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Condiv posted:why is tom hanks getting the medal of freedom? Because it is a civilian award for cultural and non-military achievements in America.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:21
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NewForumSoftware posted:Yeah and if the little power you have right now means you can shut down the government, is it worth it to throw a wrench into the system to prove a point while millions suffer? Unfortunately ~25% of the country have already made sure that the political system is already going to hurt millions and there is little we can do to stop it.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:21
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Let me give an unironic tip-of-the-hat to the altright for coming up with absolutely brilliant "Hillary will start a nuclear war with Russia if elected". It's one of those lies that is just so unbelievably stupid, so bullshit, that it MUST be believed cause it just feels so good. It's the only way to make voting for Trump acceptable. Of course it's okay to vote for the idiot reality TV crook! Who cares if he turns the country into a bad joke? He won't start a nuclear war. We got loving Goldwatered. Nice one fascists, but the upside for us is that you already used your magic bullet. We've been paying attention - and we'll be ready with Big Lies of our own next time. Of course, with the way things are looking, they might not have to be lies at all...
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Nov 17, 2016 22:21
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NewForumSoftware posted:You mean perfectly happy to compromise to save the livelihoods of millions? I mean I don't really disagree with the sentiment but it's weird to see you say that when you were all aboard the "neoliberals don't really help minorities, gently caress compromising with them" train before.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:22
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mcmagic posted:How did it work out for the GOP when they refused to give Obama any victories? Think they regret it? Obama was elected twice.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:23
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Glazier posted:Unfortunately ~25% of the country have already made sure that the political system is already going to hurt millions and there is little we can do to stop it. So make it worse? If the option is lower taxes for everyone(even the rich) or shut down the government I don't see how you justify not taking the deal. Shutting down the government would be an unmitigated disaster in which everybody loses, and the poor lose the hardest.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:23
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Fojar38 posted:Obama was elected twice. All the while decimating his party at every level.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:23
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Fojar38 posted:So are people itt actually arguing that Bernie should have said "We will oppose everything that President Trump will try to do, even things that we agree with, because we hate him" thinking that would be a winning political strategy? Why are they bringing up the absurd hypothetical really good ideas Donald Trump might have, when Donald Trump himself isn't offering these ideas, except to legitimize his completely awful ones? I will accept "Democrats are just that loving dumb" as an answer
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Nov 17, 2016 22:24
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I don't really disagree with the sentiment but it's weird to see you say that when you were all aboard the "neoliberals don't really help minorities, gently caress compromising with them" train before. There's a difference between elections and actually running the country, it's pragmatic to oppose neoliberal leadership in the Democratic party, it's not pragmatic to shut down the government because DJT is a fascist, even if it's true. I'm a cynic and a realist, I live in California so my vote in the general didn't matter but I would have voted Hillary no problem if I lived in a swing state. The idea that I'm an uncompromising person is just the result of my rhetoric.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:24
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NewForumSoftware posted:There's a difference between elections and actually running the country, it's pragmatic to oppose neoliberal leadership in the Democratic party, it's not pragmatic to shut down the government because DJT is a fascist, even if it's true So do we keep going along with it even if they go for a "send Muslims to camps/deport Mexicans/national stop and frisk" play too because those are on the table atm.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:25
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mcmagic posted:All the while decimating his party at every level. Republicans are smart and deeply understood that their constituents would never trust a black man. So they took their time, quietly tunneling underneath the democrats, waiting for the perfect moment to set off the TNT and make the party collapse in on itself.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:26
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mcmagic posted:All the while decimating his party at every level. The Dems held the senate until 2014 and they only lost it then because they tried to distance themselves from Obama.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:26
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Lightning Knight posted:So do we keep going along with it even if they go for a "send Muslims to camps/deport Mexicans/national stop and frisk" play too because those are on the table atm. I mean... I really don't know, I guess? At that point you're talking about serious civil unrest and I mean, you might be headed for government shutdown regardless. There's a non-zero chance that everything goes to poo poo and there's nothing we can do to stop it. But part of preventing that is doing the little we can to affect progressive policy while the GOP runs the show for at least 2 more years.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:27
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Why are they bringing up the absurd hypothetical really good ideas Donald Trump might have, when Donald Trump himself isn't offering these ideas, except to legitimize his completely awful ones? How is he legitimizing Trump's horrible ideas by saying "Sure we'll work against Wall Street if he's up for it?" By treating Trump as though he's President Elect? I have some bad news.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:27
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comingafteryouall posted:Republicans are smart and deeply understood that their constituents would never trust a black man. So they took their time, quietly tunneling underneath the democrats, waiting for the perfect moment to set off the TNT and make the party collapse in on itself. Trump is going to come into office with a mid 30s approval rating. Any victories the Dems give him will just give him more political capital to do the horrific other things he wants to do and destroy their chances in the midterms and 2020.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:28
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Fojar38 posted:So are people itt actually arguing that Bernie should have said "We will oppose everything that President Trump will try to do, even things that we agree with, because we hate him" thinking that would be a winning political strategy? Maybe Bernie could have done neither and not said anything at all either way about potential willingness to work with a Trump administration, at least until we at least see how many white supremacists are going to end up in his cabinet. The Dems blamed the GOP for Obama's failures to do things, and just look at how well that strategy worked - the GOP won big in Congress on the promise of more obstruction, and crippled the Dems in 2016. A Wizard of Goatse posted:Why are they bringing up the absurd hypothetical really good ideas Donald Trump might have, when Donald Trump himself isn't offering these ideas, except to legitimize his completely awful ones? Because Bernie did.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:28
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iospace posted:Nah, WI still wins, with NC being a close second. We elected Walker three times, and our only victories were electing Baldwin over Thompson in 2012 and voting for Obama. nc dems actually managed to win a few statewide races which puts them well ahead of wi or fl
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Nov 17, 2016 22:28
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iospace posted:In other news: Holy gently caress, I would have thought she'd gotten a loving medal of honor or something by now for discovering the first computer bug.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:28
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mcmagic posted:Trump is going to come into office with a mid 30s approval rating. Any victories the Dems give him will just give him more political capital to do the horrific other things he wants to do and destroy their chances in the midterms and 2020. Lesser of two evils is actually a legitimate argument when it comes to "should we do X or not X". Whether or not you want to admit it, fighting DJT tooth and nail obstructionist style would be a humanitarian disaster and it would be hard not to hold the Democrats at least partially responsible for that. Seriously, there is a shocking amount of policy and legislation that needs to be re-approved all the time. If the Democrats stop this on principal (which they won't, so don't worry) it would be a disaster. Advocating it just displays ignorance of how our political system works.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:29
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NewForumSoftware posted:I mean... I really don't know, I guess? At that point you're talking about serious civil unrest and I mean, you might be headed for government shutdown regardless. There's a non-zero chance that everything goes to poo poo and there's nothing we can do to stop it. But part of preventing that is doing the little we can to affect progressive policy while the GOP runs the show for at least 2 more years. I think we're in uncharted territory here. Bush came in as a relatively harmless idiot. 9/11 gave him power to do terrible things. Trump is coming in already terrible out of the gate. I don't think we should take obstructionism off the table when we really can't predict how bad it will get or how fast we get to the breaking point.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:29
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Main Paineframe posted:The Dems blamed the GOP for Obama's failures to do things, and just look at how well that strategy worked - the GOP won big in Congress on the promise of more obstruction The Democrats held the Senate for 6 years and the White House for 8 when the Republican platform was "obstruct everything."
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Nov 17, 2016 22:29
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NewForumSoftware posted:There's a difference between elections and actually running the country, it's pragmatic to oppose neoliberal leadership in the Democratic party, it's not pragmatic to shut down the government because DJT is a fascist, even if it's true. Actually dude if the Republicans start putting undocumented immigrants in internment camps I'm pretty sure "shutting down the government" is a good idea
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Nov 17, 2016 22:29
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Lightning Knight posted:I think we're in uncharted territory here. Bush came in as a relatively harmless idiot. 9/11 gave him power to do terrible things. Trump is coming in already terrible out of the gate. I don't think we should take obstructionism off the table when we really can't predict how bad it will get or how fast we get to the breaking point. I don't think anyone is suggesting that obstructionism be taken off the table, but declaring obstructionism this early would be self-defeating.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:30
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NewForumSoftware posted:Lesser of two evils is actually a legitimate argument when it comes to "should we do X or not X". Whether or not you want to admit it, fighting DJT tooth and nail obstructionist style would be a humanitarian disaster and it would be hard not to hold the Democrats at least partially responsible for that. The voters will blame the party that controls the white house. It would not be a disaster if Trump is unable to pass 1 law in the next 4 years. That would actually be pretty great.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:30
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Fojar38 posted:I don't think anyone is suggesting that obstructionism be taken off the table, but declaring obstructionism this early would be self-defeating. I don't disagree in principle. I just have no faith that they'll actually stand up to Republicans at any point and declaring they've already capitulated doesn't inspire anymore confidence in that regard.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:31
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the black husserl posted:Actually dude if the Republicans start putting undocumented immigrants in internment camps I'm pretty sure "shutting down the government" is a good idea Lightning Knight posted:I think we're in uncharted territory here. Bush came in as a relatively harmless idiot. 9/11 gave him power to do terrible things. Trump is coming in already terrible out of the gate. I don't think we should take obstructionism off the table when we really can't predict how bad it will get or how fast we get to the breaking point. Like I said, there's a non-zero chance that the government collapses in on itself regardless of what we do. But I still don't see how shutting down the government does anything with internment camps. That's the sort of spending that will continue in the event of a "government shutdown". The things that will go will be millions of jobs, federal grants, social programs, etc. You have to at least be a little pragmatic about this. Shutting down the government achieves nothing. Obstructionism doesn't work for the left, only the right. mcmagic posted:The voters will blame the party that controls the white house. It would not be a disaster if Trump is unable to pass 1 law in the next 4 years. That would actually be pretty great. Again, political ignorance. If no bills go through congress tens of millions will suffer. It will not be celebrated as a victory by any significant portion of the Democratic base, and rightfully so.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:32
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mcmagic posted:Trump is going to come into office with a mid 30s approval rating. Any victories the Dems give him will just give him more political capital to do the horrific other things he wants to do and destroy their chances in the midterms and 2020. The opposite is also true though, since he can go into 2020 ranting on how he's anti-establishment. You know who else gets hurt by destroying social security and medicare? Poor rural whites. Just wait until they see him acting at the beck and call of the rest of the GOP.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:33
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the black husserl posted:Actually dude if the Republicans start putting undocumented immigrants in internment camps I'm pretty sure "shutting down the government" is a good idea Well we wouldn't want to hurt millions of white people just to make a point. NFS, third wayism is done, "we go high" is done; from now on the, metaphorical, knives are out.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:33
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mcmagic posted:The voters will blame the party that controls the white house. It would not be a disaster if Trump is unable to pass 1 law in the next 4 years. That would actually be pretty great. Unless he really gets into it with Paul Ryan and co., let's face it, that's not happening, so this really looks like the setup for the legislative Democrats' inevitable total surrender on all points
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Nov 17, 2016 22:33
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't disagree in principle. I just have no faith that they'll actually stand up to Republicans at any point and declaring they've already capitulated doesn't inspire anymore confidence in that regard. They haven't capitulated. What they're doing is shielding themselves from the failures that they know are coming. If they declared right now "we'll obstruct Trump" it would be laughably easy for Trump and the GOP to pass blame to the Democrats for the shitshow of an administration that's coming. By saying they'll work with him on good things they're covered when things go south and can say "Well hey we said we'd work with them but this administration is just so bad." This is seriously like politicking 101
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Nov 17, 2016 22:34
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Crowsbeak posted:Suggests enemies want to victimize minorities, proceeds to victimize minorities. Trabs "concern" is obviously a smokescreen for fygm. Honestly at this point it's pretty obvious all the Hillbots got their tiny neoliberal brains boggled
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Nov 17, 2016 22:34
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Glazier posted:Well we wouldn't want to hurt millions of white people just to make a point. NFS, third wayism is done, "we go high" is done; from now on the, metaphorical, knives are out. Millions of white people? Dude you have a severe lack of understand as to what a government shutdown would entail and who it would impact. If you take the knives out and kill your base it will not matter in 4 years. This is not third wayism bro, I'm way to the left of any Democrat, this is about being pragmatic given our options.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:35
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:The opposite is also true though, since he can go into 2020 ranting on how he's anti-establishment. Until the narrative takes hold that he's only doing that because that's what he wants them to think, you wait, he'll totally change for his second term when he doesn't have to worry about being re-elected!!!!
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Nov 17, 2016 22:35
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Mnoba posted:It's pretty hilarious actually, so what was the point of the media to paint Bannon as a nazi anyway the DNC tell them to do it? Did the media fake his entire history with Breitbart?
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Nov 17, 2016 22:35
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the black husserl posted:Actually dude if the Republicans start putting undocumented immigrants in internment camps I'm pretty sure "shutting down the government" is a good idea look if we play the game and don't look like obstructionists maybe we can negotiate that only 9/10 of the immigrants get put in camps, and that's better than nothing, right? Oh, he wants em all? Oh well, we really tried, you guys, but sometimes you just gotta play the game and wait for your next opportunity! Fojar38 posted:They haven't capitulated. What they're doing is shielding themselves from the failures that they know are coming. If they declared right now "we'll obstruct Trump" it would be laughably easy for Trump and the GOP to pass blame to the Democrats for the shitshow of an administration that's coming. By saying they'll work with him on good things they're covered when things go south and can say "Well hey we said we'd work with them but this administration is just so bad." hm yes instead they should get out in front on publicly aligning themselves with the Know-Nothing throwback with the 55% unfavorable rating in his loving honeymoon period, truly this chess is 11-dimensional A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 22:35
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:look if we play the game and don't look like obstructionists maybe we can negotiate that only 9/10 of the immigrants get put in camps, and that's better than nothing, right? What is the better option? Are any of you even going to pretend to address the humanitarian disaster a government shutdown would entail?
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Nov 17, 2016 22:36
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Nov 17, 2016 22:37
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the black husserl posted:Actually dude if the Republicans start putting undocumented immigrants in internment camps I'm pretty sure "shutting down the government" is a good idea everyone seemed fine with it when it was just ICE black sites
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Nov 17, 2016 22:38
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:The opposite is also true though, since he can go into 2020 ranting on how he's anti-establishment. Yeah, I can't wait until they start to lame Obama for creating such a mess for President Trump to fix! Yeesh!
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Nov 17, 2016 22:38
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fits my needs posted:Yeah, I can't wait until they start to lame Obama for creating such a mess for President Trump to fix! Yeesh! This will work for about 6 months.
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Nov 17, 2016 22:39
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