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Business Gorillas posted:i know you're new to this whole "shitposting" thing but you're typically not supposed to say things that are true when you're trying to be ironic I've been shitposting long before you joined this forum. But we will see if Economic Populism is the One True Issue from now til 2020. But let's put all our eggs in that basket just to be sure.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:46
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Business Gorillas posted:reminder even the clintonistas said that clinton was a terrible campaigner and thought that this wouldn't affect her against a literal showman that managed to outswindle the entirey of the thieves' guild and den of ill repute known as the republican primary To be fair, people expected her to lack charisma, they didn't expect her to have massively incompetent resource allocation. It's not like she couldn't have won handily despite the charisma gap, had she just put her efforts in the right places (ie, not Georgia).* If it hadn't been such an incredibly high stakes election I could even almost forgive her for making the risky play of trying to expand the map for future elections by pouring lots of resources into Georgia/Arizona/Texas, especially with the polling leads she had. But it was, so she really had no excuse for not playing it as safely as possible. *Or picked a positive message and hammered on it, instead of spending so much time talking about how bad Trump is. Or [massive list of things that would have swung the ~100k votes needed to win the election]. Peven Stan posted:If you have to go to work on a tuesday and your boss is going to jack you for taking time off to vote why would you wait 2 hours in line for some vague promises and inscrutable technocratic reforms? If you knew in advance Trump would win if you didn't, you probably would. But nobody can know that, and there aren't do-overs, so yeah Dems gotta send a strong and clear(!) message of "here's how we are going to make your life better".
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Nov 19, 2016 07:46
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Peven Stan posted:Democrats didn't turn out because they disliked clinton and the democratic party stands for literally nothing. If you have to go to work on a tuesday and your boss is going to jack you for taking time off to vote why would you wait 2 hours in line for some vague promises and inscrutable technocratic reforms? Politics nerds might've read harold bloom's 20 point plan to fix the ACA but literally nobody else gives a poo poo. Yet everyone everywhere is still talking about Hillary Clinton rather than thinking about the future. Honestly, who cares at all about her anymore? There is nothing we can learn from her and endlessly arguing about her campaign will bring us exactly zero insight about how to act in the future. If the Dems want to win, they will sell a candidate whose brand inspires people to act. It's as simple as that. Is hatred of Hillary really strong enough we have to keep bashing her still? She's old news.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:47
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To be fair, if any party would nominate a neophyte who could lose to Trump in 2020 in a Foriegn Policy election it would be the Democrats.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:49
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the black husserl posted:It should be obvious to everyone that the loss was a marketing failure. The Dems failed to build an appealing-enough brand and probably only scored as well as they did based on inertia. The one thing I can say is that she and her campaign stand as a great example what not to do, and I think that this can provide some insight for the future.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:I wish the "Left" was a unified disciplined force for change to the extent the Right thinks it was. It kind of is, now that those "Bernie Bros" who were "not real Democrats" and definitely "racist and sexist" are you know, actually protesting and organizing rather than just meekly going "sigh, I guess we weren't racist enough" and "time to heal". If the Democratic party doesn't start making a break with Clintonian Third-way liberalism, it'll happen again. They learned nothing from Obama, and they seem content to remain the spineless shits they've been forever.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:54
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the black husserl posted:Yet everyone everywhere is still talking about Hillary Clinton rather than thinking about the future. Honestly, who cares at all about her anymore? There is nothing we can learn from her and endlessly arguing about her campaign will bring us exactly zero insight about how to act in the future. If the Dems want to win, they will sell a candidate whose brand inspires people to act. It's as simple as that. Is hatred of Hillary really strong enough we have to keep bashing her still? She's old news. this is the contentious issue because the upper middle class white people that have seized control of the party have absolutely zero interest on a message that actually appeals to their base (see: economic populism) edit: foobardog posted:It kind of is, now that those "Bernie Bros" who were "not real Democrats" and definitely "racist and sexist" are you know, actually protesting and organizing rather than just meekly going "sigh, I guess we weren't racist enough" and "time to heal".
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Nov 19, 2016 07:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:CLINTON GOT A SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK AND LATINO VOTES THAN OBAMA (on election day, not counting early voting)
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Nov 19, 2016 07:56
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Has this been linked in here yet? http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/donald-trump-voters-pennsylvania-blue-collar-214466 Basically: economic_anxiety.html quote:And when Trump talked about building the wall on the Mexican border, she told me, she didn’t think about stopping people from coming into this country nearly as much as she thought about stopping the drugs. The heroin that killed her son. I heard the same sentiments from others about the drug scourge here, wrought by pervasive hopelessness. quote:His disparagement of John McCain for having been “captured,” of the “face” of Carly Fiorina, of the looks of Ted Cruz’s wife, of the Muslim Gold Star mother and father; his non-stop name-calling, his pandering taco bowl tweet in which he professed his affection for Hispanics, his ludicrous implication that Cruz’s father was involved in the assassination of JFK; “torture works,” “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters,” “grab ‘em by the pussy,” “just so you understand, I don’t know anything about David Duke, OK?”—all of that, or at least a lot of it, mattered to them, they told me. Just not enough. Not enough for them to vote for her instead of for him. quote:Byich, unlike most of the people I talked to here this week, hasn’t changed his party affiliation. He’s still a Democrat. Trump, though, was an easy choice over Clinton, he told me. “He was talking to us,” he said. “I felt like she was talking down to us.” I asked Byich, who was wearing a hard hat and a Trump shirt, the same thing I had asked his boss.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:57
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Trabisnikof posted:We'll just nominate the most economic populist we can find and basically we cannot lose in 2020. If we lose it will be because our candidate wasn't enough of an economic populist. economic populism cannot fail. it can only be failed.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:00
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Ugh. Let me not forget incompetent shits. You basically looked at Romney believing he would win and took that to mean, oh, the demographics will save us, despite voter suppression, and hosed. It. Up. I get that our elections are complete and utter bullshit that hurts governance and reasonable political dialogue, but until you have the power and will to change them, you have to WIN them.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:01
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Business Gorillas posted:this is the contentious issue because the upper middle class white people that have seized control of the party have absolutely zero interest on a message that actually appeals to their base (see: economic populism) The specific message and economic populism don't really matter. Honey, you can sell anything. Yesterday these people were screaming about the national debt and small government. Today they're screaming about immigrants and going in debt to "bring jobs back". People just need an identity. Something to believe in. How you package it is up to you.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:02
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Business Gorillas posted:this is the contentious issue because the upper middle class white people that have seized control of the party have absolutely zero interest on a message that actually appeals to their base (see: economic populism) Or "please stop shooting us".
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Nov 19, 2016 08:02
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I am a huge liberal in the south and I was thinking. In theory, the Democratic Party is the party of the poor and the Republican Party is the party of the rich. The fact that the Democratic Party has made no inroads into the South is a disgrace. I know racism is a barrier but for fucks sake we are basically a third world country down here. The right message could turn some of us towards you. Please come try and get us. I think an FDR esque type talking about them voting for the rich in their state could work to turn some counties. Raccooon fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 08:04
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Business Gorillas posted:i'd say that they're right that the Bernard Brothers weren't real democrats, they're actual leftists True, and rather embracing us, they wasted their money haranguing us, chasing a political middle that doesn't really exist any more. Obama made so many better decisions as a moderate liberal to pull in leftists it's really something that should be a lesson to all future politicians.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:04
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citybeatnik posted:Or "please stop shooting us". "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BLACK PEOPLE?!?!" says the bad poster, apparently unaware to the fact that we don't live in a Civilization 5 game and there is no slider with "Economic Justice" and "Social Justice" on opposite sides
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Nov 19, 2016 08:04
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Business Gorillas posted:"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BLACK PEOPLE?!?!" says the bad poster, apparently unaware to the fact that we don't live in a Civilization 5 game and there is no slider with "Economic Justice" and "Social Justice" on opposite sides Go on... *Edit* Like legit we're talking about proper messaging and marketing here lead with how the party is going to focus on both at once as opposed to championing one over the other. Walk and chew gum at the same drat time. Because if you're campaigning you're going to have to deal with people throwing crap like that back at you. Because politics are not neat and tidy. citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 08:05
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foobardog posted:True, and rather embracing us, they wasted their money haranguing us, chasing a political middle that doesn't really exist any more. Obama made so many better decisions as a moderate liberal to pull in leftists it's really something that should be a lesson to all future politicians. i would argue that Obama was the same poo poo Hillary was peddling but in a package that could actually sell. Clinton looked at Obama and pretty much said "yeah, i can beat that" and then proceeded to tell coal country (and the entire rust belt indirectly) that they're screwed
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Nov 19, 2016 08:07
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citybeatnik posted:Go on... If your identity politics don't consider class, they're poo poo. If your class politics don't consider identity, they're poo poo. It's the height of liberalism to separate them because that may force them to realize capitalism isn't inherently the great equalizer that it's portrayed as. They may have to sound a little... Pinko. Luckily it's not the Cold anymore...
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Nov 19, 2016 08:08
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Guy Goodbody posted:CLINTON GOT A SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF THE BLACK AND LATINO VOTES THAN OBAMA You know why I hate this argument, the Obama elections were also largely about race. Even though McCain and Romney ran much less overtly racist campaigns than Trump, and even though Obama managed to get a very interesting slice of the white vote, especially in 2008, you're crazy blind if you can't see the huge racial dynamic in those elections. But you're even blinder if you can't see the racial dynamic in 2016.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:10
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The party of the poor wins the richest states and the party of the rich wins the poorest states. How the gently caress does that happen?
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Nov 19, 2016 08:11
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Business Gorillas posted:i would argue that Obama was the same poo poo Hillary was peddling but in a package that could actually sell. Clinton looked at Obama and pretty much said "yeah, i can beat that" and then proceeded to tell coal country (and the entire rust belt indirectly) that they're screwed So we should lie to folks? Because I'm fine with that. foobardog posted:If your identity politics don't consider class, they're poo poo. If your class politics don't consider identity, they're poo poo. It's the height of liberalism to separate them because that may force them to realize capitalism isn't inherently the great equalizer that it's portrayed as. They may have to sound a little... Pinko. Luckily it's not the Cold anymore... Now cut that complicated issue down in to a thirty second sound bite. I'm not disagreeing with you - I agree with marrying the ideas. But going "NO WAR BUT A CLASS WAR" makes you come across as blind or dismissive. But that's just, like, my opinion man. I'm a yellow dog and it doesn't matter who you put on the ballot on account of living in the blighted hellscape that is Texas.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:12
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Deadulus posted:The party of the poor wins the richest states and the party of the rich wins the poorest states. How the gently caress does that happen? The richest states are also more populous and have more poor people than the sparsely populated poorer states. Edit: for example, NYC has almost as many people below the poverty line as the entire population of West Virginia. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 08:12
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Business Gorillas posted:i would argue that Obama was the same poo poo Hillary was peddling but in a package that could actually sell. Clinton looked at Obama and pretty much said "yeah, i can beat that" and then proceeded to tell coal country (and the entire rust belt indirectly) that they're screwed Perhaps. I give him a bit of pass because when he finally got to be Trollobama after 2014 there were good things and so very refreshing things, even as he was droning people. Either way, despite his obvious distaste with campaigning, he had people who knew how to market it, and realized it was a marketing thing, and not just a reward for good service.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:12
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blamegame posted:You know why I hate this argument, the Obama elections were also largely about race. Even though McCain and Romney ran much less overtly racist campaigns than Trump, and even though Obama managed to get a very interesting slice of the white vote, especially in 2008, you're crazy blind if you can't see the huge racial dynamic in those elections. It's Not About Race Because It's Never About Race.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:14
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is class an identity, or a material condition?
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Nov 19, 2016 08:16
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Family Values posted:Has this been linked in here yet? http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/donald-trump-voters-pennsylvania-blue-collar-214466 No they are all racist troglodytes.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:16
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Trabisnikof posted:The richest states are also more populous and have more poor people than the sparsely populated poorer states: That's true. I am apart of the elite of Alabama and I don't understand why the vast poor people of my state vote for my Family to have more power over them. I know it is wrong, but I don't know how to un-do it.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:16
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citybeatnik posted:So we should lie to folks? The thing is, trying to get a sound bite is part of the problem. Yes, have the sound bite for moderate dingbats and business folks high on their own supply. But you need to be credible enough that politics nerds like D&Ders have something to sell and a desire to harass their friends to vote rather than a meek, welp, guess I'm voting Democrat again... 
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Nov 19, 2016 08:16
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Swan Oat posted:is class an identity, or a material condition? Identity I'd assume. Considering the number of "middle class people" that more more than twice the median income.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:18
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This election was about the economy in much the same way the civil war was about states rights.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:18
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foobardog posted:The thing is, trying to get a sound bite is part of the problem. Yes, have the sound bite for moderate dingbats and business folks high on their own supply. But you need to be credible enough that politics nerds like D&Ders have something to sell and a desire to harass their friends to vote rather than a meek, welp, guess I'm voting Democrat again... We are a tiny minority and should not be catered to. *EDIT* Stereotype posted:This election was about the economy in much the same way the civil war was about states rights. Technically correct - the best kind of correct.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:19
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foobardog posted:The thing is, trying to get a sound bite is part of the problem. Yes, have the sound bite for moderate dingbats and business folks high on their own supply. But you need to be credible enough that politics nerds like D&Ders have something to sell and a desire to harass their friends to vote rather than a meek, welp, guess I'm voting Democrat again... It seems so easy. How can you not sell that?
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Nov 19, 2016 08:20
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Deadulus posted:That's true. They do it because in the South politician preaches to the poor white man "You got more than the blacks, don't complain. You're better than them, you been born with white skin, " they explain. And the Negro's name is used, it is plain, for the politician's gain as he rises to fame. And the poor white remains on the caboose of the train, but it ain't him to blame. He's only a pawn in their game. The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid and the marshals and cops get the same. But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool. He's taught in his school, from the start by the rule, that the laws are with him, to protect his white skin. To keep up his hate, so he never thinks straight 'Bout the shape that he's in. But it ain't him to blame. He's only a pawn in their game.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:24
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the black husserl posted:Voting for a Democrat should mean voting for a person who will get you fair pay, defend your rights as worker, argue your case in front of powerful interests and protect your inalienable rights and civil liberties. It should mean voting for someone who will protect the natural resources of your home state and respect the wisdom of scientific experts. It should mean standing up for opportunity and character over prejudice and discrimination. It should mean not having to vote for the loving loudmouth reality star who clearly doesn't give a poo poo about you. This is what I am wondering in my home state of Alabama. I am from a very wealthy family here. I have sat at dinners with the politicians here talking about screwing people over here so they can lower our taxes. Why doesn't describing this to people get them to change their vote?
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Nov 19, 2016 08:24
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Swan Oat posted:is class an identity, or a material condition? Yes. Let me explain. While the American class system is more based on material condition than the UK's, where it's tied to a history of nobility, it still has cultural boundaries that are enforced in ways to increase benefits for the Upper Class. That is, since "we're your betters" doesn't fly as well in the US, the capitalist class hides themselves by pretending they are actually just poor middle class people like you. Then once everyone's middle class you get the poor and nouveaux middle to turn against other middle class/professional class people as "elites", and poor people as "parasites". Then they offer the benefits of middle class to you for upholding this... at interest.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:25
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the black husserl posted:Voting for a Democrat should mean voting for a person who will get you fair pay, defend your rights as worker, argue your case in front of powerful interests and protect your inalienable rights and civil liberties. It should mean voting for someone who will protect the natural resources of your home state and respect the wisdom of scientific experts. It should mean standing up for opportunity and character over prejudice and discrimination. It should mean not having to vote for the loving loudmouth reality star who clearly doesn't give a poo poo about you. Now say that all in six words or less.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:26
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the black husserl posted:Voting for a Democrat should mean voting for a person who will get you fair pay, defend your rights as worker, argue your case in front of powerful interests and protect your inalienable rights and civil liberties. It should mean voting for someone who will protect the natural resources of your home state and respect the wisdom of scientific experts. It should mean standing up for opportunity and character over prejudice and discrimination. It should mean not having to vote for the loving loudmouth reality star who clearly doesn't give a poo poo about you. Trabisnikof posted:Now say that all in six words or less. "Every man a king." "Justice for all." "I stand with and for you." foobardog posted:Yes. It's the Big Whites, Small Whites, Colored, and Slave set up, not disagreeing with you on that yeah.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:27
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Trabisnikof posted:Now say that all in six words or less. more jobs, less bullshit, no compromise
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Nov 19, 2016 08:28
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Trabisnikof posted:They do it because in the South politician preaches to the poor white man "You got more than the blacks, don't complain. You're better than them, you been born with white skin, " they explain. And the Negro's name is used, it is plain, for the politician's gain as he rises to fame. And the poor white remains on the caboose of the train, but it ain't him to blame. He's only a pawn in their game. I understand this angle. I am saying a politician coming to tell them the man in Montgomery and Birmingham is laughing at their blind allegiance could flip some people. One because it's true and two because no one likes to be the fool.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:28
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