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nickmeister posted:Man, I know disliking or even hating foreigners is a pretty much universal concept, but I feel like East Asia takes it to another level. They like the idea of their children learning to speak English at a functional level, but they HATE the idea of having to actually interact with real life foreigners! The whole point of bringing white people over to dance and sing with your kids is so they can actually get experience interacting with a foreigner and not devolve into babbling fits as if being confronted with a Martian! I think people can generally recognize a functional need to interact with, even while holding petty disdain for, the outside world. I grew up and live in a place where you're kind of handicapped if you can't at least say a few things, or at least understand a few things in both spanish and english, but parents scream and holler about pressing 1 for english and having to sit through double-length bilingual company meetings, they still put their kids through at least two years of foreign language, and in most poorer schools here, that just means spanish, and most would flip their poo poo if that was taken away
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Nov 20, 2016 02:53
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basic hitler posted:I think people can generally recognize a functional need to interact with, even while holding petty disdain for, the outside world. Sure, that's true. I just feel like it's taken to another level in Asia. When I was in the service industry, I didn't have a nervous breakdown when I ran into someone who couldn't speak English very well. I just slowed down and spoke more simply. Also, I can't imagine anyone in a western country thinking it's a good idea to replace a language teacher with a silly ball-droid.
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Nov 20, 2016 03:09
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regarding Filipinos are they Asian or pacific islanders I saw some flare up on my fb about it, and I don't know what the right answer was and I am too scared to ask.
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Nov 20, 2016 03:29
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they are genetically half polynesian and half east asian with about 10% southern european. Same as indonesian, thais and malaysian with added pinch of white man Fauxtool fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 03:56
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Wow, from the Spanish? I had no idea they'd had that much of an impact on the genetics there.nickmeister posted:but they HATE the idea of having to actually interact with real life foreigners! they don't, actually, just by the way. I guess it's not as easy as in France or Portugal or whatever but if the impression you're getting from these threads is that when you step foot in Asia people'll be running away from you in droves then know it's not the reality.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:01
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most are both, the perceived hierarchy goes something like: * celebrities, half-white * rich people, chinese origin, never seen in sunlight * the rest, malay/islander/latino, lighter skin=better * oppressed negrito aboriginal tribes
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Nov 20, 2016 04:02
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Koramei posted:Wow, from the Spanish? I had no idea they'd had that much of an impact on the genetics there. Yeah the Spanish loved to gently caress.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:08
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pretty much all the SEA native populations have a large percentage of polynesian genes.LingcodKilla posted:Yeah the Spanish loved to gently caress. Portugal too, all of spain and portugal's former colonies have tons of mixed race people.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:08
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Korea's been talking about those stupid English robots for years, they never go anywhere beyond showing up in internet news articles.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:26
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Is the internet a big motivator for English learning? If you can read, there's Reddit, Facebook, etc. If you can listen, there's podcasts, tv, movies and documentaries. Frankly, if I were a Korean kid, my only personal motivation would be access to English-language content.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:35
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Accretionist posted:Is the internet a big motivator for English learning? If you can read, there's Reddit, Facebook, etc. If you can listen, there's podcasts, tv, movies and documentaries. RACISM AND ANIME FUCKKKKKKKKKK
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Nov 20, 2016 04:40
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Accretionist posted:Is the internet a big motivator for English learning? If you can read, there's Reddit, Facebook, etc. If you can listen, there's podcasts, tv, movies and documentaries. For most Koreans there's no motivation, it's just required. Part of why they can have English class daily for 10 years and come out of it speaking zero English.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:52
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Accretionist posted:Is the internet a big motivator for English learning? If you can read, there's Reddit, Facebook, etc. If you can listen, there's podcasts, tv, movies and documentaries. there's Korean language versions of all that stuff. Insular and smaller Korean language versions of all that stuff, which is a pretty big problem actually*, but I guess it takes some of the impetus away especially since everyone else you know uses it too. The motivation most Koreans have to learn English is "because I have to" Even my Korean friends with fluent English just stick to Korean websites really. The only non-Korean site I can think of that everyone consistently uses is Instagram. oh well yeah and Facebook. *e: I wonder how true this is for other languages with a big internet presence actually, I think I've heard it about French too. Basically the argument is that one of the reasons Korea has utterly abysmal productivity is that, where English speakers can just google whatever the hell instructions for doing something and there'll be several pages of often pretty decent answers, the equivalent for Korea is a couple of lovely Naver posts that could as well be flat out wrong, if they exist at all. Koramei fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 04:54
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Wait... He spent 15k and was surprised the house was poo poo? Also it looks more like a condo or apartment with all those people around....
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Nov 20, 2016 05:01
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Wendigee posted:RACISM AND ANIME FUCKKKKKKKKKK Eh, it's from D&D. I disagreed that the Democrats must purge their white-male leadership and must purge anyone with an economics focus. Edit: It's... → It's from... Accretionist fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 05:02
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For real how much of English teaching in Asia is an expensive elaborate charade that produces people that can't carry on a conversation, and how much of it is the real deal of people wanting to learn and getting results?
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Nov 20, 2016 05:04
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This isn't dnd.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:04
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Koramei posted:*e: I wonder how true this is for other languages with a big internet presence actually, I think I've heard it about French too. Basically the argument is that one of the reasons Korea has utterly abysmal productivity is that, where English speakers can just google whatever the hell instructions for doing something and there'll be several pages of often pretty decent answers, the equivalent for Korea is a couple of lovely Naver posts that could as well be flat out wrong, if they exist at all. I've read many times this is part of why Asian programming/IT is so bad, all the good programming resources are in English and they can't understand them. I would blow Dane Cook posted:For real how much of English teaching in Asia is an expensive elaborate charade that produces people that can't carry on a conversation, and how much of it is the real deal of people wanting to learn and getting results? Most of the time it's a charade. They just want the appearance of learning. This is why they're so obsessed with having white teachers, it's more prestigious to learn from a honkey even if the black or Asian American guy is ten times better as a teacher. One of the many reasons I got out of English teaching.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:08
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Koramei posted:they don't, actually, just by the way. I guess it's not as easy as in France or Portugal or whatever but if the impression you're getting from these threads is that when you step foot in Asia people'll be running away from you in droves then know it's not the reality. Maybe "hate" is the wrong word. But in my short time in Taiwan, nearly every interaction is extra awkward. Not just "I don't speak your language very well" awkward. Ignoring the fact that I'm speaking Chinese and not listening to what I'm saying because they're too busy thinking of what to say in English awkward. I feel like the kind of house guest that the hosts desperately want to impress, but don't really WANT to the guest to be there. Accretionist posted:Is the internet a big motivator for English learning? If you can read, there's Reddit, Facebook, etc. If you can listen, there's podcasts, tv, movies and documentaries. Why would they? Their own country has the best of everything and there's no reason to look anywhere else! Seriously, though, I feel like a lot of Asians are missing out by not taking advantage of all the English language content available on the internet. The quality and quantity of Chinese stuff really pales in comparison. I would blow Dane Cook posted:For real how much of English teaching in Asia is an expensive elaborate charade that produces people that can't carry on a conversation, and how much of it is the real deal of people wanting to learn and getting results? I think for a lot of people living in fairly comfortable countries, learning a foreign language is more about the IDEA of being bilingual rather than the actual goal. You can brag to your friends you're learning a second language, show off pictures of your handsome, white "teacher," say a few words at the foreigner they saw on the subway once. The "result" is them feeling good about taking language lessons, not actually being able to speak the language.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:13
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nickmeister posted:Maybe "hate" is the wrong word. But in my short time in Taiwan, nearly every interaction is extra awkward. Not just "I don't speak your language very well" awkward. Ignoring the fact that I'm speaking Chinese and not listening to what I'm saying because they're too busy thinking of what to say in English awkward. I feel like the kind of house guest that the hosts desperately want to impress, but don't really WANT to the guest to be there. that's surprising, in my experience Taiwan was one of the most welcoming places in Asia I've been. people were very supportive of me trying to learn Chinese too, they'd usually humor me with conversation maybe I got lucky though
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Nov 20, 2016 05:20
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nickmeister posted:I think for a lot of people living in fairly comfortable countries, learning a foreign language is more about the IDEA of being bilingual rather than the actual goal. You can brag to your friends you're learning a second language, show off pictures of your handsome, white "teacher," say a few words at the foreigner they saw on the subway once. The "result" is them feeling good about taking language lessons, not actually being able to speak the language. This is why the majority of white people in monolingual regions (badly) learn a second language.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:21
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Taiwan was really cool I expected more of the same when I went to China
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Nov 20, 2016 05:26
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Wendigee posted:Wait... He spent 15k and was surprised the house was poo poo? Also it looks more like a condo or apartment with all those people around.... my aunt bought a kickass condo for 150k US in China. 24/7 useless security spitting seeds everywhere and sleeping all the time. The home itself is nice, 70% of western standards instead of not at all like her friends that paid a lot less Do you think its best to buy the first or last homes of a tract housing development in china? Maybe they will try hard at the beginning because the boss is still watching, or maybe they will be actually good at making the houses at the end from all the practice. Or maybe they just wont give a poo poo the whole way through nickmeister posted:Seriously, though, I feel like a lot of Asians are missing out by not taking advantage of all the English language content available on the internet. The quality and quantity of Chinese stuff really pales in comparison. yeah Chinese dota memes are garbage and like 6 months behind ours
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Nov 20, 2016 05:42
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Cumslut1895 posted:Foreigners out! #BuildTheWall Speaking of walls, did the Great Wall actually work?
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Nov 20, 2016 05:46
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Outrail posted:This is why the majority of white people in monolingual regions (badly) learn a second language. I read somewhere once that the greatest factor of success in being multilingual is to come from a polygot region, followed by being raised by parents who speak a different at home. It seems a bit odd to say, "They don't speak multiple languages because nobody else does" but the findings held up.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:48
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oohhboy posted:Speaking of walls, did the Great Wall actually work? No.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:50
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oohhboy posted:Speaking of walls, did the Great Wall actually work? more or less, it wasn't built up much when genghis khan invaded, the modern wall people think of was built by the ming. from what I understand it kept out most of the horse nomads until the manchu came, and the manchus were actually willingly let in after which time they promptly captured beijing. so, it actually worked well for keeping horse nomads out which were the main threat to china for most of its history. the manchu were willingly let in
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Nov 20, 2016 05:51
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Invisible Handjob posted:that's surprising, in my experience Taiwan was one of the most welcoming places in Asia I've been. people were very supportive of me trying to learn Chinese too, they'd usually humor me with conversation Don't get me wrong. Aside from my neighbors who seem to think I have the plague or something, I haven't really run into anyone who's MEAN per say. Just very awkward.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:51
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oohhboy posted:Speaking of walls, did the Great Wall actually work? Nope. Raiders brought ramps and new the areas where it was easiest to cross, when they didn't just bring hammers to clear a path.
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Nov 20, 2016 05:52
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Grand Fromage posted:For most Koreans there's no motivation, it's just required. Part of why they can have English class daily for 10 years and come out of it speaking zero English. its the same thing with spanish in the US. its practically required for everyone to take except there is no impetus for anyone to use it anywhere
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Nov 20, 2016 05:58
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How comfortable/isolated your country is certainly seems to have an effect. My experience in China is people very rarely speak English, but if they do they're good at it. In Korea a lot of people speak a tiny amount but it's rare to meet anyone who actually knows the language well enough to communicate. Japan is the most comfortably prosperous country in Asia and also has by far the lowest level of English I've encountered. But then you go somewhere like Cambodia and the English level is quite high. There you're motivated, speaking English can open a lot of opportunities. This is not counting Hong Kong/Malaysia/Singapore since their English is British legacy stuff and doesn't fit.
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Nov 20, 2016 06:10
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:For real how much of English teaching in Asia is an expensive elaborate charade that produces people that can't carry on a conversation, and how much of it is the real deal of people wanting to learn and getting results? In general the way it works in East Asia is the kids take English every year they're in school from like grade six to grade 12 and graduate not being able to hold any kind of a conversation or do anything beyond yell HARRO at foreigners. Classes vary in how much they're a charade like any classes do -- the ones that are kids the kids don't have any real motivations to learn and just kind of gently caress around. The adult classes can be very motivated, particularly when people are paying for the lessons out of their own pocket, and they're trying to make up for an education system that has not given them the ability to have functional English, usually for a job that offers significant opportunities to someone who can manage to talk to foreigners. They (somewhat rightly) seek out native speakers for this because while local English teachers may know the grammar many of them can't actually communicate in English at all, have never lived abroad, etc. Additionally even if they can communicate a large percentage of them will default to the same flawed methods of instruction that didn't work in the first place (let's have an English class where no one speaks English). I remember walking past an English class taught by an old Thai lady one time and there was what looked like algebra up on the board and she was leaning into a microphone jabbering on monotonously in Thai while the kids in the classroom were running riot. I stood there staring at the board trying to figure out what the plusses and boxes and integral-like symbols were supposed to be before I gave up and kept on along with where I was going. I won't deny there are some atrocious and borderline illiterate foreign teachers overseas, and some really aberrant behavior. In the places I worked where there were other teachers to talk to however I would say that probably 7/10 of the teachers really tried to make good classes for their students and had a genuine concern when classes didn't go well or when the students hadn't learned something. I did have better than average jobs because I had a degree and a CELTA and I interview fairly well so I probably have a rosier view than may be warranted. I did pick up some night classes for a while in Thailand on some misguided notion that I wasn't really working hard enough and compared to my main school my little moonlighter place had much worse teachers there -- one skinny 20 year old kid who didn't seem to know that an 's wasn't always a possesive, a typical balding British pensioner who did an English boarding school style twerplecutre generally in front of his classes, etc. raton fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 06:34
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I think a lot of people who haven't lived in Asia read the burnout expat stories that get posted because they're hilarious, but then assume those are typical. They're really not. I've been in Asia six years now and can only think of two real shitbird idiots I've met. Even with stories from others included the number's pretty small compared to the number legitimately doing their best. Lot of people with education degrees too.
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Nov 20, 2016 06:37
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A lot of Chinese who do pay attention to English are usually good at it enough to have deeper conversations, like this bird today: Really glad I told her I am too busy to hang out!
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Nov 20, 2016 06:41
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haha what the gently caress
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Nov 20, 2016 06:43
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the more I try to read that the more horrified I get thinking of the implications so I'm gonna go ahead and take your advice not to think too much about it
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Nov 20, 2016 06:44
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Having worked in the English teaching industry for awhile and being behind the scenes I can say that it is 100% a charade with a few accidental successes. Like I worked at a kindergarten for a few years and we had kids there for 8 hours a day every day and even if the teachers had no idea what they were doing, just being in that environment means the kids are hearing English used for the majority of their waking day and will come out of it speaking English. But the more common thing is that schools get a foreign teacher and they see each group of students for 50 minutes a week. You're not learning English from that, especially when the teacher has literally no training in teaching and is just stuck in a classroom without any experience and often times without even a textbook. The biggest joke has to be Thailand though. The big thing there is "English Programs" where the students are taking all of their subjects in English. On paper this isn't a terrible idea since it's an attempt at actual immersion in the language, but as was mentioned the compensation is miserable so you get completely unqualified people trying to teach math and science. I've seen literal high school dropouts teaching advanced physics with really no understanding of the material themselves. You combine this with generally underfunded programs and a lack of materials and it means you have a guy who really likes Steam sales trying to teach computer classes using handmade flashcards and a promise that they'll get some actual machines in a year or two. As far as Filipino teachers go, Thai schools are mostly OK with it, but begrudgingly so. Our contracts would usually stipulate a ratio of native speakers to Filipinos, who had higher requirements and less pay. We'd get around that by giving the school the official Filipino teachers then fill the rest of the positions with "temporary" Filipinos while we were "interviewing" native speakers to start at a later date. Of course we then never removed the temporary teachers and the school just pretended like they wanted them the whole time. But I get a good laugh out of the people in this thread who are talking about qualified Filipinos being passed over because of racism because while that's true the "qualified" part is also a big loving joke. Even though they had teaching degrees and degrees in the subjects they were teaching, they were all still miserable teachers who just stood at the front of the room and lectured without any thought to actual activities or engagement. At least all the edutourists who think they're making a difference in the world by dancing in front of classroom for 25 hours a week were after that "Oh Captain, My Captain" moment and would even sometimes incorporate feedback into their lessons. With the Filipinos it was just a lot of, "Sir, yes, sir," and then going right back to standing in front of the classroom and drilling vocabulary. The other thing with Filipino English is that it's not the same as American English or British English. We get into some grey area with what constitutes a native speaker, but a Filipino accent is markedly different and some of their word choice and syntax is different. Plus a lot of them aren't actually native English speakers and their grammar and spelling is terrible. I spent hours and hours correcting tests written by my Filipino teachers and editing their comments on student reports. Our lovely edutourist teachers weren't necessarily better in that regard either, but at least they could get the pronouns correct.
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Nov 20, 2016 06:59
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Haier posted:A lot of Chinese who do pay attention to English are usually good at it enough to have deeper conversations, like this bird today: The worst stories are the best stories. Next time have more time to hang out!
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Nov 20, 2016 07:09
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From my understanding majoring in English here basically means you couldn't get into any other courses so you get dumped into English, these are the people who then become English teachers.
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Nov 20, 2016 07:29
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Just like in the West, then?
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