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Andrast posted:Just being male, middle-class and white is generally enough Tell that to the male middle-class white people who got killed in the Iraq war Nevvy Z posted:You seem to be assuming it's the same people. I'm not as sure as you that this is the case. That's fair. Just strange to see the vocal opinion of the forum swing so wildly.
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Nov 17, 2016 20:58
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Andrast posted:Just being male, middle-class and white is usually enough it usually really isn't but that guy's something special
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Nov 17, 2016 20:59
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Furnaceface posted:Call me crazy but I think jettisoning Sanders would probably make the Dems even more unelectable. He is taking a huge gamble on Trump falling face first on his promises to the poor and disenfranchised while reinforcing his commitments to stand up to wall street and put people back to work via government spending. Being that the good old GOP controls Congress independently of Donald, I am extremely confident that exactly nothing will be passed which will help the poor whatsoever.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:00
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:I'll show those liberals! Exactly, it's such a useless argument. The Republicans are congenitally unable to table a bill without stuffing it with entitlement cuts or culture war nonsense and similar poison pills. The congressional tea party alone will see to that, let alone all the other factions. The hypothetical where congressional Republicans and Trump sponsor a genuinely good bill that Democrats might want to support isn't going to happen. Don't worry that St Bernie might compromise the unsoiled spirit of socialism by voting for a Trump bill. It does however give people a chance to rail against the racist element of Trump's support by saying no-one should even appear to collaborate with him, which isn't a terrible thing.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:00
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NewForumSoftware thoughts "Maybe we should all register Republican and change the party from the inside." "Maybe if we all claim to be White on the next Census we can end racism once and for all." "Maybe we can make McDonalds bring back the McRib permanently."
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Nov 17, 2016 21:00
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:There's not really anything wrong with that, but it's a dumbshit political move to come out two months ahead of inauguration as the party of compromise and getting things done by working across the aisle when one of the dude's first moves was to put a white supremacist in charge of strategy As much as I hate it, the press is now a 1-way tool. They can hurt Democrats but they can't help them. The press can and will still eagerly butcher Democrats in congress for making the stand you want. They of course won't give any credit either. Business Gorillas posted:It was actually more of "if people insult me immediately out of the gate why should I bother reconciling them?", which is a lesson the elite really need to learn wrt the working poor, but I see you did a complete 180 and veered back to your sense of smug superiority as fast as humanly possible. Well done! Oh by all means, if this is a segue into political communications, I'll grab it. My tone on SA isn't the one I'd use blockwalking or phone banking for a reason. While shame certainly works as a motivator, it only motivates along value lines. That is, the fliers that say "vote or your neighbors will know you didn't" work. But that's because it aligns with the preexisting values. You can't shame peple with different values than their own into voting. If racial equality isn't an explicit value, it can't be used to shame someone into voting. Now an absence of the value of racial equality isn't the same as being racist, even as that fact further entrenches racism. But many many people don't understand and share the value. So it fails to motivate those that don't. Same for the other tenets of equality in gender, orientation and so on. So yes, it's obvious shaming the working poor into voting wasn't going to work, but it's also clear that the Clinton campaign wasn't trying to do that. I'm not saying I think they were doing anything else, but as poo poo is making clear, they either had bad data and/or made horrible campaigning and ground game decisions. I think the Clinton campaign lost, yes due to leaving out economic messaging but the reason why is more critical for 2020 and beyond. They underestimated the pluralistic weaknesses of the Democratic coalition. ( I trace those weaknesses back to anemic pressure from the Left because of the crippling of Leftwing ideology. But this post is long enough.)
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Nov 17, 2016 21:00
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:it usually really isn't but that guy's something special We need to be more diverse as a party and furthermore *falls out of chair*
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Nov 17, 2016 21:01
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NewForumSoftware posted:Tell that to the male middle-class white people who got killed in the Iraq war Two back to back shitshows, first the moderation one then the endless smugfest about trump winning by people who didn't even want trump to win, tends to have that effect. (being, a bunch of people gave up on posting in uspol)
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Nov 17, 2016 21:01
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Pollyanna posted:What do we lose in exchange for that? Because allying wth fascism is always a moral tradeoff. Trump is considered the greatest president since FDR and gets to add his head to Rushmore. What if it was only that?
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Nov 17, 2016 21:02
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NewForumSoftware posted:Yeah I'm aware that if I make any sort of effort post it will be met with meaningless shitposting but I mean, can't you at least add some flavor? Because it's the height of moronic false equivalency between a normal politician and someone who is massively out of the mainstream of US and world politics.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:03
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Whatever happened to the house of un-american activities or whatever it's called, did they cancel it?
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Nov 17, 2016 21:04
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XyrlocShammypants posted:"Maybe we can make McDonalds bring back the McRib permanently."  I'm honestly curious how many people in this thread didn't vote for Bernie in the primary if they're American.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:04
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I didn't because a bernie supporter called me old in a US Pol thread. For realz
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Nov 17, 2016 21:05
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DSLAM posted:Whatever happened to the house of un-american activities or whatever it's called, did they cancel it? i'm wondering if they could even figure out how to run it, considering the pentagon and the state department are currently wondering where trump is
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Nov 17, 2016 21:05
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DSLAM posted:Whatever happened to the house of un-american activities or whatever it's called, did they cancel it? HUAC? Oh that's coming back, bet on it.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:05
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NewForumSoftware posted:Tell that to the male middle-class white people who got killed in the Iraq war Things leads to another good point: Everything Trump is doing is going to be in hindsight of Bush. The public is not going to fall for "there were WMDs" twice, especially since he campaigned against another Bush.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:06
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So is it impossible to vote no on internment camps and yes on student loan forgiveness or these issues somehow quantum entangled?
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Nov 17, 2016 21:07
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Andrast posted:Just being male, middle-class and white is usually enough Pretty much everyone who's not rich is gonna get hosed one way or another
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Nov 17, 2016 21:07
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Things leads to another good point: Everything Trump is doing is going to be in hindsight of Bush. The public is not going to fall for "there were WMDs" twice, especially since he campaigned against another Bush. I mean, this is the public that fell for "Donald Trump the New York reality TV star and real estate mogul will defeat globalization, deport the Mexicans, and give me the '50s back." Excuse me if I don't have as much faith in that as you seem to.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:07
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Things leads to another good point: Everything Trump is doing is going to be in hindsight of Bush. The public is not going to fall for "there were WMDs" twice, especially since he campaigned against another Bush. Much how Gulf of Tonkin and Iran-Contra kept us our if Iraq.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:08
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Building a "wall" is dumb unless it extends 500 feet underground as well, have you heard about El Chapo's tunneling engineers that put all the WWI tunnelers to shame? A fence would serve the same purpose (and just be a nuisance to migrating reptiles)
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Nov 17, 2016 21:08
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Mr. Belding posted:So is it impossible to vote no on internment camps and yes on student loan forgiveness or these issues somehow quantum entangled? It seems the general consensus is that anything good accomplished by Trump would not be worth whatever the cost because it would "legitimize" him note, I don't know what that means
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Nov 17, 2016 21:08
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NewForumSoftware posted:I'm not implying that, I'm saying if he has specific policy goals that align with progressives what's wrong with supporting them (assuming they aren't bundled with a bunch of horrific poo poo) Yeah why not assume up is down while we're at it.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:08
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Mr. Belding posted:So is it impossible to vote no on internment camps and yes on student loan forgiveness or these issues somehow quantum entangled? Depends on how Republicans write the bills. So yes, they can make the Make Education Great Again Act and include "Muslim American Education Proccessing Centers" as part of it and force Dems to pick a side.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:09
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lol if you think the current GOP will ever, under any circumstances, back something like student loan forgiveness
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Nov 17, 2016 21:09
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Keyser S0ze posted:Building a "wall" is dumb unless it extends 500 feet underground as well, have you heard about El Chapo's tunneling engineers that put all the WWI tunnelers to shame? They catapult drugs over the existing walls anyway.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:10
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FAUXTON posted:Yeah why not assume up is down while we're at it. Look if it is I'll be the first to say we shouldn't compromise when it comes to things like internment camps and if Bernie does I'll be the first to call him out as poo poo. But as it is, saying you're willing to help take down corporate america doesn't really make Bernie a white supremacist in my eyes. mcmagic posted:Because it's the height of moronic false equivalency between a normal politician and someone who is massively out of the mainstream of US and world politics. How many establishment GOP figures/policies are you going to need to see involved before you'll accept he's just a Republican who ran on a crazy platform.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:10
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Trabisnikof posted:They catapult drugs over the existing walls anyway. Build a glass bubble
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Nov 17, 2016 21:11
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UV_Catastrophe posted:lol if you think the current GOP will ever, under any circumstances, back something like student loan forgiveness If they use federal education funds to pay the banks off for 100% of the value, that's a win for the banks and an excuse to cut education funding for real programs while being smug about not cutting a dime of education funding. Sounds win-win to me!
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Nov 17, 2016 21:12
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Schmeichy posted:Build a glass bubble We'll need a dome or solar-shield anyway about a year after EPA director Sarah Palin takes her seat.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:13
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I'm not against Tim Ryan's run but I dont think he has a chance to win.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:14
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NewForumSoftware posted:It seems the general consensus is that anything good accomplished by Trump would not be worth whatever the cost because it would "legitimize" him It means that if the Dems do vote for what appears to be a good bill and it collapses under the Executive's incompetence, they will be blamed. "The infrastructure bill would have been a great success, a great success, but the Democrats and the media sabotaged it, very unfairly." gently caress them. Filibuster every bill, and if they get rid of it vote against it.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:14
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The Republicans effectively fought against every dump Obama took and NFS's grand strategy involves working with Trump and helping to make him seem like someone capable of getting things done and maybe even things that don't make Americans want to vomit.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:14
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Mr. Belding posted:So is it impossible to vote no on internment camps and yes on student loan forgiveness or these issues somehow quantum entangled? If student loan forgiveness gets passed during a Trump presidency and internment camps don't, then four years from now all the Trump voters are going to say "see, I told you he was just posturing and wasn't really racist" and "see, I told you he'd fix the economy, unlike those idiot Dems who couldn't do a single successful progressive thing in eight whole years". And then they'll reelect him, because in this hypothetical future, he passed progressive economic measures while not getting any racist policies passed. I'd rather not be complicit in making Donald J. Trump the best president for the country in decades.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:15
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I dated Dean and married Kerry. My name is Theresa Heinz Kerry.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:17
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Main Paineframe posted:If student loan forgiveness gets passed during a Trump presidency and internment camps don't, then four years from now all the Trump voters are going to say "see, I told you he was just posturing and wasn't really racist" and "see, I told you he'd fix the economy, unlike those idiot Dems who couldn't do a single successful progressive thing in eight whole years". I'd rather not be complicit in making Donald J. Trump the best president for the country in decades. On the flip side, isn't there an amount of progress worth the cultural and social implications of Trump the Great? Alternatively we should get as much progress as we can then Woodward & Bernstein him so he can become the smug choice of college Republicans who want to be "shocking" but be able to explain it away as "but only Trump could have gotten the ERA passed before he fled the country with all the gold in Fort Knox, which was shameful of course"
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Nov 17, 2016 21:19
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Keyser S0ze posted:Building a "wall" is dumb unless it extends 500 feet underground as well, have you heard about El Chapo's tunneling engineers that put all the WWI tunnelers to shame? The entire concept of deportation and building a wall is preposterous as well as racist. How many poor natural born citizens who don't have the means to prove their citizenship shall we deport? How many citizens will we discriminate against based on how they look? The wall meanwhile is a total farce. Most of the border is already fenced and patrolled by Haliburton drones. Yes, Haliburton. Meanwhile we're at the levels of immigration we we're at in 1961, the immigration flow with Mexico is trending towards Mexico, not here. It's the ultimate tilting at windmills initiative. It wouldn't do anything about the drugs, it would destroy countless American citizens' property and it would do massive damage to the environment.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:20
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Trabisnikof posted:If they use federal education funds to pay the banks off for 100% of the value, that's a win for the banks and an excuse to cut education funding for real programs while being smug about not cutting a dime of education funding. Yeah, that's fair. I guess the question is whether or not they're smart and disciplined enough to do things like this. I could see the freedom caucus people trying to torpedo legislation like this to try and score points with republican primary voters who think it sounds just too darn liberal. Similar to how the tea party faction snatched defeat from the jaws of victory after rejecting an offer that included social security cuts during the debt ceiling thing. Who knows 
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Nov 17, 2016 21:20
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Trabisnikof posted:On the flip side, isn't there an amount of progress worth the cultural and social implications of Trump the Great? Have you seen the people surrounding him? They're the worst regressive shitheads in existence. There is no progress in a Trump administration, that ratchet only goes one way.
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Nov 17, 2016 21:20
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Lightning Knight posted:The entire concept of deportation and building a wall is preposterous as well as racist. How many poor natural born citizens who don't have the means to prove their citizenship shall we deport? How many citizens will we discriminate against based on how they look? gotta save something for the reelection campaign
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Nov 17, 2016 21:22
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