season rolls around. Tack to the right and be not quite as bad as the alternative? Keep waiting for that demographic shift that's going to make the Republicans irrelevant that Democrats have been saying is just around the corner for going on 20 years? We're in the position of hoping that no upturn in the local economy happens to improve these people's lives that Trump can take credit for to keep those states in the red column and that's sad. And yes, racism played a part in the Brexit vote. A big part. Just like Trump's victory. There's probably a good 40% of voters you can completely write off in both countries as being completely apart from us in their world view to the point we'll never convince them but if you're going to be as overzealous as this in your rush to condemn them, you're just going to turn away the people who can be convinced. Again. Improbable Lobster posted:Voter turnout was also pretty poor this election. Hillary didn't lose because of voters switching, she lost because voters didn't bother voting. And she still won the popular vote. It reminds me of Canada's 2011 election where the voter turnout was barely above 60% and the winners hot a majority despite only receiving 39% of that 60%. Turnout wasn't all that poor (for a US election). The last two just had inflated turnout because Obama was very good at getting out the vote.
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Nov 14, 2016 17:51
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I'm uncomfortable with describing all Trump supporters as functionally racist or racist-adjacent or whatever when the word "racist," as applied to human beings, carries the connotation of "bad or malevolent person." In the context of my preferred liberal echo chambers, racists are people that you can feel free to spit on, basically. Knowing the connotation and using the word anyway in a context like that is dangerously useless.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:08
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:I'm uncomfortable with describing all Trump supporters as functionally racist or racist-adjacent or whatever when the word "racist," as applied to human beings, carries the connotation of "bad or malevolent person." In the context of my preferred liberal echo chambers, racists are people that you can feel free to spit on, basically. Knowing the connotation and using the word anyway in a context like that is dangerously useless. Yes that makes you uncomfortable. But it's also pretty drat realistic from every conversation I've had with actual trump voters. 20% of the us population is racist assholes, and that's all it takes to win in a low turnout election.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:24
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pookel posted:Recognizing that people who voted for Trump are mostly not single-issue white supremacist voters is not "accommodating bigotry." I'm not claiming that; I'm saying that being casually, conveniently racist still fully warrants the label. Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:I'm uncomfortable with describing all Trump supporters as functionally racist or racist-adjacent or whatever when the word "racist," as applied to human beings, carries the connotation of "bad or malevolent person." Well, it's not like they did something bad or malevolent, like elect loving Trump. The VERY WORST OFFENCE is to call a white person "racist". Oh my goodness! I mean, I'm from Australia. Could I possibly call half the population "racist" or "functionally racist"? Of course I loving could, they act it. And Trump would be a pretty typical specimen of National Party politician, a species that are sort of cane toads in suits. Though he'd split for One Nation as soon as his ego twitched.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:30
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Obama proved you can appeal to rust belt voters without packaging naked racism into the platform. The massive number of nonvoters suggests there's a lot of people who didn't want that racism packaged into the platform. That same massive number of nonvoters suggested that perhaps some effort should have been made to appeal to those people. Mass disenfranchisement and the gutted voter rights act answer why some states that should have gone blue didn't, but it doesn't explain every state. This should have been a landslide. There's a lot to why it wasn't. Like, racism led to this. But not racism alone.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:31
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Baron Corbyn posted:No you're right. I obviously don't think every working class person voted for Trump. I posted a loving graph saying they broke 53/41 for Hillary ffs. I Killed GBS just wants to assume that every single voter who switched their vote from Democrat to Republican was just waiting for the second coming of Hitler to come along for some reason. It's the kind of attitude that'll see Trump re-elected in 2020. Everyone who voted for Trump either believes that ACTUALLY, IT IS THE WHITE MAN WHO IS OPPRESSED, is openly racist, or simply doesn't give a poo poo about minorities. Every single person I know, IRL and online, who voted for Trump, has expressed these sentiments. As a minority, I'm not feeling particularly driven to reconcile with Trump voters at the moment, and no amount of kvetching about how I have to be nice to them for political expedience is going to change that right now. Also I love how you, once again, ignore voter suppression.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:33
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neongrey posted:There's a lot to why it wasn't. Like, racism led to this. But not racism alone. You're right. There was also homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, misogyny...
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Nov 14, 2016 18:35
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I Killed GBS posted:Everyone who voted for Trump either believes that ACTUALLY, IT IS THE WHITE MAN WHO IS OPPRESSED, is openly racist, or simply doesn't give a poo poo about minorities. Every single person I know, IRL and online, who voted for Trump, has expressed these sentiments. As a minority, I'm not feeling particularly driven to reconcile with Trump voters at the moment, and no amount of kvetching about how I have to be nice to them for political expedience is going to change that right now. Also I love how you, once again, ignore voter suppression. Literally all the discussions I've suffered around this: BLACKS, GAYS, NATIVES, WOMEN: Every Trump voter is a racist. Active, passive, I don't care, gently caress off. WHITE MEN: Whoa, whoa! We don't want to alienate people! #notallwhitemen #justenough
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Nov 14, 2016 18:36
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Marcus Aurelius posted:Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today inquisitive, ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill. But I, because I have seen that the nature of good is the right, and of ill the wrong, and that the nature of the man himself who does wrong is akin to my own..., I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of upper and lower teeth. To work against one another therefore is to oppose Nature, and to be vexed with another or to turn away from him is to tend to antagonism. There are basically those who understand what old MA was saying here, and those who don't. The latter are exhibiting a highly peculiar combination of smugness and despair.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:37
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:There are basically those who understand what old MA was saying here, and those who don't. The latter are exhibiting a highly peculiar combination of smugness and despair. Extreme honky levels detected
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Nov 14, 2016 18:39
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divabot posted:Literally all the discussions I've suffered around this: Not empty quoting, actually I want to add my own two cents of "c'mon fellow goons stop calling the Trump supporters racist you're just making things worse for me the pale faced goon." Really dudes? Are you really loving going that progressive apologetic route? What's next? I'm supposed to hold hands and sing kumbaya with people who if this election was done in the 1960's -70's would have salivated to turn my home country into a blazing inferno? I'm the loving bad guy for not wanting to consolidate with people who treat my ethnicity as either a beat stick against other minorities one moment and then a menace at their own convenience huh? How about instead we don't compromise with people that want nothing less than to oppress/enslave/genocide minorities? Annointed has a new favorite as of 18:42 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 18:40
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:There are basically those who understand what old MA was saying here, and those who don't. The latter are exhibiting a highly peculiar combination of smugness and despair. marcus aurelius sounds like a real tiresome person to talk to
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Nov 14, 2016 18:46
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:There are basically those who understand what old MA was saying here, and those who don't. The latter are exhibiting a highly peculiar combination of smugness and despair. Ah yes, stoic philosophy, the real solution to the racism problem in the US. Can't possibly ever change anyone's mind about being a racist so accept racism.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:53
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:There are basically those who understand what old MA was saying here, and those who don't. The latter are exhibiting a highly peculiar combination of smugness and despair.
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Nov 14, 2016 18:58
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I Killed GBS posted:You're right. There was also homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, misogyny... I don't dispute this. And I don't think "we should make friends with these people" is the answer. As has been said, even if someone is not a self-identifying racist (and I say racism only solely for brevity's sake) if they voted trump they are at least neutral to the notion of it as part of the package. I am not terribly interested in how one might have gotten a trump voter to flip. I am interested in squeezing out enough votes in low turnout areas that were not the focus of voter suppression efforts. There's lots of people who were not buying what Trump was selling but felt the needs of their region were profoundly unaddressed by the Clinton campaign and felt no personal draw to her (the twenty year smear campaign against her did not help on that front) and just didn't show up. You are correct but not correct enough to account for enough votes to make up all the difference. Numerically, this election got nickel and dimed away.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:04
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Annointed posted:Not empty quoting, actually I want to add my own two cents of "c'mon fellow goons stop calling the Trump supporters racist you're just making things worse for me the pale faced goon." Lol at all this strawmanning. Moan all you like about people who voted for Trump, the Dems still need to at least pretend to stand for something else than Wall Street or the exact same poo poo is going to go down again next time.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:07
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Oh cool, more berniebros.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:13
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Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:Lol at all this strawmanning. Moan all you like about people who voted for Trump, the Dems still need to at least pretend to stand for something else than Wall Street or the exact same poo poo is going to go down again next time. Lol you act like I wasn't already against the dems being only interested in their donors and you trying to deflect from the "we must tolerate the intolerance of racists" topic I Killed GBS posted:Oh cool, more berniebros. They disappointed Bernie and made him loving cry by pretty much facilitating Trump's win. They are dead to me.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:15
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I Killed GBS posted:Everyone who voted for Trump either believes that ACTUALLY, IT IS THE WHITE MAN WHO IS OPPRESSED, is openly racist, or simply doesn't give a poo poo about minorities. Every single person I know, IRL and online, who voted for Trump, has expressed these sentiments. As a minority, I'm not feeling particularly driven to reconcile with Trump voters at the moment, and no amount of kvetching about how I have to be nice to them for political expedience is going to change that right now. Also I love how you, once again, ignore voter suppression. Hillary, though, is not an oppressed minority voter. Hillary is an establishment politician and a millionaire who thought she'd be able to win an election while completely ignoring rural voters in general and the Rust Belt in particular, and I see a lot of people using "but racism!" as a cover for her mistakes, as if she did everything right and was simply blindsided by the overwhelming bigotry of the American people. No. She hosed up. She lost a lot of black and Hispanic voters by taking them for granted, and she lost a lot of white working class voters by ignoring them entirely. The lesson to be learned here isn't "make nice with racists." It's "stop taking your base for granted, because voters are stupid and fickle and a whole lot of white people are willing to gently caress over minorities if they feel they're being offered something they need." (Well, that and pay some loving attention to state races and do something about voter suppression laws.)
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Nov 14, 2016 19:20
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This is a repeat from the last time she tried to become president and she and her staffers learned absolutely nothing from then. I'm not even sure Hillary is even able to understand what she dun goofed on that allowed the most belligerent and incompetent of people into power.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:23
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I Killed GBS posted:Everyone who voted for Trump either believes that ACTUALLY, IT IS THE WHITE MAN WHO IS OPPRESSED, is openly racist, or simply doesn't give a poo poo about minorities. Every single person I know, IRL and online, who voted for Trump, has expressed these sentiments. As a minority, I'm not feeling particularly driven to reconcile with Trump voters at the moment, and no amount of kvetching about how I have to be nice to them for political expedience is going to change that right now. Also I love how you, once again, ignore voter suppression. Voter suppression cost Clinton Wisconsin (most likely) and possibly North Carolina but most probably not. She lost it by 3.8%, voter ID laws suppress turnout by 1.5-4%. So unless all the people who would have otherwise voted in NC were intending to vote Democrat and it's on the high estimate, the Democrats still would have lost North Carolina and even if they didn't, they still would have lost the election. And I'm not expecting you to be nice to anyone. All I'm saying is that while a majority of the people who voted for him saw the nativism as a good thing, there are people who voted for Trump because he offered them something that Hillary wasn't and yes, they're going to vote to not give a poo poo about minorities if they see it as a choice between loving themselves over and loving minorities over. It's really loving lovely but if the Democrats had listened to the concerns of these people when they were in power, maybe we wouldn't be having this argument now. Or maybe I'm wrong and all these people were motivated solely by racism and people are going to keep voting for bigoted demagogues no matter what the left offers them and the world is going to poo poo. I'd like to hope that's not the case though.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:32
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Baron Corbyn posted:Voter suppression cost Clinton Wisconsin (most likely) and possibly North Carolina but most probably not. She lost it by 3.8%, voter ID laws suppress turnout by 1.5-4%. So unless all the people who would have otherwise voted in NC were intending to vote Democrat and it's on the high estimate, the Democrats still would have lost North Carolina and even if they didn't, they still would have lost the election. hey dude, thinking of life as a zero-sum game between whites and minorities is pretty loving racist
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Nov 14, 2016 19:37
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:hey dude, thinking of life as a zero-sum game between whites and minorities is pretty loving racist Where did I say that?
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Nov 14, 2016 19:39
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Baron Corbyn posted:Where did I say that? Baron Corbyn posted:All I'm saying is that while a majority of the people who voted for him saw the nativism as a good thing, there are people who voted for Trump because he offered them something that Hillary wasn't and yes, they're going to vote to not give a poo poo about minorities if they see it as a choice between loving themselves over and loving minorities over. It's really loving lovely but if the Democrats had listened to the concerns of these people when they were in power, maybe we wouldn't be having this argument now. that is literally the scenario you provided for why whites may have voted for trump besides being racists
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Nov 14, 2016 19:44
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:that is literally the scenario you provided for why whites may have voted for trump besides being racists Note the 'if they see it as'. I think the idea is to create a convincing, appealing counternarrative rather than letting that idea fester unchallenged.
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Nov 14, 2016 19:47
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Darth Walrus posted:Note the 'if they see it as'. I think the idea is to create a convincing, appealing counternarrative rather than letting that idea fester unchallenged. and what is the appealing counternarrative when you're already so loving deep into this that you see minorities as the enemy? if they see things that way they are already definitively racist, is my point
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Nov 14, 2016 19:50
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