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That's cool I guess. Thanks for the insight. 
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Nov 17, 2016 02:35
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ruddiger posted:You realize your post reads exactly like how I said it does? "Well actually..." and then you go into a bunch of info extracted from sources that are not the movies themselves. I never said you weren't answering baseb's question, I'm just pointing out how "right" your posts usually are. He's right if the question is "what events took place before Alien outside of the film" hth. Also, you could also cite AvP-R if you really want and are stupid.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:49
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Actually, that horrific piece of trash is on HBO. I might watch it. It's been a while and I have time to kill before seeing Arrival.
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Nov 17, 2016 02:50
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CelticPredator posted:Also, you could also cite AvP-R if you really want and are stupid. It's still better than Prometheus! At least the townsfolk are believable as dumb retards.
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Nov 17, 2016 03:12
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Prometheus looks nice and has a very cool Alien Body horror scene that isn't total schlock. AvP-R is Friday Part 8 levels of garbage.
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Nov 17, 2016 03:57
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Jason Takes Manhattan, classic!
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Nov 17, 2016 04:00
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UmOk posted:Would you say it retroactively makes the movie worse? No; it's that comparison to Alien makes the 'expanded universe' look worse. It's bad form to fill in a nonexistent plot hole, created through trouble reading.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No; it's that comparison to Alien makes the 'expanded universe' look worse. Like, such a blanket statement seems awfully dismissive, especially when the "expanded universe" spans a myriad of creators, forms of media, art styles, tones, etc. Edit-- and I'm not sure your answer really addresses his question as it pertains to what he quoted (the "film as a microcosm" idea) Edit again-- the "film as a microcosm" idea in general has always felt unnecessarily reductive, not particularly useful, and fairly counter-intuitive, but to each their own. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 06:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No; it's that comparison to Alien makes the 'expanded universe' look worse. Completely agreed. The omission of detail is just as important as the detail that's provided. Scott left those details out for a reason. I'll never understand the pedantic need to know every detail or assign a formula for every unspecified detail in a movie. A movie is the sum of its parts, it's true, but fans trying to tie every end together ruins what the film set out to do. Scott didn't direct alien for it to be a fan-obsessed franchise or for a bunch of failed genre writers to latch onto a film series that's not wars or trek. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 06:21
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ruddiger posted:Completely agreed. The omission of detail is just as important as the detail that's provided. Scott left those details out for a reason. I'll never understand the pedantic need to know every detail or assign a formula for every unspecified detail in a movie. A movie is the sum of its parts, it's true, but fans trying to tie every end together ruins what the film set out to do. Scott didn't direct alien for it to be a fan-obsessed franchise or for a bunch of failed genre writers to latch onto a film series that's not wars or trek. And that's the thing, a lot of the expanded universe gets that. Like yeah the occasional detail might get filled in, but the film sequels do that, too - it's not specific to the fans or the expanded universe. A lot of the Alien expanded universe is intentionally muddled, or contradictory, and there are swaths of topics, questions, and ideas that FOX has straight up said are off-limits and aren't meant to be answered, for the exact reason you said. The Alien expanded universe really isn't handled the way Star Wars/Star Trek are, with spin-off books for every background character and dozens of technical journals with detailed analysis. poo poo, the one "technical manual" the franchise has features an entire chapter devoted to analyzing and explaining the Alien, and then it proceeds to do the exact opposite and comes away with nothing answered and even more questions. Prometheus is just as guilty as the expanded universe for "filling in the details". The Space Jockey is weird and creepy and mysterious, and that's a big part of the appeal - we get hints of what its story is, but a lot is left unanswered and that's great. The expanded universe tried to fill in their backstory and it was (mostly) underwhelming. Prometheus took a crack at it, and it was underwhelming, too.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:57
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It's stated on screen that there's a standard procedure that any possible alien transmissions have to be investigated (the "no money" scene), and that Mother changed course to make the crew do so. That Ash replaced the Nostromo's previous science officer before departure and was given Special Order 937 to obtain an alien at any cost (they're not interested in the Derelict, only the life form) makes it pretty clear that the Company had some idea of what was out there and how dangerous - and valuable to them - it was. As to how "complicit" Mother is, she lets Ripley see the Ash's-eyes-only SO937 and identifies the signal as a warning once Ripley takes over the analysis from Ash, so who knows, maybe she was still trying to help as best she could...
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Nov 17, 2016 09:03
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Xenomrph posted:Frankly I agree, there's a lot of weird and mysterious things in 'Alien' and that's how I like them. I don't need them to be explained, they're fine the way they are. You're in a false dichotomy between 'plot exposition' and 'mystery'. The first few minutes of Alien use pure visual storytelling to say that the alien was stumbled upon by accident. There is no exposition, yet there is no plot hole. There is no mystery. The EU answers a question - "how did they find the signal??" - that was never asked. It's a fake question. It's similar to how, in that videogame, the EU answers the question "how did Hicks get his entire skull crushed?" That's not a real question. We are shown that his skull was crushed when his spaceship smashed into the side of a planet. There is no exposition, yet there is no plot hole. There is no mystery.
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Nov 17, 2016 09:24
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Ya'll are acting like those stiffs going after Ripley in Aliens.
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Nov 17, 2016 09:33
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CelticPredator posted:Prometheus looks nice and has a very cool Alien Body horror scene that isn't total schlock. AvP-R is alright if you see it as an italian ripoff. It just needs a better soundtrack.
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Nov 17, 2016 10:28
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The soundtrack is the only thing I like about it. It's a very cool catch all Alien/Predator score. Although it needed to less original imo. The Predator theme needs to always be in a film with a Predator. That's also the best thing about Predators as well.
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Nov 17, 2016 11:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The EU answers a question - "how did they find the signal??" - that was never asked. It's a fake question. Go back and re-read my earlier post where I answered Basebf555's question - the only "EU" reference I make is at the end, regarding Alien Isolation and why the Derelict beacon was never detected again between Alien and Aliens. it's a pretty valid question when you've got people literally living on the planet for decades in the second movie. Everything else I said is either outright shown or stated in 'Alien', or can be inferred from it; like I said, the EU just reiterates what we largely already knew. Maybe you need to explain what a "fake question" is a little better, but I don't think there is such a thing. The viewer can ask any question they want.
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Nov 17, 2016 12:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The EU answers a question - "how did they find the signal??" - that was never asked. It's a fake question. It actually was asked, by me. I asked the question.
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Nov 17, 2016 15:01
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All of this t-this BULLSHIT! Well you can kiss all that goodbye!
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Nov 17, 2016 19:58
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Xenomrph posted:Not really, the EU merely reiterates or expands on what the movie already showed us. Dallas mentions Ash was a new addition to the crew. Lambert checking the navigation charts and saying that she has no idea where they are but it's not where they're supposed to be shows that they were deliberately sent off-course. Special Order 937 shows that the Company knew something was out there, and Ash (the science officer) straight up violates quarantine procedures and then outright admits that he was in on it. The special order was not given by the company to Mother. The order was given from Mother to Ash. It's for "SCIENCE OFFICER EYES ONLY". Ripley is specifically reading Ash's e-mail. The order actually begins by notifying Ash that Mother has already/automatically rerouted the Nostromo to new coordinates. Past tense. At those coordinates, Ash's task is now to investigate the lifeform and gather a specimen for analysis. Analysis is his ONLY task, but it is something that he must do at all cost. Mother is evidently pre-programmed with roughly 1000 'special orders' that come into effect under unusual circumstances. She is relaying those orders mid-journey, after Ash is unfrozen.
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Nov 17, 2016 20:01
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Yes, I agree with all of that for the most part, although Mother wasn't pre-loaded with all of the Special Orders like Robocop-style "Prime Directive"; the order is specific in asking for a specimen - if it's just an if/then directive that's always in place, how does Mother/Ash know there's a specimen to collect when all they have is a beacon? For Basebf555's benefit, the EU goes into a little detail on the "900-series Special Orders": they're issued on a case by case basis, and were created in the aftermath of the Prometheus mission to prioritize acquiring potentially beneficial extraterrestrial artifacts/specimens/etc. A similar but differently-worded Special Order shows up in Alien Isolation, I think it's #939. The unstated implication is that if each Special Order is a one-off, and they're issued sequentially, then there were 36 other instances prior to 'Alien' where the Company felt it had the opportunity to acquire something of value.
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Nov 17, 2016 20:52
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Might be the constant and obnoxious overuse of this smiley that annoys people. Extended Universes in general are just giant exercises in answering questions that don't loving matter and telling stories no one wanted to hear. There's no reason I need to know the name WILLROW HOOD, but welp. There's just a weird subgroup of fans that has to do this poo poo, not sure why. Hey, I owned a copy of the STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION TECHNICAL MANUAL, so maybe I am part of the problem.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:00
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AlternateAccount posted:Extended Universes in general are just giant exercises in answering questions that don't loving matter and telling stories no one wanted to hear. There's no reason I need to know the name WILLROW HOOD, but welp. There's just a weird subgroup of fans that has to do this poo poo, not sure why. Hey, I owned a copy of the STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION TECHNICAL MANUAL, so maybe I am part of the problem. To repeat myself for the third time, I asked him a direct question, this isn't one of those times where he just jumped into a conversation about the movies, he was responding to a specific request. So I'll just pretend these posts are directed at me since I was the one who was interested. Its curiosity, nothing more. I don't really give a poo poo about what the answer is, I just find it interesting that there probably is one and its fun to think about what it might be. Finding out that there's a comic that reframes the Company's actions in Alien isn't going to change my viewing experience, its just a little harmless nerding out.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:05
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Some people get really upset about people enjoying EU stuff. Kind of like like the people that get upset about people enjoying Star Wars prequels. Some just can't accept that people like things that they consider "bad".
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Nov 17, 2016 22:07
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AlternateAccount posted:Might be the constant and obnoxious overuse of this smiley that annoys people. You're just too bad.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:29
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AlternateAccount posted:Might be the constant and obnoxious overuse of this smiley that annoys people. Xenomrph posted:Frankly I agree, there's a lot of weird and mysterious things in 'Alien' and that's how I like them. I don't need them to be explained, they're fine the way they are. But speaking as someone actually familiar with it, the Alien EU largely isn't like that.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:48
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how did the bad aliens game explain hicks surviving btw. as smg pointed out it's completely impossible since alien 3 makes it very obvious it's him and he died.UmOk posted:Some people get really upset about people enjoying EU stuff. you've made a critical mistake. it's not things that are considered "bad" it's things that are "bad".
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Nov 17, 2016 23:12
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AlternateAccount posted:Might be the constant and obnoxious overuse of this smiley that annoys people. I don't really have a dog in this fight about the EU, but your position is just as inane as the one you're complaining about. By it's most fundamental definition, art (of any kind) is a creative expression that engages an audience. It's a cooperative experience, and if anyone comes away with any questions or thoughts related to a piece of work, guess what, it's valid because they are engaging with that work of art. In other words: art is indeed subjective. That's why the 'fake question' thing is so dumb. Scott has artistic license to explore the questions he wants to explore in his film, and what he decides to leave out can be just as important as what he chooses to include. But what he doesn't get to control is how the audience engages with his work; that part is up to them. I mean, you can easily decide that none of the EU content, sequels, prequels, or whatever are worth anything to you and that is perfectly valid. But in this case there are clearly a significant group of people that do want to hear those stories and would like those questions answered and to claim otherwise is pretty myopic.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:14
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nah the fake question thing is legit tho it's more an answer in search of a question or something along those lines. there's no reason to explain if the company knew about the alien ahead of time - it appears the explanation in expanded universe material is they did which makes little sense in the context of the film. so it's answering a question that wasn't raised and also doing so poorly as it ends up being counter to what the film already showed us. and that group of people have bad taste or they never grew up. i probably consumed eu poo poo from a bunch of media i enjoyed when i was a preteen but you eventually grow out of that stuff and grasp why you enjoyed the original work wasn't some weird minutia.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:17
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Groovelord Neato posted:how did the bad aliens game explain hicks surviving btw. as smg pointed out it's completely impossible since alien 3 makes it very obvious it's him and he died. Hicks woke up between Aliens and A3 and found a buncha WY guys boarding the Sulaco and they fight and he tosses one of them into his cryo pod and its that guy that gets smashed and killed in A3. Yup its that dumb
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Nov 17, 2016 23:21
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dear lord.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:39
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The question posed by base was asking about the EU you drat idiots .
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Nov 17, 2016 23:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:and that group of people have bad taste or they never grew up. i probably consumed eu poo poo from a bunch of media i enjoyed when i was a preteen but you eventually grow out of that stuff and grasp why you enjoyed the original work wasn't some weird minutia. I grasp the reasons why I love Alien just fine, you're generalization is way off base. This isn't even a case of actually consuming eu material, its just idle curiosity, I'm sure you've experienced that at least once in your life.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:48
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Groovelord Neato posted:nah the fake question thing is legit tho it's more an answer in search of a question or something along those lines. there's no reason to explain if the company knew about the alien ahead of time - it appears the explanation in expanded universe material is they did which makes little sense in the context of the film. so it's answering a question that wasn't raised and also doing so poorly as it ends up being counter to what the film already showed us. I think it's worth remembering the original question that kicked off this discussion was specifically asking about the EU and the films. Saying his question was a fake question would almost be okay if you were confining the discussion to the events of film Alien. But even if that was the case, it's still a poor way to phrase the argument because art is subjective and by definition any engagement with it is valid engagement.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:51
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oh no that part is fine, i just meant the eu in general. i didn't realize someone had taken issue with someone directly asking a question about what the eu said. i went back and realized it was that angry guy that's wrong a bunch that got this all twisted.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:oh no that part is fine, i just meant the eu in general. i didn't realize someone had taken issue with someone directly asking a question about what the eu said. Someone saw Xenos response to my extremely specific question, then jumped all over him as if he were jerking off to eu stuff for no reason. The whole thing is ridiculous.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:57
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Groovelord Neato posted:dear lord. The best was how a lot of the advertising for the game was like "OH MY GOD HICKS IS ALIVE FIND OUT WHAT'S UP WITH HICKS" and in the actual game there's a cutscene where they're like how are you okay what's going on and he's just like "It's a long story." and if you want to know what happened you had to purchase and short additional downloadable mission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mquByeLRYNM There's an interview somewhere where Michael Beihn talks about what a cynical cash-in poo poo show the entire thing ended up being compared to the writing he voiced in Far Cry: Blood Dragon which he had a lot of fun with with since everyone was having a blast working on it.
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Nov 18, 2016 01:19
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Groovelord Neato posted:how did the bad aliens game explain hicks surviving btw. as smg pointed out it's completely impossible since alien 3 makes it very obvious it's him and he died. You've made a critical mistake. Everything is bad. But people who get their feelings hurt because someone likes something they don't are worse.
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Nov 18, 2016 01:55
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CelticPredator posted:Actually, that horrific piece of trash is on HBO. I might watch it. It's been a while and I have time to kill before seeing Arrival. Trip report: Time has not improved it. Have something else to do on hand while it is on.
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Nov 18, 2016 02:03
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Are you guys saying that Mother detected the signal, issued Special Order 937 to Ash, rerouted the ship, and woke everyone up, all on her own, and the company had nothing to do with it? And that they replaced the human science officer with a robot just before leaving Thedus was sheer coincidence?
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Nov 18, 2016 03:18
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Is Planet of the Vampires worth watching?
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Nov 18, 2016 04:40
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