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Zenos Paradise posted:Which book are Kenku in? This sounds rad as hell. Volos Guide to Monsters. Guy A. Person posted:It seems like a really nice way of saying "don't be a loving annoying weirdo and piss off your friends" which honestly the hobby could use a ton more of We've come a long way from 2e alignment descriptions, which outright encouraged people to be bad party members. "True Neutral: you might switch sides in the middle of a fight to preserve balance." "Chaotic Neutral: you are insane."
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Nov 16, 2016 22:22
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lifg posted:"True Neutral: you might switch sides in the middle of a fight to preserve balance." I still don't understand how anyone accidentally interpreted that as "will change sides during a sword fight". How would that even work? The example it gives is "A true neutral druid might join the local barony to put down a tribe of evil gnolls, only to drop out or switch sides when the gnolls were brought to the brink of destruction." It's pretty clear that the meaning is that the TN character will work towards a general big-picture situation where no side is overall strong enough to dominate another, or at the very least refuse to participate in the total subjugation or genocide of one side.
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Nov 16, 2016 22:38
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Ive always interpreted TN as "ok thats cool but what does it mean to me/the things and people I actually care about". Less NE-esque deliberate selfishness/backstabbing for self gain or gratification, more being a salt of the earth kinda person who looks out for self and kin more than the world at large. So a leader of a tight knit, group of soldiers for hire would be TN. As for sipernatural TN magical people "truth is in the middle of the balance between good and evil"...its just such a bad cliche to use.
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Nov 16, 2016 23:08
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If it helps, remember that alignment was originally a set of literal organized teams to the point where each alignment had their own language.
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Nov 16, 2016 23:28
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Rigged Death Trap posted:As for sipernatural TN magical people "truth is in the middle of the balance between good and evil"...its just such a bad cliche to use. Dumb on an individual level, for sure. Dumb if good and evil are philosphical ideas. Not dumb if (as I understand is the default) total good and total evil are places you can go and beings you can interact with. I can't see how they would not be in constant total war with each other unless there was a reason not to fight, like for example they know that neither of them can ever win because of an equally powerful force that will, by its nature, always intercede on behalf of a side that's starting to lose. ProfessorCirno posted:If it helps, remember that alignment was originally a set of literal organized teams to the point where each alignment had their own language. ...and that good, evil, law, chaos, etc are the original and continuing basis for planes/gods/etc. So adventurers can literally visit a place of absolutely provably always totally lawful evil and fight the creatures that live there. Who aren't people who are lawful evil alignment, but beings created from and bound to the concept of lawful evil itself. e: Which is totally dumb too, but it gave us Planescape so it turns out it's dumb in the best way. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 23:41
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AlphaDog posted:I still don't understand how anyone accidentally interpreted that as "will change sides during a sword fight". How would that even work? *stabs self in own face*
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Nov 16, 2016 23:44
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Rigged Death Trap posted:You shouldnt crow about making bad puns, they drive me raven mad. It makes future jokes hard to swallow, its robin the discussion of any worth, youre probably parroting something someone else said. Thanks for helping us avoid that booby trap.
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Nov 17, 2016 00:07
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Made a yuan-ti pure blood warlock named Voldemort tonight. First thing he does is walk into a tavern and shout "Hello, fellow humans!" Gonna be fun. Went with charlatan, gonna pick up actor and charisma the poo poo out of everything.
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Nov 17, 2016 05:18
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AlphaDog posted:I still don't understand how anyone accidentally interpreted that as "will change sides during a sword fight". How would that even work? Its mostly just another thing for angry people to bitch about regarding a game they didnt play. AlphaDog posted:The example it gives is "A true neutral druid might join the local barony to put down a tribe of evil gnolls, only to drop out or switch sides when the gnolls were brought to the brink of destruction."
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Nov 17, 2016 05:31
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Druids are just weird, man. Who knows why they do things.
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Nov 17, 2016 05:47
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One of these days I'm going to play a Halfling Moon Druid with the Lucky feat just to run a train on the game's expected math. Unfortunately there's not a useful way to work Divination Wizard in there as well.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:17
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Pretty sure that it's explained somewhere, or at least a deeply held belief by in-game groups that if a particular alignment gets too strong, the world will start getting all hosed up and weird (moreso than usual), extraplanar creatures will start popping in more easily, stuff like that, possibly culminating in the entire realm being sucked into an alignment-based outer plane it matches up with. So that's their excuse for keeping things 'balanced' on a macro scale.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:18
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Skellybones posted:Pretty sure that it's explained somewhere, or at least a deeply held belief by in-game groups that if a particular alignment gets too strong, the world will start getting all hosed up and weird (moreso than usual), extraplanar creatures will start popping in more easily, stuff like that, possibly culminating in the entire realm being sucked into an alignment-based outer plane it matches up with. So that's their excuse for keeping things 'balanced' on a macro scale. "But guys, if we make the world too good, we might literally make everyone go to heaven!" "And the problem with this is...?"
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Nov 17, 2016 06:24
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bewilderment posted:"But guys, if we make the world too good, we might literally make everyone go to heaven!" Now you did it you started a war in the upper planes. Good job bewilderment.  (The "sliding plane" thing really kicked off with Planscape. Belief can shape reality and if you can push the core character of a large group/place/entities one way all near the same time the entire construct of that piece of the multiverse will become part of the thing it ALIGNS with. There was a scene in PS:T using this idea.)
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Nov 17, 2016 06:28
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Being sucked into Sugar-Shocked Acid Trip Completely Neutral Good And Everyone Is Smiling Always Universe might be okay if you yourself are that alignment but everyone else will either explode or get forcibly overwritten to match the new reality. Or get eaten by unicorns because they're incompatible. Like Dwarf Fortress.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:31
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Skellybones posted:Pretty sure that it's explained somewhere, or at least a deeply held belief by in-game groups that if a particular alignment gets too strong, the world will start getting all hosed up and weird (moreso than usual), extraplanar creatures will start popping in more easily, stuff like that, possibly culminating in the entire realm being sucked into an alignment-based outer plane it matches up with. So that's their excuse for keeping things 'balanced' on a macro scale. Doesn't that mean that the Neutral alignment is thus, in a fashion, dominant? Interesting coincidence that so long as it's THEIR alignment, it's okay.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:31
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TN was best in 4e when it was "unaligned" and there for peasants to say "Metaphysical ramifications of killing orcs?  "
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Nov 17, 2016 06:33
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Zomborgon posted:Doesn't that mean that the Neutral alignment is thus, in a fashion, dominant? Interesting coincidence that so long as it's THEIR alignment, it's okay. Because the Prime Material is supposed to be a combination of alignment and all the other stuff, standing apart from but still influenced by things such as "The universe made entirely out of fire" and "The universe made entirely out of the metaphysical concept of law". If it was more than tenuously linked to any of them, it would get really weird and unpleasant super fast for almost everyone involved. Neutral is the relatively harmless default, more or less.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:40
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Plus of course everyone believes they're doing the right thing and have found the one true objectively correct way to exist, no poo poo everyone's pulling as hard as they can to achieve it.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:53
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Maybe a demiplane consisting of an intersection between Chaotic Neutral, some Quasielemental Steam and a bit of Negative Energy is the most mathematically correct way to exist but if an ominous organisation is working to suck Faerun into it with 99% casualties for the inhabitants you're still going to beat the poo poo out of them with a series of room by room encounters culminating in a boss battle.
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Nov 17, 2016 06:57
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Mordenkainen one of the original D&D characters was the odd extreme version of neutral as well. He believed that the forces of good, evil, law and chaos would all screw the world up if they were unquestioned, so he ensures that no side is ever vastly more powerful than its counterpart. So he devoted pretty much all of his time into loving things up for those who he think is doing too well. Most of his party (particularly the good ones, but neutral ones and evil ones as well.) eventually realized this was really stupid and went their separate ways from him and are not really on talking terms with him anymore. Though even then Mordenkainen eventually wised up a bit. Feeling that good was too powerful he decided to release a trapped Demon Lord he had heard about and manipulated his friend Robilar into freeing him. However it turned out that it was not a Demon Lord who would go back to the Abyss, but Iuz the Demigod of pain and oppression who resided on the material plane. Who upon being freed went back to his evil empire killed nearly everyone who had lost faith in him during his imprisonment and had a road out of their skulls, then dragged the world into a massive war that he made huge gains on before agreeing to a truce. Mordenkainen realizing he screwed up then devoted most of his live to flipping the scales in the opposite direction to make up for the great evil he brought back into the world.
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Nov 17, 2016 07:08
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Yeah but 'member that Magnificent Mansion? I 'member!
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Nov 17, 2016 07:16
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Yeah, alignments and neutrality as a "balance" hinge really heavily on a particularly tortured idea of morality that has to run alongside the idea that most monsters are literally just always evil but there also has to be some sorta balance between them. Remember that at one point it was literal paladin advice of "if you somehow do manage to convert an orc to good, which can't happen, kill him immediately so he can go to paradise and not risk turning back to evil."
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Nov 17, 2016 07:36
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, alignments and neutrality as a "balance" hinge really heavily on a particularly tortured idea of morality that has to run alongside the idea that most monsters are literally just always evil but there also has to be some sorta balance between them. Really, while the idea behind alignment is rather tortured, it's good enough for resolving the RP problem of a largely combat based system and the usual mix of Good and Neutral party members. Killing Evil things is an Objectively Okay Thing in D&D, so it's fine to go on (well-enough targeted) killing sprees no matter who you are. Doesn't mean it isn't wonky as all hell.
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Nov 17, 2016 07:44
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, alignments and neutrality as a "balance" hinge really heavily on a particularly tortured idea of morality that has to run alongside the idea that most monsters are literally just always evil but there also has to be some sorta balance between them. When I used to run Planescape, I worried about good/evil etc until I decided that labels like that are exactly the sort of thing a clueless Prime or fanatic Petitioner would use, and inevitably get themselves into deep poo poo. If you're thinking of a creature from Mount Celestia as "a good person", you're wrong. It's neither good nor a person. It's a manifestation of the ethics and goals of Mount Celestia. If some idiots who've never been anywhere other than their ball of mud have decided that must mean it aligns with their idea of "good" and "lawful", well... that's their problem. And it will be a problem.
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Nov 17, 2016 07:54
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Then we also have dudes like the Harmonoium and Saint Cuthbert. "The Harmonium believes that peace is a better end than war. If it takes thumping heads to spread the truth, well, the Harmonium's ready to thump heads. Sure, there may not be peace right away, but every time the Harmonium gets rid of an enemy, the multiverse is that much closer to the universal harmony it was meant to have." For Saint Cuthbert these are actual holy words of his "Square corners can be pounded smooth." "Thick heads are not made of glass." "Salvation is better than smart answers." "Some good folk can understand only one thing." "Enlightenment can penetrate even the helm of iron." "Evil which cannot be removed must be eliminated." "Foolishness can be beaten." "Lawful correction lies in a stout billet." "Capricious behavior brings knots to the heads of those lacking wisdom." "Preach quietly, but have a large cudgel handy." MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 08:02
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AlphaDog posted:If you're thinking of a creature from Mount Celestia as "a good person", you're wrong. It's neither good nor a person. It's a manifestation of the ethics and goals of Mount Celestia. If some idiots who've never been anywhere other than their ball of mud have decided that must mean it aligns with their idea of "good" and "lawful", well... that's their problem. And it will be a problem. Sometimes that yugoloth might be the best desperate chance you've got against some big-mission Holy Roller who thinks youre a "part of the design". Plus one LG Powers "law" isnt always another LG Powers "law".
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Nov 17, 2016 08:15
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FRINGE posted:Plus one LG Powers "law" isnt always another LG Powers "law". Here's how I brought the idea home to my group: Mount Celestia is closer* to Baator than it is to Ysgard. Ysgard is closer* to The Abyss than The Abyss is to Baator. *Closer on the diagram of the Great Wheel, which is another way of saying "closer in terms of ethics, morals, goals, and general vibe". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 09:22
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So I'll be playing a one-off character today, and I think I've settled on a wrestler kind of guy. I was thinking of asking the DM for an item that would help with unarmed strikes, or maybe with Strength. Obvious one would be belts, from the DM's Guide, but the 'lowest' one sets STR to 21, which seems high for level 3. He's not going to be based on any specific real wrestler, but general stuff from that, so a lucha mask is another obvious idea, but I don't have something solid off the top of my head. Any suggestions about more specific things to "offer"him? I've mostly settled on Barbarian, for what it's worth, especially if he waives the Exhaustion part of Frenzy, but I'll bring out a Battle Master draft as well, in case I can convince him over some count-as heavy armor. Not really interested in grappling, rules-wise, I figure I can fluff my moves a bit (clothesline for a shove, etc)
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Nov 17, 2016 11:35
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Mind you, Saint Cuthbert literally started as a joke because a cleric in Gygax's game wanted there to be an actual deity he got powers from rather then generically "the gods" so Gygax made a god who was based entirely around beating monsters with a mace in a sort of "ok now shut up and keep playing" kinda thing. Later he added that Cuthbert whacked non-believers with a cudgel to carry on the same joke. In other words, like so much of D&D, it was never meant to be taken nearly as seriously as it ended up being taken.
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Nov 17, 2016 11:38
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Serperoth posted:So I'll be playing a one-off character today, and I think I've settled on a wrestler kind of guy. I was thinking of asking the DM for an item that would help with unarmed strikes, or maybe with Strength. Obvious one would be belts, from the DM's Guide, but the 'lowest' one sets STR to 21, which seems high for level 3. If your DM is cool with it maybe you could reskin an open-hand monk slightly? Sub out the monk unarmored defense for the barb version. Instead of 'ki points' you now have 'finisher points' or something. I think you could totally change the flavor of the class to a wrestler with a few minor tweaks, especially if it's for a relatively low level one shot. This would let you solve the unarmed combat issue, and let you knock people prone, shove them around, or just wail on then using your 'finisher points' Rahul fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 11:51
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Rahul posted:If your DM is cool with it maybe you could reskin an open-hand monk slightly? Sub out the monk unarmored defense for the barb version. Instead of 'ki points' you now have 'finisher points' or something. I think you could totally change the flavor of the class to a wrestler with a few minor tweaks, especially if it's for a relatively low level one shot. This would let you solve the unarmed combat issue, and let you knock people prone, shove them around, or just wail on then using your 'finisher points' Hm, yeah that's a pretty cool option as well, I'll be looking into that. "Free" Tavern Brawler... I'll be checking with him soon about stuff, no need to even change the name of ki points. Flurry of Blows is already damage enough for a proper finisher... Hell, Barbarian gets Rage and Unarmored Defense at level 1, and I don't really need Open Hand all that much, if it comes to that, Monk gets the basic stuff without needing a Tradition. EDIT: And Monk gets Dex for attacks instead of strength, so I get to play up skill more, rather than beef, nice. Serperoth fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 12:26
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Bard also makes a great wrestler.
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Nov 17, 2016 13:32
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Skellybones posted:Bard also makes a great wrestler. Change Vicious Mockery to "Listen up, brother." and summon actual 22 inch pythons.
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Nov 17, 2016 15:38
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I really want to play a Kobold Sorcerer/Warlock (the smartest talkiest blastiest shootiest stabbiest kobold in the world!!) in Adventurer's League, but the fact that it seems like I can't have a 16 Charisma out of the starting gate is making my hardcore optimization brain twitch. Just to be absolutely sure, there's no way to get a 16 Charisma at level 1 unless whatever race I pick has a bonus to Charisma, right? Since I'm in Adventurer's League, I can only use the PHB plus one other sourcebook, in this case Volo's, and I can't use anything out of the Unearthed Arcana articles.
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Nov 17, 2016 20:11
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BetterWeirdthanDead posted:Change Vicious Mockery to "Listen up, brother." and summon actual 22 inch pythons.
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Nov 18, 2016 03:23
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mango sentinel posted:Oh my god next time I DM I'm asking people to cut promos for damage One of my players got the boots of striding and springing as a paladin and was required to queue up the appropriate Slamtrack for when they proceeded to use their powers to lethally dunk on the undead.
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Nov 18, 2016 04:02
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blastron posted:I really want to play a Kobold Sorcerer/Warlock (the smartest talkiest blastiest shootiest stabbiest kobold in the world!!) in Adventurer's League, but the fact that it seems like I can't have a 16 Charisma out of the starting gate is making my hardcore optimization brain twitch. Just to be absolutely sure, there's no way to get a 16 Charisma at level 1 unless whatever race I pick has a bonus to Charisma, right? Since I'm in Adventurer's League, I can only use the PHB plus one other sourcebook, in this case Volo's, and I can't use anything out of the Unearthed Arcana articles. Is the adventurers league strict about when where and what kind of loot you have to give your party? You could beg the DM to very early on give you some magic item that's gives you +2 Cha.
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Nov 18, 2016 05:58
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Play an elf until level 4, then swap over.
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Nov 18, 2016 06:08
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FAT BATMAN posted:Is the adventurers league strict about when where and what kind of loot you have to give your party? You could beg the DM to very early on give you some magic item that's gives you +2 Cha. AL only lets DMs award loot explicitly called out in the adventure. My Wizard lucked the gently caress out in finding a Headband of Intellect at level 3 by happening to show up in the right place at the right time. I suppose I could cheese my way into one by abusing DM Rewards to award one of my characters a level-appropriate magic item, but that involves a lot of DMing random pickup groups to meet arbitrary DM Quest objectives. Perhaps I should suck it up for the sake of playing a fun character.
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Nov 18, 2016 06:59
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