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anthonypants posted:What false equivalence? That Hillary and Trump were equally as bad. Reminder that Kshama Sawant went to Pennsylvania to stump for Stein.
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Nov 16, 2016 23:49
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seiferguy posted:That Hillary and Trump were equally as bad. Reminder that Kshama Sawant went to Pennsylvania to stump for Stein.
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Nov 16, 2016 23:58
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anthonypants posted:Is the false part where she went to Pennsylvania? https://www.facebook.com/events/993349167429664/ Admittedly it's not a big turnout but she was there, in a swing state campaigning for someone that would actively liken the chance of Trump getting into the white house. edit: your recent posting history shows you're being an obtuse rear end in a top hat who's not arguing in good faith, so this isn't worth the discussion unless you prove otherwise. seiferguy fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 00:01
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anthonypants posted:What false equivalence? Highlighting similarities between the candidates instead of their differences, trying to compare aspects of the two candidates and presenting them as equal in importance. Any giant douche v turd sammich idiocy. Not admitting that at least Hillary sucks within normal parameters of sucking while Trump does not. Not acknowledging the obvious galaxy sized gap between the candidates in all regards. "They're both terrible" was the #1 thing I heard about the candidates throughout the election, and while I wouldn't say it's outright wrong, it is hopelessly reductionist and misleading. Sawant campaigned in swing states in order to lower turnout for Hillary. Probably didn't make a difference, but now saying Trump was the bad guy all along is hella lovely.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:05
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A Bag of Milk posted:Highlighting similarities between the candidates instead of their differences, trying to compare aspects of the two candidates and presenting them as equal in importance. Any giant douche v turd sammich idiocy. Not admitting that at least Hillary sucks within normal parameters of sucking while Trump does not. Not acknowledging the obvious galaxy sized gap between the candidates in all regards. "They're both terrible" was the #1 thing I heard about the candidates throughout the election, and while I wouldn't say it's outright wrong, it is hopelessly reductionist and misleading. Sawant campaigned in swing states in order to lower turnout for Hillary. Probably didn't make a difference, but now saying Trump was the bad guy all along is hella lovely.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:09
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Airport rando expressed outrage about Trump while having voted for Stein. If someone stands around smugging about "not voting for the lesser of two evils" (literally all third party voters do this) while cheeto benito takes office then cries foul after it happens they can blow it out their rear end.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:13
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seiferguy posted:https://www.facebook.com/events/993349167429664/ Would you accept the premise that the 15,000 Stein voters within a hundred miles of a non-covered event in Philadelphia did not actually swing an election where voters in Pittsburgh and its county were -11,000 for Hillary and +11,000 for Trump? Especially when, despite a +4,000 vote increase by Clinton, she still reduced her share of Philadelphia's total votes by ~3%? The evidence suggests that you would have to argue that Kshama Sawant increased Republican turn-out in Philadelphia (where she was) AND promoted vote-switching in Pittsburgh (where she wasn't). Which would be at least an interesting theory that doesn't ride with the Evil Nader 2.0 theory that has been popping up after a requisite period of morning by Clintonites.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:13
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Magres posted:Airport rando expressed outrage about Trump while having voted for Stein. If someone stands around smugging about "not voting for the lesser of two evils" (literally all third party voters do this) while cheeto benito takes office then cries foul after it happens they can blow it out their rear end.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:17
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Gerund posted:Would you accept the premise that the 15,000 Stein voters within a hundred miles of a non-covered event in Philadelphia did not actually swing an election where voters in Pittsburgh and its county were -11,000 for Hillary and +11,000 for Trump? Especially when, despite a +4,000 vote increase by Clinton, she still reduced her share of Philadelphia's total votes by ~3%? The evidence suggests that you would have to argue that Kshama Sawant increased Republican turn-out in Philadelphia (where she was) AND promoted vote-switching in Pittsburgh (where she wasn't). Which would be at least an interesting theory that doesn't ride with the Evil Nader 2.0 theory that has been popping up after a requisite period of morning by Clintonites.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:20
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twodot posted:Sawant is likely not personally responsibly for delivering Pennsylvania, but we should agree contributing to that result is bad, right? Hillary Clinton voters are not personally responsible for electing Donald Trump, but we should agree that contributing to that result is bad, right?
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Nov 17, 2016 00:23
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Gerund posted:Would you accept the premise that the 15,000 Stein voters within a hundred miles of a non-covered event in Philadelphia did not actually swing an election where voters in Pittsburgh and its county were -11,000 for Hillary and +11,000 for Trump? Especially when, despite a +4,000 vote increase by Clinton, she still reduced her share of Philadelphia's total votes by ~3%? The evidence suggests that you would have to argue that Kshama Sawant increased Republican turn-out in Philadelphia (where she was) AND promoted vote-switching in Pittsburgh (where she wasn't). Which would be at least an interesting theory that doesn't ride with the Evil Nader 2.0 theory that has been popping up after a requisite period of morning by Clintonites. I honestly don't know how many votes Sawant swung, if any. I don't think the discussion revolves around that, but the optics of her campaigning in swing states for Stein, and then being upset with the results that Trump won to where she's leading protest is a bad look since she refused to tell supporters to vote for Clinton, the best chance to beat Trump.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:27
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anthonypants posted:No. Edit: I suppose to answer the question, contributing to a Trump is bad, even if you are not personally responsible for the win (which is why voting for Trump is bad), but Clinton voters aren't, to my knowledge, contributing to a Trump win, so your first phrase being in the question makes no sense. Edit2: I suppose, arguably, Clinton voters in the primary contributed to a Trump win, if you believe Sanders could have carried Pennsylvania, but that's a very up hill argument to make. twodot fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 00:29
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anthonypants posted:No. How did people who voted for Clinton help elect Trump?
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Nov 17, 2016 00:31
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A Bag of Milk posted:How did people who voted for Clinton help elect Trump?
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Nov 17, 2016 00:34
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seiferguy posted:I honestly don't know how many votes Sawant swung, if any. I don't think the discussion revolves around that, but the optics of her campaigning in swing states for Stein, and then being upset with the results that Trump won to where she's leading protest is a bad look since she refused to tell supporters to vote for Clinton, the best chance to beat Trump.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:41
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anthonypants posted:If you think the "optics" are a thing you should care about, then consider that Kshama Sawant has been pretty consistent in her effort to elect a leftist to the presidency, and she's willing to go as far as to endorse Bernie Sanders. He didn't want to run after he lost the primary, so she decided to endorse the next best candidate, who, you may be surprised to learn, was not, in fact, Donald Trump. I think if you took a look at Sawant's principles you would find out that Trump is going to be pretty far down her list of ideal candidates. No poo poo. Do I really need to spell out that advocating to people to vote for Stein swing states as opposed to Hillary because Hillary just isn't quite left enough according to Sawant's ideological purity is a nonzero effect on getting Trump elected, who is literally the worst thing for a socialist? The choices were progressive, albeit flawed candidate, or orange Hitler. Sawant may as well have written in "thoughts and prayers" into her ballot instead.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:53
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I feel like Kshama can do whatever and also say whatever she wants. She's pretty far to the left of the democratic party and has had to work against them the entire time she's been doing anything.seiferguy posted:The choices were progressive, albeit flawed candidate, or orange Hitler. Sawant may as well have written in "thoughts and prayers" into her ballot instead. lol at Hillary being progressive though. Hillary didn't take a stand for anything during her campaign and thats one of the reasons she lost. Its a much, much bigger reason than 'Kshama said mean things about her that were also probably true'. Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 00:57
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seiferguy posted:No poo poo. Do I really need to spell out that advocating to people to vote for Stein swing states as opposed to Hillary because Hillary just isn't quite left enough according to Sawant's ideological purity is a nonzero effect on getting Someone With Tiny Hands elected, who is literally the worst thing for a socialist? The socialists are aiming for the long term. See how liberal Germany is now?
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Nov 17, 2016 00:58
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anthonypants posted:What false equivalence? I'll take the bait! Its the false equivalence that Trump and Clinton are the same. Edit: Oh, and Stein is hilariously lovely. Mrit SA fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 01:11
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I can't believe people on the far left seriously think this is going to push dems to the left. Bernie worked harder than any politician I've ever seen not on the actual ticket to get Hillary elected. He obviously didn't believe a Trump win was good for socialists so he didn't support a politically naive moron like Stein. Its more likely the country politically realigns to the right after this. Also don't give me any I live in a solid red/blue state poo poo. Trump flipped solid blue states from apathy and a greater popular vote victory for Hillary would have sent a stronger message than anyone throwing a fit now.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:23
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It doesn't surprise me that's what Sawant did, but it's definitely a bad dumb thing. Yes, holding Democrats to the fire is good, but part of the problem with third parties is that they aim for it all, merely happy to be a protest vote. The fact that she aimed at city council rather than governor or something Quixotic like that was my original attraction to her. I knew the downside would be this, but honestly it doesn't reflect well. This is why I'm sort of 75-25 on Sawant. I like her better than a generic establishment Dem, but I think there can be better faces for socialism and leftism. But I also think the Stranger is being just as over focused on appearing "reasonable" over good results. It's all stupid, and probably will be forgotten by the time council elections roll around. This situation has a million smoking guns that caused it. It's a perfect storm of everything wrong with American politics. You can spend forever tracking them down.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:31
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FuzzySlippers posted:I can't believe people on the far left seriously think this is going to push dems to the left. Bernie worked harder than any politician I've ever seen not on the actual ticket to get Hillary elected. He obviously didn't believe a Trump win was good for socialists so he didn't support a politically naive moron like Stein. Its more likely the country politically realigns to the right after this.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:37
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anthonypants posted:It should be blindingly obvious to everyone at this point that nothing is going to push the Democrat party to the left, which is why leftists are endorsing third-party candidates. If you can't support them on principle, but you understand how far to the right Hillary Clinton is, then I hope you feel good about your Democrat protest vote. Maybe if leftists want to push the Democratic party to the left, they should consistently vote in elections and take a bigger role within the party's internal machinery instead of whining about no one doing it for them
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Nov 17, 2016 01:41
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anthonypants posted:It should be blindingly obvious to everyone at this point that nothing is going to push the Democrat party to the left, which is why leftists are endorsing third-party candidates. If you can't support them on principle, but you understand how far to the right Hillary Clinton is, then I hope you feel good about your Democrat protest vote. But in any case, all of this finger-pointing is a horrible way to do anything right now. Trump is going to be president. What do we do for the next few years to contain the damage and move forward, is the question. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 01:48
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HorseRenoir posted:Maybe if leftists want to push the Democratic party to the left, they should consistently vote in elections and take a bigger role within the party's internal machinery instead of whining about no one doing it for them Ditocoaf posted:The democratic party is further left than it was 10, 20 years ago.
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Nov 17, 2016 01:52
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anthonypants posted:I guess you missed the last year of American politics so here's a quick recap: Hillary Clinton's campaign team completely ignored leftists and tried to get the "moderate Republican" to vote for them, which was a resounding failure, and now they're placing the blame solely on leftists. This is the exact opposite of what's happening, though? The party is unifying around progressive candidates like Ellison, Sanders, and Warren with the blessing of major establishment names instead of infighting. Maybe you should take their lead and try to take advantage of this rebuilding effort instead of getting mad that some centrist blogger somewhere wrote mean things about Bernie
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Nov 17, 2016 01:57
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seiferguy posted:I honestly don't know how many votes Sawant swung, if any. I don't think the discussion revolves around that, but the optics of her campaigning in swing states for Stein, and then being upset with the results that Trump won to where she's leading protest is a bad look since she refused to tell supporters to vote for Clinton, the best chance to beat Trump. First: the best chance to beat Trump in the fall. The argument has rested on the theory that false equivalence was a major factor that swung the election, and therefore anyone who ever contributed to it being used as a rhetorical device bears that shame- no matter what their principles and what they represent or who they were talking to. This is what a complaint about "the optics" means when broken into a stated argument. It presumes voter confusion; which I could see as either depressed turn out, or flat turn out with more voters going to third parties and/or the opponent. But back-of-the-envelope calculations have turnout in PA increasing by a percentage point. Its a busted argument. Clintonite politicians either failed (2016, 2008, 2000) or skipped (2012, 2004) presidential campaigns in this millennia. The light breeze of critique has nothing on their own massive failures.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:01
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HorseRenoir posted:This is the exact opposite of what's happening, though? The party is unifying around progressive candidates like Ellison, Sanders, and Warren with the blessing of major establishment names instead of infighting. Maybe you should take their lead and try to take advantage of this rebuilding effort instead of getting mad that some centrist blogger somewhere wrote mean things about Bernie
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Nov 17, 2016 02:03
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Yeah I do want to clarify that despite still thinking that third-party voting was an unproductive gesture this year, I don't think third-party voters are why Trump won, I didn't join this argument to support that POV at all because it's dumb, just look at the turnout numbers. Clinton and her supporters (including me) botched this year, it was a mediocre campaign with bad messaging.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:06
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anthonypants posted:Actually, I think it's funny, to me. And I would strongly consider that you catch up on contemporary politics because Keith Ellison is not going to be the DNC chair. I like your posting, anthonypants. I'd like to buy you a beer sometime.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:06
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HorseRenoir posted:Maybe if leftists want to push the Democratic party to the left, they should consistently vote in elections and take a bigger role within the party's internal machinery instead of whining about no one doing it for them Maybe democratic politicians shouldn't work against progressive policies like the $15 minimum wage and then leftists would vote for them.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:36
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Doorknob Slobber posted:Maybe democratic politicians shouldn't work against progressive policies like the $15 minimum wage and then leftists would vote for them.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:55
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Hey, so, ignoring Clinton and Stein for a second: this is objectively bad
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Nov 17, 2016 03:16
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Lol felony. Get bent.
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Nov 17, 2016 03:33
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Remove all protesters right to vote. Democracy, freedom!
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Nov 17, 2016 03:48
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Let him do it, ignore the current protests, and then break up the next right-wing protest with felonies, pointing them his way.
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Nov 17, 2016 05:45
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It's just a grumpy old Republican man being grumpy old Republican. It would never pass muster with Olympia.
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Nov 17, 2016 05:47
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foobardog posted:Let him do it, ignore the current protests, and then break up the next right-wing protest with felonies, pointing them his way. Cops treating repubs as harshly as lefties? Ha ha ha Only violent protests make the system pay attention. I was in the anti-iraq and ows protests, nonviolence doesnt get poo poo done.
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Nov 17, 2016 05:56
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HorseRenoir posted:This is the exact opposite of what's happening, though? The party is unifying around progressive candidates like Ellison, Sanders, and Warren with the blessing of major establishment names instead of infighting. Maybe you should take their lead and try to take advantage of this rebuilding effort instead of getting mad that some centrist blogger somewhere wrote mean things about Bernie She lost the election because anywhere between 5 and 9 million people stayed home. Trump didn't win because there was an unprecedented number of people voting for him, he won because people on the left didn't show up on voting day like they did for Obama. anthonypants is right, she lost because she didn't court the left, instead she focused on trying to win over the "moderate" right and failed miserably.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:19
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got any sevens posted:Cops treating repubs as harshly as lefties? Ha ha ha I want to believe. 
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Nov 17, 2016 06:38
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