|
Notorious R.I.M. posted:So can someone explain to my dumb naive rear end why the winning strategy to unfuck everything for the DNC is any more complicated than:
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 23:15 |
|
|
In the end, the cob was not Trump but I 
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:12
|
|
|
Motto posted:Yeah, as far as actual campaigning goes, Clinton's campaign only dared to go as far as the "deplorables" comment, which was quickly apologized for. Which is too bad because it was one of the rarer moments in her campaign that seemed important and relevant. The deplorables stuff would have been very effective if it had been coupled with any sort of convincing argument FOR her.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:13
|
|
|
I am not going to compromise railing against racism/sexism/etc. in favor of adopting a widely-appealing economic platform. We can and will have both. Hate sucks and being poor and disadvantaged sucks, so gently caress both of it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:13
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:again, people are confusing 100% online political interactions on forums and social media with how politics shakes out in the real world and it's baffling that being called a racist on tumblr can so preoccupy someone's mind that they're still mad about it It's funny because the Clinton campaign made the same mistake
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:14
|
|
|
"no, you are" -a smart person
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:14
|
|
|
LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I'm agnostic, but please, God, save us from neoliberalism. gently caress. Let's all pray for this. Please, God, save us from neoliberalism. Amen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:15
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Eh, I wouldn't be so sure of it. Evangelical leaders of all racial backgrounds played pivotal roles in the Civil Rights era, and a big part of that meta-movement was economic justice; that part just tends to get glossed over in today's historical retellings. There's a lot of room for the Christian Left to take a seat at the table and start raking the ultra-mega-rich over the coals for exploiting God's people. Christianity was on both sides of the slavery and segregation issues, remember. White preachers wrote and spoke on elaborate screeds about how interracial marriage and integration were evil and unsupervised, free black people were dangerous and would not learn proper white Christianity. That's the problem. Christianity has been used for evil as often if not more than good. But it's a language and frame of reference many poor working class people can understand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:15
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I am not going to compromise railing against racism/sexism/etc. in favor of adopting a widely-appealing economic platform. We can and will have both. Hate sucks and being poor and disadvantaged sucks, so gently caress both of it. Amen. And both of those bad things are perpetuated by the Republican Party, no matter what way you slice it, for ultimately the same goals. One of Clinton's biggest mistakes was refusing to tie Trump to the GOP mainstream, which shares a lot more ideas with him than it would care to admit. Hopefully the next Dem nominee for president won't make the same mistake.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I am not going to compromise railing against racism/sexism/etc. in favor of adopting a widely-appealing economic platform. We can and will have both. Hate sucks and being poor and disadvantaged sucks, so gently caress both of it. The party has to do both to win anyway, so there's really no argument against it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:17
|
|
VH4Ever posted:Let's try to get the ball rolling. Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic here. Let's brainstorm, no idea is too dumb, let's keep improving and refining as we go. You wanna know what resonates with the people who didn't come out to vote for hilldawg? Focus on how we're going to make things better: hard work. Putting in an honest day's work, working up a sweat and making a real change in the world, even if all it is is digging a ditch, is satisfying. Obama's message was hope and change, and in every speech he talked about how the country had problems, and how even though they were really big, we could pull together and work to fix things. I don't necessarily think it has to be in the catch phrase. It just has to be a central tenet of the party position and something that's brought up again and again. Majorian posted:The Dems actually need to focus on both, in no small part because the U.S. is going to be majority non-white in not too many years, and non-white people often have different challenges than the white working class. The Dems need to focus way more on economic justice than they have in decades, I agree, but overcorrecting to the exclusion of social justice issues is just as big of a mistake as ignoring economic justice altogether. I agree with this, but constantly calling people sexist and racist because they don't agree with you flat out does not work, and it's a factor in why Hillary lost. The idea that you cannot talk about economic problems and still be for minorities needs to go die in the same fire neoliberalism needs to go die in, because hey, guess what, minorities also care about whether they have jobs or not. Make sure it helps them as well and they will notice it, I promise. A person in wisconsin who lost his job because of NAFTA probably cares more about whether he has a job to eat tonight than he cares about whether gay people are getting married because gay people getting married is something you worry about when the economy is doing fine and everyone has breathing space to think about social change. DACK FAYDEN posted:Hint: Nobody in the history of time has ever said this who wasn't white. Running on pure identity politics loses you elections. I'm sorry we had to find out about this by getting Donald "The U.S. has become a dumping ground" Trump elected, but now's the time to fix it. It turns out we can actually do both, who would have thought. Also, instead of just calling people racist, maybe try engaging with them and actually changing their minds so that you don't look like a walking tumblr meme?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
the inability of progressives to distinguish morally or politically people who actively pursue racist ends from people who will tolerate racism as long as doing so serves their economic ends is exactly what puts us here and what will keep us here for the next 20 years if we let it
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:18
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:Christianity was on both sides of the slavery and segregation issues, remember. White preachers wrote and spoke on elaborate screeds about how interracial marriage and integration were evil and unsupervised, free black people were dangerous and would not learn proper white Christianity. Remember the part of the VP debate where Tim Kaine and Mike Pence got into the biblical quotes? That was when Tim Kaine was at his best, and he really should have used that part of his identity more.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Running on pure identity politics loses you elections. I'm sorry we had to find out about this by getting Donald "The U.S. has become a dumping ground" Trump elected, but now's the time to fix it. It turns out we can actually do both, who would have thought. Also, instead of just calling people racist, maybe try engaging with them and actually changing their minds so that you don't look like a walking tumblr meme? Clinton won the popular vote by several million votes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:"no, you are" -a smart person Let's fight against racism by yelling about Pepe and do dance moves with Beyonce. That'll show the blacks we actually care about them!!! *immediately blames black turnout when trump wins*
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:the inability of progressives to distinguish morally or politically people who actively pursue racist ends from people who will tolerate racism as long as doing so serves their economic ends is exactly what puts us here and what will keep us here for the next 20 years if we let it What would that distinction look like, in your ideal vision of the Democratic Party? (I'm genuinely asking, not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive)
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:Not necessarily. Perhaps historically, but look at the Tea Party. The Tea Party politicians have significantly advanced the Tea Party's generalist anti-government ideology, they're nuts but they were "coopted" in the sense that they are now the establishment and calling the shots. Their issue was that they had no good ideas to begin with, not that they sold out to the Bushies. Notorious R.I.M. posted:So Russia is a petulant little baby that has a good infosec branch. Clinton was about status quo of an opsec fuckup, her organization got spearfished and some emails fell out. Anyone want to take a guess at what starts falling out of Trump once they start spearfishing him? I feel like we won't see much about the spearfishing efforts against Trump outside of the infosec community because if it gets publicized he gets deservedly impeached, and Russia doesn't want Pence any more than any one else with half a brain does. it's nice that you learned a new word but Putin doesn't have anything like the same motivation to gently caress up Trump's reelection chances that he did the woman who made it a literal campaign plank to invade his ally and start a war with him. A little blackmail material never hurts but really just by being Trump he's already everything Russia could ever ask for. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
Farewell, America
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
Business Gorillas posted:Let's fight against racism by yelling about Pepe and do dance moves with Beyonce. That'll show the blacks we actually care about them!!! "white exclusion" - you
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I agree, in principle, but I have to question how widespread of an effect this had, ie: outside of the Something Awful forums or whatever. It's not like I only post here either but let's be honest, when over 60% of people get their news from Facebook, it's obvious we're all living our lives online. Again it's anecdotal experience but I've seen and heard about countless instances of Hillary people shouting down Bernie people and insisting that people even somewhat critical of her were just flat out incorrect, but refused to outline a cogent reason in her defense. It just struck me as a flawed message, and one look at the election returns would seem to prove me right.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
Business Gorillas posted:That look on their face is them realizing that you're so deep in your own narrative you can't realize that people might have legitimate concerns with a candidate The distrust never came from legitimate concerns. You can hit your friends with all the facts you want and they still feel "uneasy," even in face of an opposition that literally embodies everything they really truly fear. But you're right, we were all caught up in our own narratives that we lost sight of what people actually felt around the country and not just in our little spheres. I. E. My corncobbing. Which is why it's unsettling, because my reality has been rocked by a statistical tie leading to a guy running on a post-factual propaganda based platform becoming our president elect.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
comingafteryouall posted:Remember the part of the VP debate where Tim Kaine and Mike Pence got into the biblical quotes? Agreed. Like I think it has potential. At the same time the vast majority of leftists and liberals are pro-secularism, for good reason. It's a fine line to walk. Still, explaining to a poor man in Appalachia that we can give him welfare and social security is probably less effective than talking about how we as (whatever religion you are) believe in compassion and mercy and will fight to pull you out of poverty via (infrastructure project of choice).
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
Quorum posted:Yeah but were they translating into British? For an American "somewhat peeved" represents a low level of frustration that might be soothed away by a walk in the woods or a beer with friends, whereas my understanding is that to a Brit "somewhat peeved" is a couple steps away from "foment treason." Oh I am translating it into British. They are in fact, deeply pissed. Also Bannon seems to have made them angrier as they don't want to look like Nazis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:A person in wisconsin who lost his job because of NAFTA probably cares more about whether he has a job to eat tonight than he cares about whether gay people are getting married because gay people getting married is something you worry about when the economy is doing fine and everyone has breathing space to think about social change. But this is clearly prioritizing one over the other. How can you say that both are equally important when they're ranked like this?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
fits my needs posted:The bad guys already won though. And smug Bernie Bros telling minorities like me we should have backed some old white guy from Vermont where it's all white people is dumb. He's never had to deal with diversity or multicultural needs in his home state so he barely has any understanding on why the "economy will raise all boats" message doesn't play with me. I think he would eagerly trade away any progress for people like me for economic policy gains. He wouldn't, but I do understand where one goon assuring you of that on the internet is far from enough assurance when it comes to your rights.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:22
|
|
|
comingafteryouall posted:Remember the part of the VP debate where Tim Kaine and Mike Pence got into the biblical quotes? he really, really should have. fiery jesuit Kaine is so much more interesting and punchy than lame dad Kaine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:22
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:But this is clearly prioritizing one over the other. How can you say that both are equally important when they're ranked like this? Wisconsin guy will vote for you because your policies will benefit him and Anacostia gal will vote for you because your policies benefit her too. It's not that complicated, really.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:22
|
|
|
boner confessor posted:again, people are confusing 100% online political interactions on forums and social media with how politics shakes out in the real world and it's baffling that being called a racist on tumblr can so preoccupy someone's mind that they're still mad about it "The internet doesn't affect politics in any way substantial to the phenomenon we're discussing. The internet isn't real" Did you miss this last election? Memes are real How do you feel about magazine and newspaper articles? Martin Random fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Nov 15, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
Submarine Sandpaper posted:"white exclusion" - you This is stupid. Shut up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
DACK FAYDEN posted:Hint: Nobody in the history of time has ever said this who wasn't white. I've said this and I'm not white. I'm an immigrant and this message will be heard by everyone louder than hisses and claims of sexism and homophobia for everything you don't personally like.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:Christianity was on both sides of the slavery and segregation issues, remember. White preachers wrote and spoke on elaborate screeds about how interracial marriage and integration were evil and unsupervised, free black people were dangerous and would not learn proper white Christianity. Well of course. And that doesn't justify the left abandoning all devout Christians as allies. Catholic priests marched along side MLK, and we now have a Pope who is basically shaming Catholics who vote purely for anti-choice candidates that have no focus on social justice. Oh and Catholics happen to make up 21% of Christians in Ohio, 23% in Michigan, 29% in Wisconsin, and 29% in Pennsylvania. You have to know which Christians to appeal to from the left, because the Evangelicals probably aren't your best bet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:You wanna know what resonates with the people who didn't come out to vote for hilldawg? Focus on how we're going to make things better: hard work. Putting in an honest day's work, working up a sweat and making a real change in the world, even if all it is is digging a ditch, is satisfying. Obama's message was hope and change, and in every speech he talked about how the country had problems, and how even though they were really big, we could pull together and work to fix things. I agree completely. I have argued with liberal friends of mine that this Democrat message of "college or bust" sure seems to leave a lot of good, hardworking plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, steelworkers, HVAC techs and all the other perfectly smart non-college educated people out of the overall party identity and I think it's a major problem. Pushing for funding for vocational training in addition to college (Kellyanne Conway has already pushed for this to show you how they hijacked this demographic) and overall doing what you said and being more inclusive would help a lot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:The Tea Party politicians have significantly advanced the Tea Party's generalist anti-government ideology, they're nuts but they were "coopted" in the sense that they are now the establishment. Their issue was that they had no good ideas to begin with, not that they sold out to the Bushies. I disagree that they're the establishment. They're a dominant force but business Republicans have been pushing back and beating their primary challenges as of late. I think this is to our advantage. The Tea Party movement conservatives will fight business Republicans' attempt to leave social conservatism at the door.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
Quorum posted:We literally cannot do this. If you stop being vocal about countering racism, sexism, homophobia et al when they appear, you are complicit in these things. Also later on you say that you can't just push one and expect people to believe that you intend both so what are you actually arguing here? I didn't say stop being vocal, I said stop using it as a campaign platform. I see this like that safety pin movement: You don't get to say "I'm an ally" by putting on a safety pin. You get to be an ally by actually helping out minorities. Campaign rhetoric is merely putting on a safety pin. If someone isn't actually an ally then their record shows it and you vote them out. Now where I am open to being completely wrong here is that I completely misunderestimated the scope of racism and if you were to offer two identical economic platforms that differed only in the fact that one was run by white supremacists and one wasn't, which one would the majority vote for? I think they'd probably vote for the Not White Supremacists but after Bannon's appointment I may be completely wrong.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
Submarine Sandpaper posted:"white exclusion" - you I agree it's much better to just call people racist than actually listen to their concerns. Good luck in the election next week!
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
ive never been entirely clear what people are referring to, on the left, when they say we need to move focus away from identity politics. because theres a lot of really good, important causes that are inherently bound up in that term that the democrats should be aggressive about.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:25
|
|
|
Business Gorillas posted:I agree it's much better to just call people racist than actually listen to their concerns. Good luck in the election next week! Clinton won the popular vote by several million.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:25
|
|
|
paranoid randroid posted:ive never been entirely clear what people are referring to, on the left, when they say we need to move focus away from identity politics. because theres a lot of really good, important causes that are inherently bound up in that term that the democrats should be aggressive about. They are saying we should indulge white supremacy more.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:26
|
|
|
If there were white guys in Michigan who lock their doors in 'bad' neighborhoods who voted for Obama in 2008 because they thought he would get them health insurance is that a BAD thing? Do you not want them to vote for you because of that? Why do you car what is Deep In Their Hearts if they're voting for a candidate that is campaigning to restore the VRA and raise the minimum wage in 2020?botany posted:Clinton won the popular vote by several million. Congratulations! How many SCOTUS nominations does she get to pick?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 23:15 |
|
|
Mahoning posted:Well of course. And that doesn't justify the left abandoning all devout Christians as allies. Catholic priests marched along side MLK, and we now have a Pope who is basically shaming Catholics who vote purely for anti-choice candidates that have no focus on social justice. Oh and Catholics happen to make up 21% of Christians in Ohio, 23% in Michigan, 29% in Wisconsin, and 29% in Pennsylvania. You have to know which Christians to appeal to from the left, because the Evangelicals probably aren't your best bet. As a Wisconsin former Catholic I am well aware, though the Catholics in my community are overwhelmingly conservative. It's a divided religion in many ways, ironically. What I'm talking about is less appealing to religious people and more couching our message in religious terms. We should help poor people because of the mercy of Jesus/Yaweh/Muhammad/etc. and treat others with respect and kindness, etc. It's a more digestible message than dense economics and most people can relate to it with sincerity. Relatedly I think we need to fight to rehabilitate the image of the poor. The demonization of them as bad and lazy should never have been allowed to stand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2016 21:27
|
|