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Ytlaya posted:This is from some pages back, but I wanted to mention that this generally only works if it's coming from someone whose opinion you care about (or in your case an online community you're a member of). The vast majority of people are not going to be persuaded by the condemnation of random liberals they don't know (any more than I care about the insults of random internet conservatives); if anything it might further entrench their views. This is a political movement that has become notorious for its members disowning gay children. They've managed to create an insane ouroboros of hate. Any disagreement at all is anathema; all outside ideas must be cast out to keep the movement pure. Anybody that disagree is a liberal and a communist that must be destroyed. It's McCarthyism all over again but with hidden Muslims (YOU CAN'T TRUST THEM BECAUSE TAQIYYA! ANYBODY COULD BE A HIDDEN MUSLIM!) thrown into the mix.
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Nov 20, 2016 21:59
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/mrjaycoles/status/800364234198630400 There are about ten million more eligible voters today compared to 2012. Not to mention that third party candidates received way more votes than previous elections. And the fact that 2012 was seen as a poor year for turnout for Democrats. There is also the fact that she ran against DONALD TRUMP. She should have beaten him by at least around 3%. Not to mention that the Democrats lost the senate, were decimated in the House, and barely have any states in their control. The entire party is in crisis. As far as I'm concerned, Hillary could tie or even surpass Obama's 2012 performance and that wouldn't change a shred of how poorly the state of the party is in. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 23:08
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Starshark posted:Another post-mortem that an academic lefty friend of mine liked. Haven't read the whole thing yet, but thought you might be interested. Justice quoting this so I can find it to read it later. I am just so loving exhausted right now. I have called every representative I could look up. I am so angry, so frustrated. I'm so powerless and meaningless and I'm right there with "OMG we're hosed!" Guy. Our unions have been destroyed. Our industry has been automated and shipped away. We are losing more jobs than we create and with it the tax base we need to support the system and maintain the budget. We are not going to do poo poo about the environment or global warming and the rich own our politicians. How hosed up is it that the people who grow and raise our food and support our society are paid a pittance while some jackass moving numbers around on a spreadsheet is paid six figures. Jesus. And we don't matter. We just don't matter whatsoever. It's only going to keep going down hill and gently caress. Just... gently caress.
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Nov 20, 2016 23:26
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punk rebel ecks posted:There are about ten million more eligible voters today compared to 2012. Not to mention that third party candidates received way more votes than previous elections. And the fact that 2012 was seen as a poor year for turnout for Democrats. ...the Democrats made gains in both the Senate and house, what are you on about?
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Nov 21, 2016 06:49
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theflyingorc posted:...the Democrats made gains in both the Senate and house, what are you on about? As expected in an election year. They are still far behind in the House, and the Senate was frequently described all in their favor. They lost both of them and the strategy to retake them has failed miserably. Gaining 2% of the House and only about 2 seats in the Senate during an election year and when things were in the party's favor is pathetic. The party is incompetent as gently caress. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 16:17
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This year's gonna be messed up around holiday reunions for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that a lot of peoples' ideological boundaries have been revealed in a higher-than-palatable definition. We probably all have at least one relative who voted for Trump. Even if they say it's because they wanted to stop Hillary from socializing medicine or something, which is still a lovely thing to try and stop, there's no hiding the fact that they cast that vote even in the context of a campaign built on racism, authoritarianism, and McCarthyism. They voted for the man who wants us to "check out sex tape" of his minor political enemy, and who misses the days when we were "very rough" with the protesters. Even if that person isn't a confederate flag-waving KKK member, we still now must face the fact that they are comfortable with being led by a petty authoritarian who believes that climate change is a hoax, that muslims will destroy America, that dissent is an attack on America, and that "certain other people" shouldn't be allowed to vote. A man who is stacking his cabinet with rogues gallery of individuals so vile and antithetical to their positions of power that it appears to be practically an act of spite. A man who, it is becoming increasingly apparent, is a serial sexual assault and harassment perpetrator, and an incorrigible fraudster. A man who is on record saying that it's "very dangerous" for a married woman to have a career, because she becomes "an executive, not a wife". We know somebody who, living in a society that is saturated with that information, cast their vote because, in the absolute best-case scenario, none of that stuff was bad enough, in their opinion, to make them NOT vote for Trump. They will tell you they wanted to "defend capitalism" or "make them change the system" or something, but you will still know that underneath that, is the fact that this person did not consider Trump or his policies bad enough for America, and for Americans, to withhold voting for him. People we know, and thought we could basically trust, have revealed many lines that they are willing see America cross, and many forms of social progress that we have achieved that they are willing to sacrifice for... what, tax breaks? Factory jobs? As an aside, like, who the gently caress actually wants to work in a factory? I guess I don't know how it is in other parts of the country, but the factories around here pay minimum wage and mostly just hire ex-convicts whose options for work are too limited to tell that place to gently caress off when they see the total on their first paycheck. Everybody I know who worked in manufacturing developed bone and joint disorders from being stationary on their feet doing repetitive motions 50 hours a week, and also can't afford medical treatment and were always like one emergency away from becoming homeless.
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Nov 21, 2016 16:59
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deadly_pudding posted:This year's gonna be messed up around holiday reunions for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that a lot of peoples' ideological boundaries have been revealed in a higher-than-palatable definition. My sister in law thinks Hillary wanted to make third trimaster abortions subsidized and legal based on a facebook article she read, Thanksgiving is going to be fun
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Nov 21, 2016 17:04
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punk rebel ecks posted:There are about ten million more eligible voters today compared to 2012. Not to mention that third party candidates received way more votes than previous elections. And the fact that 2012 was seen as a poor year for turnout for Democrats. I went out for Hillary this year, and literally nobody in my local DNC office here in SE Wisconsin was happy to have Hillary as the nominee All of the young people who should have been the engine of getting out the vote through sheer enthusiasm were filled with apathy, and "well they both suck but Trump sucks worse I guess" We needed someone people wanted to vote for as opposed to someone to vote against
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Nov 21, 2016 17:07
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deadly_pudding posted:This year's gonna be messed up around holiday reunions for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that a lot of peoples' ideological boundaries have been revealed in a higher-than-palatable definition. I think you're describing hard core Republicans (IE that one relative/drunk uncle/etc). I think that's missing the point as there are a lot of places within Michigan, Wisoncsin, Iowa, Pennsylvania, and Ohio that did vote for Obama once or twice in 08 and 12 and instead went for Trump, or went for Hillary with much smaller margins. Trying to deal with the people who think Muslims are destroying American is pointless as they didn't vote for Obama in 08 or 12. But there are lots of people who did vote for him once or twice that didn't vote for Clinton, and those are the people you should be having a dialogue with, not your drunk, Confederate-flag hat wearing uncle. quote:As an aside, like, who the gently caress actually wants to work in a factory? I guess I don't know how it is in other parts of the country, but the factories around here pay minimum wage and mostly just hire ex-convicts whose options for work are too limited to tell that place to gently caress off when they see the total on their first paycheck. Everybody I know who worked in manufacturing developed bone and joint disorders from being stationary on their feet doing repetitive motions 50 hours a week, and also can't afford medical treatment and were always like one emergency away from becoming homeless. Making $20-30 an hour and usually getting skills under your belt is a pretty good gig if you can get it. I'm not saying all factories are the same, and yeah wages aren't what they were (adjusted for inflation) 10-20 years ago. But they're usually a lot better than retail or food service.
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Nov 21, 2016 17:27
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deadly_pudding posted:Even if that person isn't a confederate flag-waving KKK member, we still now must face the fact that they are comfortable with being led by a petty authoritarian who believes that climate change is a hoax, that muslims will destroy America, that dissent is an attack on America, and that "certain other people" shouldn't be allowed to vote. This is essentially the position of both major parties, how liberals can type these things with a straight face is beyond me
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Nov 21, 2016 17:32
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I like this analysis here: http://www.ginandtacos.com/2016/11/20/the-next-best-thing/ There is no real answer to the problem of the rust belt, other than pointing fingers. What happened was the Democrats stopped pointing fingers at Capital, so a fascist stepped in to point fingers at brown people and liberals. Fascism succeeds when socialism fails.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:20
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I like this analysis here: quote:Of course the counterargument is that trade agreements made in the 1990s with the blessing of Bill Clinton are a major cause of manufacturing job losses. This is true, although it conveniently ignores that Clinton was almost the only Democrat willing to back an idea the Republican Party brought to the table. Why are the Republicans not the ones culpable for NAFTA, if this narrative makes any sense? How does this make sense? Bill Clinton shouldn't be held responsible for NAFTA because he had to go across the aisle to achieve it?
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Nov 21, 2016 18:23
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NAFTA was a Republican idea originally. Electing a Republican because you're mad Clinton adopted a Republican proposal isn't exactly coherent.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:NAFTA was a Republican idea originally. Electing a Republican because you're mad Clinton adopted a Republican proposal isn't exactly coherent. And? I didn't elect a Republican, Trump voters did. quote:If scapegoating is the only thing that wins these people over, then the best strategy is to point them in the right direction again and remind them that Capital is the enemy of Labor. This is just such a pathetic analysis it's hard to take seriously. The Democrats literally can't do this.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:30
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NewForumSoftware posted:And? I didn't elect a Republican, Trump voters did. In that paragraph he isn't talking about you, he's talking about Trump voters. And why can't they? Bernie did.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:In that paragraph he isn't talking about you, he's talking about Trump voters. Yeah so you have two groups of people, people who wanted NAFTA(republicans) and people who don't want NAFTA(anti-establishmentarians) and Trump signaled that both would be taken care of. It doesn't matter what the reality is, it's what happened during the election. Blaming the GOP for NAFTA is irrelevant. quote:And why can't they? Bernie did. And what happened to him? The Democratic party is set up to ensure the party owners (donors) maintain control. You really think Bernie could even happen? Dude would either get co-opted or assassinated long before he got into office.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:NAFTA was a Republican idea originally. Electing a Republican because you're mad Clinton adopted a Republican proposal isn't exactly coherent. Trump has less in common with the Republicans who supported NAFTA than they do with any sitting Democrat, Sanders et al inclusive. There's a reason all the Bush guys were loudly defecting to Clinton during the election.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:37
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NewForumSoftware posted:
This is a really stupid argument in a world where Trump won. Bernie is currently the politician with the highest personal approval ratings in the entire country, and the Clinton wing that blocked him is utterly destroyed.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is a really stupid argument in a world where Trump won. The "Clinton wing" you're talking about is the Democratic party and leadership fyi.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:43
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NewForumSoftware posted:The "Clinton wing" you're talking about is the Democratic party and leadership fyi. There's no such thing. "The leadership" doesn't exist as an abstract entity, no more than "Republican party machinery" who were supposed to stop Trump. If we're talking elected office holders and party chairpeople, Bernie is getting his pick installed as the new DNC chair.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's no such thing. "The leadership" doesn't exist as an abstract entity, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council
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Nov 21, 2016 18:48
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Note the part where it dissolved in 2011
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Nov 21, 2016 18:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Note the part where it dissolved in 2011 Yeah? Where did the records and data go? Any organization that could be filling it's role?
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Nov 21, 2016 18:52
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The Third Way faction is at the weakest it's been in their entire history. The current favorite for DNC chair, Congressman Keith Ellison, sent out an article from Jacobin, a literal socialist magazine, to every member of congress. https://twitter.com/shawngude/status/735524642870304768
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Nov 21, 2016 18:53
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Zikan posted:The Third Way faction is at the weakest it's been in their entire history. Because they just lost an election. They looked pretty weak in 2000 as well except they didn't get beat by a Reality TV star. The best we can hope for is Obama 2.0 in 2020, which would be an unmitigated disaster as the climate spirals out of control but meh that seems to be something the Democrats are ok with.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:55
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Zikan posted:The current favorite for DNC chair, Congressman Keith Ellison, sent out an article from Jacobin, a literal socialist magazine, to every member of congress. Keith Ellison also reads Jacobin! This guy is awesome!
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Nov 21, 2016 20:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:NAFTA was a Republican idea originally. Electing a Republican because you're mad Clinton adopted a Republican proposal isn't exactly coherent. When the democrat is his wife and the GOP guy is promising to dismantle it, it is understandable.
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Nov 21, 2016 20:32
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I have zero faith whatsoever that the Democrats are interested in reforming away from neoliberalism and Third Way because I have seen zero proof of it. If the Democratic party isn't socialist, it is dead, and I don't see anything that suggests they genuinely want to become the former. I do not trust the Democrats to not be out of touch and uncaring.
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Nov 21, 2016 20:34
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Pollyanna posted:I have zero faith whatsoever that the Democrats are interested in reforming away from neoliberalism and Third Way because I have seen zero proof of it. If the Democratic party isn't socialist, it is dead, and I don't see anything that suggests they genuinely want to become the former. Nor should you, but right now there are a number of progressives essentially attempting to take over the party, and I think they deserve our support the real game will be to primary lovely dems in 2018
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Nov 21, 2016 20:41
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Either the progressives will take over the party, or there will be a rise of progressive parties.
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Nov 21, 2016 20:50
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Pollyanna posted:I have zero faith whatsoever that the Democrats are interested in reforming away from neoliberalism and Third Way because I have seen zero proof of it. If the Democratic party isn't socialist, it is dead, and I don't see anything that suggests they genuinely want to become the former. Then we have two choices, take over and purge any vocal neoliberals, or start anew.
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Nov 21, 2016 20:50
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Rastor posted:Either the progressives will take over the party, or there will be a rise of progressive parties. not with FPTP in place.
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Nov 21, 2016 20:58
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double nine posted:not with FPTP in place. Green party strategy notwithstanding there's a ton of elections that aren't to the Presidency, many of which see little to no competition and could be swept by a few hundred hippies voting in the same direction. That's kind of like herding cats but it's not gonna be much more difficult than primarying out establishment candidates Tea Party-style, if you value a symbolic clean slate over brand recognition. If instead of being a bunch of dudes who protest-vote for Che Guevara once every four years the Internet Trustfund Maoist party gets their people on the city council and proves effectual there, maybe takes mayor and dogcatcher in an off year, suddenly it's going to start looking a lot more appealing to Joe Voter to back the Internet Trustfund Maoist candidate for Congress. Maybe that guy can run for president someday, and get ratfucked by a mass-murdering sociopath billing herself as the tolerance vote. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 21:28
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Confounding Factor posted:The demographics are changing though, you think the Tea Party is going to be around after a decade? I don't think so. I look forward to when boomers are finally dead. It doesn't work that way, people become more conservative as they age. Every time an old coot dies someone else starts filling in a tax return and the cycle begins anew.
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Nov 21, 2016 21:41
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Nermal posted:It doesn't work that way, people become more conservative as they age. Every time an old coot dies someone else starts filling in a tax return and the cycle begins anew. This is a fallacy, people do not actually become noticeably more conservative as they age.
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Nov 21, 2016 21:45
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:This is a fallacy, people do not actually become noticeably more conservative as they age. I thought that they did but the starting point has moved with time
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Nov 21, 2016 21:51
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People do find it more difficult to adapt to change as they age, so in the sense of conservatism that it is an objection to change, people become more conservative as they age. But that doesn't mean that there's something about progressive ideology which would be rejected just because someone is older.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:00
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theflyingorc posted:I thought that they did but the starting point has moved with time We're all going to look like such dicks when our grandkids turn up the internet archive of our anti-otakukin hatespeech.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:11
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:We're all going to look like such dicks when our grandkids turn up the internet archive of our anti-otakukin hatespeech. Someday I'll run for office against somebody I dragged on twitter, and the interviewers will be like, "In 2016, you accused your opponent of being a Nazi. That doesn't sound very reasonable." *Opponent is running on the American Nazi Party incumbent ticket, shows up to rallies in military uniform with skull on the hat* Me: "Well, uh, he is one." Interviewer, stepping back a few paces: "You know the drone force doesn't allow that kind of flippant locker room talk, citizen  "
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Nov 21, 2016 22:28
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Nermal posted:It doesn't work that way, people become more conservative as they age. Every time an old coot dies someone else starts filling in a tax return and the cycle begins anew. Yeah, no. The Baby boomers are conservative because they always tended towards conservatism. They tied with support for Reagan in 1980 and have gotten progressively Republican seince then. Even in this lovely election we, and the later gen xers were a huge Blue block. While early gen xers go to the GOP by a bare majority.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:41
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