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Literally none of this matters unless you can offer a more compelling path forward that offers better results. This isn't an election any more, you're way better off attempting to moderate the country from the inside than you are to scream loudly as it burns from the outside. Or to put it quite simply, how would you have stopped Hitler?
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Nov 17, 2016 23:13
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NewForumSoftware posted:Literally none of this matters unless you can offer a more compelling path forward that offers better results. This isn't an election any more, you're way better off attempting to moderate the country from the inside than you are to scream loudly as it burns from the outside. There is no compelling path forward and there is no option for a "good" result. The only options are matters of degree, specifically, to what degree we can impede Trump's progress and minimize harm. If he literally cannot recruit any staff at all he will not be able to propose legislation or get anything accomplished. If he cannot recruit any competent staff his agenda will collapse and his movement will collapse into infighting.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:15
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Acid Haze posted:Ok, yes. That, right there, was a huge, huge failure. It was really embarrassing in addition. Who the hell was gonna run instead though? Like completely honest what high profile Democrat politicians had a chance in hell of winning in 2010? Or in 2018, for that matter. I guess Russ could run for governor now. 
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Nov 17, 2016 23:15
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Fojar38 posted:A) Which friendly governors and mayors? https://www.rga.org/ http://www.usmayors.org/about/republican.asp quote:B) Which judges sign off on this? http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/ quote:C) When did Arpaio get confirmed as Secretary of Homeland Security? Fillibuster is gone day one, every Republican votes "Aye" quote:D) When and how does Congress allocate a budget to build said tent city? This issue is declared an emergency situation, by Executive Order DHS is allowed to spend without congressional authorization for the duration of the emergency. quote:E) How do these blatantly unconstitutional actions pass SCOTUS? In a 5-4 decision the Supreme Court today ruled that the rights outlined in the Constitution only apply to those who are citizens or Permanent Residents of the United States. The majority opinion written by Chief Justice Roberts with concurring opinions from Associate Justices Alito, Cruz and Moore, rules that only those who have a legal right to be in the country are considered under it's "jurisdiction". quote:F) Clearly they'd just invade Mexico No need, the US will seize remittances and cripple their economy. NewForumSoftware posted:Or to put it quite simply, how would you have stopped Hitler? Bullet to the head, or at the very least a public beat down every time he started spouting fascist poo poo.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There is no compelling path forward and there is no option for a "good" result. The only options are matters of degree, specifically, to what degree we can impede Trump's progress and minimize harm. That's fine, but how do you get from where we are now to there? Do you really think the government will stop running for lack of people willing to do the job? I wish desperately that's true but I have significant doubts given a decent amount of the population just voted for the guy.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:16
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NewForumSoftware posted:Literally none of this matters unless you can offer a more compelling path forward that offers better results. This isn't an election any more, you're way better off attempting to moderate the country from the inside than you are to scream loudly as it burns from the outside. You are wrong. If Donald Trump is a dangerous person with nefarious goals in mind, who can achieve these nefarious goals if he has public support, and who can obtain this public support if he's seen favorably, then you should do everything you can to make him look unfavorably. You are, as they say, missing the forest for the trees. To answer your Hitler analogy, you're basically saying that the correct progressive move would have been to help Hitler give white germans universal healthcare. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 23:16
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Lightning Knight posted:Who the hell was gonna run instead though? Like completely honest what high profile Democrat politicians had a chance in hell of winning in 2010? Or in 2018, for that matter. It's not about individual candidates the democrats have to nationalize the midterms in 2018. The checks and balances argument against an unpopular president works.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:16
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Glazier posted:No need, the US will seize remittances and cripple their economy. Which will drive even more violence and crossings at the border, further justifying increased crackdowns. 
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Nov 17, 2016 23:17
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Pedro De Heredia posted:You are wrong. Making him look unfavorable and negotiating for the least bad options are not mutually exclusive. Unless you are willing to take up arms any sort of ideological stance you stake your ground on is generally worthless. We should pursue whatever option minimizes harm and not sacrifice that in the name of ideological purity.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:17
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mcmagic posted:It's not about individual candidates the democrats have to nationalize the midterms in 2018. The checks and balances argument against an unpopular president works. I mean, Hillary seems like the illustrative example that candidates do matter. Cory Booker would've dumpstered Trump. Edit: this is not an endorsement of Booker's politics, just his charisma.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:17
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NewForumSoftware posted:That's fine, but how do you get from where we are now to there? Do you really think the government will stop running for lack of people willing to do the job? I wish desperately that's true but I have significant doubts given a decent amount of the population just voted for the guy. I don't see how we get anywhere. It may be that the only useful question at this point is "how does each of us live with ourselves and our own actions." At the systematic level everything's already gone toxic; the inmates are running the asylum. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 23:18
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, Hillary seems like the illustrative example that candidates do matter. Cory Booker would dumpstered Trump. No he wouldn't have. He would've been just as terrible a candidate as she was. But I'm talking about midterm elections.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:18
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NewForumSoftware posted:Making him look unfavorable and negotiating for the least bad options are not mutually exclusive. They are.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:19
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mcmagic posted:No he wouldn't have. He would've been just as terrible a candidate as she was. But I'm talking about midterm elections. That seems silly on its face. He doesn't have nearly as high profile of a public record and he is much more inspiring of a speaker. His campaign would have been unlikely to have been run by the same stupid people. Like I don't like Cory Booker but this election and Obama seem like strong proof that records of accomplishment and policy matters way less than perceived delivery and authenticity as a candidate.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:20
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't see how we get anywhere. Honestly, that may have been the only question worth asking this whole time. Truthfully my honest recommendation to people is leave red states/areas if you live in them. We're probably going to see state and local crackdowns on minorities unlike anything we've seen in recent history. It does look like many "liberal" cities do not plan on enforcing this in any way shape or form though. Time will tell. Either way the Federal government is probably not going to be there to step in and protect the people, which means your state and local governments will become much more important over the coming years. Pedro De Heredia posted:They are. Well then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:20
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It depends on whether Booker would have used ADA.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:21
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NewForumSoftware posted:Honestly, that may have been the only question worth asking this whole time. Truthfully my honest recommendation to people is leave red states/areas if you live in them. We're probably going to see state and local crackdowns on minorities unlike anything we've seen in recent history. It does look like many "liberal" cities do not plan on enforcing this in any way shape or form though. Time will tell. Either way the Federal government is probably not going to be there to step in and protect the people, which means your state and local governments will become much more important over the coming years. You do realize that they are almost all Republican at this point right?
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Nov 17, 2016 23:22
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Wow literally every Republican governor and mayor signs on with the "Yes please put people whose ethnic group I'm hoping will vote for me in concentration camps" act of 2017? And the ACLU pushes it to SCOTUS quote:Fillibuster is gone day one, every Republican votes "Aye" They have said they aren't doing this already. quote:This issue is declared an emergency situation, by Executive Order DHS is allowed to spend without congressional authorization for the duration of the emergency. The executive can't order the executive emergency powers, it literally has to go through congress. This holds true even in Nuclear loving War. quote:In a 5-4 decision the Supreme Court today ruled that the rights outlined in the Constitution only apply to those who are citizens or Permanent Residents of the United States. The majority opinion written by Chief Justice Roberts with concurring opinions from Associate Justices Alito, Cruz and Moore, rules that only those who have a legal right to be in the country are considered under it's "jurisdiction". Hmm another justice dies and a pair of hated outsiders with few GOP credentials all get confirmed by the senate and pass fillibuster, boy that sure is convenient.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:22
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the black husserl posted:been paying attention - and we'll be ready with Big Lies of our own next time. Of course, with the way things are looking, they might not have to be lies at all...
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Nov 17, 2016 23:22
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Glazier posted:You do realize that they are almost all Republican at this point right? Not where I live. Moved in 2011 out of a red state/city and never looked back. Best decision I ever made. Honestly like living in an entirely different country. Tax increases pass, people support their common man, it's really crazy stuff.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:22
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Saying "the other side is bad!" isn't a winning strategy anymore though. Creating insular realities with their own fiction about the other side is the new game.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:23
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NewForumSoftware posted:We should pursue whatever option minimizes harm and not sacrifice that in the name of ideological purity. Your option won't minimize harm, though.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:24
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Who What Now posted:Your option won't minimize harm, though. Tell me what my option is and why it doesn't. Because I'm pretty sure you have no idea. Congratulations on taking boner confessor's place as obstinate troll making no point of his own
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Nov 17, 2016 23:25
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Saying "the other side is bad!" isn't a winning strategy anymore though. lock her up?
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Nov 17, 2016 23:25
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Lightning Knight posted:Cory Booker would've dumpstered Trump. His chances were around MOM's.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:27
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Fojar38 posted:Which judges that are currently on the Supreme Court do you think would sign off on concentration camps? What constitutional interpretation allows for Mexico-Muslim Concentration Camps? Japanese internment camps literally were concentration camps
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Nov 17, 2016 23:27
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Fojar38 posted:Wow literally every Republican governor and mayor signs on with the "Yes please put people whose ethnic group I'm hoping will vote for me in concentration camps" act of 2017? Yep, because even if they are a minority they will want to prove they are one of "the good ones". quote:And the ACLU pushes it to SCOTUS Filibuster is gone dude, stop pretending it will be a factor, McConnell is a loving liar. quote:The executive can't order the executive emergency powers, it literally has to go through congress. This holds true even in Nuclear loving War. Already done, in the case of national emergency the Executive is effectively all powerful.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:29
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Has anyone mentioned that Jared Kushner is now trying to become an official part of the Trump cabinet? Because lol. Somehow he and his attorneys don't think that would be a conflict of interest.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:30
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:His chances were around MOM's. I mean honestly I don't know that anyone could've beaten Trump outside of a vacuum. There's a million different problems and chief among them is that any Democrat had to either try and run away from the sitting President or run as status quo is good. Still, the argument that "Hillary lost because Hillary bad" implies that individual candidates matter and that better candidates are key to victory.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:30
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deathbysnusnu posted:Creating insular realities with their own fiction about the other side is the new game. FlamingLiberal posted:Has anyone mentioned that Jared Kushner is now trying to become an official part of the Trump cabinet? Because lol. Somehow he and his attorneys don't think that would be a conflict of interest.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:31
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean honestly I don't know that anyone could've beaten Trump outside of a vacuum. There's a million different problems and chief among them is that any Democrat had to either try and run away from the sitting President or run as status quo is good. Still, the argument that "Hillary lost because Hillary bad" implies that individual candidates matter and that better candidates are key to victory. Literally any non Hillary candidate would have won. Trump was not some master of political judo. He was and remains a historically bad candidate who was only victorious because he ran against the second-least-liked candidate in political history, and even then he only won due to a technicality of the voting process, not some general principle. It's incredibly tempting to assume out general principles from Trump's victory but it's as invalid as arguing that coins just naturally come down heads every time because there's more metal on the other side. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Nov 17, 2016 |
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Nov 17, 2016 23:32
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Glazier posted:Yep, because even if they are a minority they will want to prove they are one of "the good ones". Sick burn on Latinos out of nowhere quote:Filibuster is gone dude, stop pretending it will be a factor, McConnell is a loving liar. Even without the filibuster all it takes is a handful of Republican defectors to block the GOP majority. quote:Already done, in the case of national emergency the Executive is effectively all powerful. This is not true.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:34
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If Barack Obama took Trump golfing in early 2009, Trump would have just won the presidency as a Democrat.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:35
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deathbysnusnu posted:Creating insular realities with their own fiction about the other side is the new game. Does this include "We're literally witnessing the dawn of the 4th Reich because my political opponents won an election and all of them are Nazis" on internet forums?
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Nov 17, 2016 23:35
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Fojar38 posted:Sick burn on Latinos out of nowhere Lotta Hispanics really do want to be the next ones in line to get invited into the club of whiteness. They're massive pricks. My uncle is one of them. greatn posted:If Barack Obama took Trump golfing in early 2009, Trump would have just won the presidency as a Democrat. I kind of don't feel like this would've gone well. He's still an unqualified idiot in it for the money and fame regardless of party afilliation. He might've been less openly racist, but...
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Nov 17, 2016 23:36
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Fojar38 posted:Does this include "We're literally witnessing the dawn of the 4th Reich because my political opponents won an election and all of them are Nazis" on internet forums? Trump is fundamentally different than W.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:38
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NewForumSoftware posted:That's how the government works. You sign the bills that get passed or you filibuster/refuse until it gets shut down. Is this really the state of civics education in our country? Doctor Butts posted:I know there's really nothing else to talk about right now with respect to the subject, but kind of like how a lot of people thought Obama would usher in the most progressive presidency ever: is a bit too early to say the Democrats have capitulated entirely. The reason it's SOP is because that's the way it's always been done, and no one wanted to be the first to break that tradition because doing so would set a precedent and legitimize using the same tactic against them in the future. If the Dems aren't willing to punish them for obstructionism - particularly when it cost the Dems a Supreme Court pick!!! - then nothing matters and the Republicans are just going to go hog wild forever. No, I don't think it was an especially good idea to essentially enshrine MAD into the basic workings of our legislature, but it's a bit late to complain about that now. Fojar38 posted:Which judges that are currently on the Supreme Court do you think would sign off on concentration camps? What constitutional interpretation allows for Mexico-Muslim Concentration Camps? Uhhhh, Korematsu?
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Nov 17, 2016 23:40
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, Hillary seems like the illustrative example that candidates do matter. Cory Booker would've dumpstered Trump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co7GpMks8UA
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Nov 17, 2016 23:41
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https://twitter.com/cnbcnow/status/799366545038311424 ~Gingrich-san~
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Nov 17, 2016 23:42
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Trabisnikof posted:Trump is fundamentally different than W. Yes, but a lot of the scenarios being speculated about in this thread assumes that every Republican is a Trumpet and will sign off on everything that he wants because they actually all hate democracy, freedom, and apple pie and have been waiting for the opportune moment to eradicate the republic and that moment is now. This is basically Conservatives in 2008 but replace Trump and Republicans with Obama and Democrats. It didn't take too long for reality to disprove it but reality was never what they were actually afraid of.
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Nov 17, 2016 23:42
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