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We need every Democratic presidential candidate, from here to the end of time, to promise that they will close Gitmo.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:29
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Serf posted:depending on who you ask, this is actually the current Dem strategy but you get my point, right? it feels like people are too quick to try to copy the GOP/Trump's playbook without realizing it leads to the GOP and Trump, but with a D instead of an R, if that's all you care about then go hog wild!
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Nov 21, 2016 22:29
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Karl Sharks posted:i would rather avoid abandoning all hope of ever maintaining even the loosest grip on reality in this country hmmmmmmmmm not very nite crew but ill allow it!!!!!!!!
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Nov 21, 2016 22:30
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platzapS posted:There is an Orlando Democrats meeting tonight at 7pm at the IBEW Union Hall on Virginia Drive. i'll bump this for you onto the next page, i'm in NC tho so gl
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Nov 21, 2016 22:30
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https://twitter.com/motokorich/status/800810028789706752
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Nov 21, 2016 22:30
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Karl Sharks posted:but you get my point, right? it feels like people are too quick to try to copy the GOP/Trump's playbook without realizing it leads to the GOP and Trump, but with a D instead of an R, if that's all you care about then go hog wild! (mostly) truth went up against lies and it lost bigly the time has come to embrace the post-truth now
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Nov 21, 2016 22:31
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Not a Step posted:Trying to correct lies after theyve already been said and gone around the block a few times is a losing game. You need to be proactive and present a positive alternative to Trump, rather than reacting after the fact. Nobody is motivated by attempts to shame the other guy. Well, hardcore assholes that were already on your side I guess, but then they were already on your side so nobody *new* is motivated by shame. This. "Let's build a better world" works better than "vote for me or you're a bigot".
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Nov 21, 2016 22:31
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Former Everything posted:them lyin' dumbocrats tellin' me I'm bein' lied to but I read on truthwatchforjustice.nz.rus that dumbocrats eat children's organs on pizza or something and alex jones says that obummer and killary are demons and Hannity keeps sayin' that Trump will bring my job back and them immigrants who are simultaneously on welfare and taking my job will be thrown out by trebuchet so I know who I'm listenin' to! This is the winning formula: Smugly mock the voters Democrats need to win elections while also lamenting that this is the end of world and nothing matters.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:31
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Optimus Subprime posted:Also, inviting Tulsi Gabbard was probably Bannon's idea of loving with the progressive/Bernie bro base by having one of Bernie's supporters (who has her own issues) showing up and talking to djt. I don't recommend getting too caught up in any personality cult worship, just focus on the actual progressive movement itself. I half-believe that the early cabinet proposals being a collection of almost cartoonishly racist warmonger lunatics are a bit of a troll designed to get people riled up now so we're out of steam in January and the comparatively 'reasonable' group of cabinet members that gets rolled out instead will feel like a minor victory. (A slate who will still do all the same things that Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard The-South-Shall-Rise-Again Sessions and Secretary of Defense Forums Poster muslimstomper69 would).
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Nov 21, 2016 22:32
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comingafteryouall posted:The next Democratic president needs to be able to get out a simple graph that shows average wage staying the same while CEO wage sky rockets. Then just straight up say, "your bosses are taking all of your money, and I will take it back for you. They are robber barons with all of the power, and the only power you have is your vote. Use that power and take your money back."  this will not go well with rich democrats though... how can we coddle their economic anxiety?
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Nov 21, 2016 22:33
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Former Everything posted:them lyin' dumbocrats tellin' me I'm bein' lied to but I read on truthwatchforjustice.nz.rus that dumbocrats eat children's organs on pizza or something and alex jones says that obummer and killary are demons and Hannity keeps sayin' that Trump will bring my job back and them immigrants who are simultaneously on welfare and taking my job will be thrown out by trebuchet so I know who I'm listenin' to! because mocking people you need worked so well for the clinton campaign
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Nov 21, 2016 22:33
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tower time posted:There are a surprising number of people that think the polling failures were due to a coordinated campaign on the part of Trump supporters to lie about their support to every pollster. I chalked it up to shock at the loss initially, but there are still people out there that genuinely believe that was what caused problems in every state, with every single pollster. I just hope none of the the pollsters themselves are that dumb. I bet there was just an enthusiasm gap. When called by pollsters they understood Hillary was better than Trump, but when it came time to vote they expended the same amount of effort getting to the booth as the Democrats had expended on listening to their issues: none.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:33
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Former Everything posted:them lyin' dumbocrats tellin' me I'm bein' lied to but I read on truthwatchforjustice.nz.rus that dumbocrats eat children's organs on pizza or something and alex jones says that obummer and killary are demons and Hannity keeps sayin' that Trump will bring my job back and them immigrants who are simultaneously on welfare and taking my job will be thrown out by trebuchet so I know who I'm listenin' to! nopants posted:This is the winning formula: Smugly mock the voters Democrats need to win elections while also lamenting that this is the end of world and nothing matters. resar posted:because mocking people you need worked so well for the clinton campaign Smug is counterproductive, but the right-wing noise machine is a legitimate problem. Suggestions on combating it?
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Nov 21, 2016 22:34
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:
we could coddle them right into a guillotine
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Nov 21, 2016 22:34
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Serf posted:(mostly) truth went up against lies and it lost bigly i think liberals/progressive are p poo poo at messaging and framing the narrative/conversation, but that doesn't mean you need to rely on a lovely tactic that has worked it's like the Ds have been trying to eat soup with a knife, Rs have been using a fork, you could copy them or maybe try a spoon?? dumb analogy but i hope my point is getting across somehow
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Nov 21, 2016 22:36
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blue squares posted:Can you point me to any of the studies you're talking about? I would love to have them in my back pocket when I'm at Dem party meetings and other functions. Uh... neither of these are the ones I was thinking of, but a quick google search shows them as potentially relevant: quote:Attempts to increase concerns about communicable diseases or correct false claims about vaccines may be especially likely to be counterproductive. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365 Attempts to "correct" misinformation were largely ineffective and several types of corrections were actively harmful. --- quote:We did not see increases in parents’ MMR vaccine intentions for their infants when societal benefits were emphasized without mention of benefits directly to the child. This finding suggests that providers should emphasize benefits directly to the child. Mentioning societal benefits seems to neither add value to, nor interfere with, information highlighting benefits directly to the child. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/3/e675.long?trendmd-shared=0 Appealing to the benefits for society in general are ineffective. The message has to appeal to the person's interests directly. -- There's a lot of research out there on messaging about things like this, countering appealing misinformation is hard, but possible, and I think it's probably worth digging into that research. A lot of it seems applicable to political messaging.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:37
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Rastor posted:Smug is counterproductive, but the right-wing noise machine is a legitimate problem. Suggestions on combating it? Build a left wing positive noise machine to counter it and provide an alternate message for America. Its like in Ghostbusters 2, where they combat the evil negatively charged slime with the positively charged slime and call upon New Yorker's innate patriotism to shatter Vigo's evil shell. E: Who wiped my red text? Thanks, whoever it was! Any chance I could get my old TNC red text back? I was actually a fan of it Nix Panicus has issued a correction as of 22:41 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 22:39
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Not a Step posted:I bet there was just an enthusiasm gap. When called by pollsters they understood Hillary was better than Trump, but when it came time to vote they expended the same amount of effort getting to the booth as the Democrats had expended on listening to their issues: none. The LV screens were all wrong. A whole lot of Obama coalition voters just didn't show up
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Nov 21, 2016 22:39
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Karl Sharks posted:i think liberals/progressive are p poo poo at messaging and framing the narrative/conversation, but that doesn't mean you need to rely on a lovely tactic that has worked eating the soup with a spoon would work great but we're in Bizarro World and it turns out forks are how we eat soup here
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Nov 21, 2016 22:39
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GlyphGryph posted:Uh... neither of these are the ones I was thinking of, but a quick google search shows them as potentially relevant: it's called the backfire effect, catchy huh http://www.dartmouth.edu/~nyhan/nyhan-reifler.pdf
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Nov 21, 2016 22:40
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holy crap this thread is bipolar
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Nov 21, 2016 22:41
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Serf posted:eating the soup with a spoon would work great but we're in Bizarro World and it turns out forks are how we eat soup here - said the person who's never seen a spoon used
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Nov 21, 2016 22:41
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nopants posted:This is the winning formula: Smugly mock the voters Democrats need to win elections while also lamenting that this is the end of world and nothing matters. resar posted:because mocking people you need worked so well for the clinton campaign oh noes the voters who got their news from infowars didn't vote for clinton I'm sure that if only she had been more articulate in her policy they would have realized that she didn't in fact eat children and semen in satanistic rituals and that she wasn't literally a demon how could they have been so careless with the coveted infowars vote my point is that dems are facing a huge and mobilized propaganda machine built over decades by extremist right wingers and normalized by "mainstream" right wing news outlets. they are facing a party who obstructed the government to the point of shutdown for 8 years and blamed it on democrats despite controlling the house and senate for 6 years and candidates who will happily and unabashedly lie about any detail, big or small, and who will be the least transparent candidates in history (trump and bevin, to list two) running a charismatic figure who will campaign on lots of rosy promises and vague sweeping generalizations is the path to taking the presidency back and getting the wheels grinding on a propaganda arm is probably the best way to set the stage I'm not sure how making sure the progressive agenda is more clearly defined is going to win the election over transparent lies told to the desperate and backed by fake or faux news sites
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Nov 21, 2016 22:43
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Karl Sharks posted:- said the person who's never seen a spoon used can you give me an example of a time when it was used
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Nov 21, 2016 22:45
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Serf posted:can you give me an example of a time when it was used i don't get your point? i'm sure it has been used in politics somewhere, but i have no loving clue, that's not my point my point is that in the US i don't think it has been used so it should be tried out before we use the same plays as the bigoted political party that has a sizable portion of their party thinking hillary is literally the devil if you think that sort of mentality/mental framework leads to health politics then whooo boy
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Nov 21, 2016 22:47
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Fullhouse posted:The LV screens were all wrong. A whole lot of Obama coalition voters just didn't show up Those LV screens made the assumption that Clinton was as appealing as Obama, which is a pretty lol assumption. This is where a philosophy guy actually could have come in handy for the campaign. At any point someone could have pointed out the poor logic of just assuming 2008 and 2012 represented the new normal instead of being outliers and ordered up a round of internal poling to determine who the real LVs were, so the data guys could adjust the model. Your initial assumptions are massively important for any model and should be tested rigorously and repeatedly.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:47
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100 degrees Calcium posted:holy crap this thread is bipolar Yeah as far as I can tell there are tolwo kinda of posters in this thread, dudes trying to get involved amd poking the thread for ideas, and cowardly milkdrinkers who 180d after the election and are ignored by the first group since they'll whine post until the dems make gains wherein they'll 180 again
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Nov 21, 2016 22:48
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Yinlock posted:"why bother" is the exact attitude that got us into this mess platzapS posted:There is an Orlando Democrats meeting tonight at 7pm at the IBEW Union Hall on Virginia Drive. Consider posting this in the FL LAN thread if there is one
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Nov 21, 2016 22:49
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Agean90 posted:Yeah as far as I can tell there are tolwo kinda of posters in this thread, dudes trying to get involved amd poking the thread for ideas, and cowardly milkdrinkers who 180d after the election and are ignored by the first group since they'll whine post until the dems make gains wherein they'll 180 again can i be a third way poster and just be here to poo poo post?
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Nov 21, 2016 22:49
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Gringostar posted:can i be a third way poster and just be here to poo poo post? shitposters are always welcome, friend
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Nov 21, 2016 22:50
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Karl Sharks posted:they work with people who aren't on one side already, so the idea shouldn't be abandoned entirely Not... really. Counter-narratives work on neutrals. Corrections don't, really. Former Everything posted:I'm not sure how making sure the progressive agenda is more clearly defined is going to win the election over transparent lies told to the desperate and backed by fake or faux news sites The progressives arguing for a more clearly defined agenda are also the ones arguing we need to have an effective propaganda wing to sell are counter-narrarative though? I'm not sure who you're arguing against here. Karl Sharks posted:he has a point, yeah lying is effective to a point We don't have to lie or use racist rhetoric. We could, you know, build a coherent narrative and actually push it and all the ways Trump is failing to live up to it and how we're gonna help the common man and actually believe it. That's always an option. We got to at least give people an alternative to believe in instead of the lies - knocking the lies out of their heads just leaves them in the same spot ready to accept the next lie to come along - we need to replace it with a positive belief.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:51
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Rastor posted:Smug is counterproductive, but the right-wing noise machine is a legitimate problem. Suggestions on combating it? The right has an incredibly effective media machine pushing their beliefs and to counter that the left needs one of their own. We mock people like Alex Jones for being crazy wierdos but the reason people tune in daily to his show is because he takes their real world problems and gives them solutions.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:51
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Karl Sharks posted:i don't get your point? i'm sure it has been used in politics somewhere, but i have no loving clue, that's not my point I want the spoon to work, I really do. I just have no faith that it will.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:52
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Are we really regressing to ancient times when merely saying a thing's name gives it power? Like, "Donald Trump is bad" is the same as "Donald Trump is good" because I have said "Donald Trump" and thereby made him strong with word magic. Or if I said, "The Infrastructure Plan is a scam" vs "The Infrastructure Plan will MAGA." I'm actually increasing support for it either way??
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Nov 21, 2016 22:54
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Gringostar posted:can i be a third way poster and just be here to poo poo post? shitposting is a form of dissent
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Nov 21, 2016 22:54
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there's also a Hillsborough County Democrats meeting in Tampa tonight at 7 but the only goon I know in Tampa is Jon Pop and I don't want him going there so I don't know what good it does to post that
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Nov 21, 2016 22:56
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Are we really regressing to ancient times when merely saying a thing's name gives it power? You're increasing awareness of The Infrastructure Plan either way and people who believe it will MAGA will believe it even more if you tell them it's a scam. You need to propose your own Infrastructure Plan which is Way Awesomer.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:57
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https://twitter.com/maddow/status/800816335882244097
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Nov 21, 2016 22:57
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GlyphGryph posted:Not... really. Counter-narratives work on neutrals. Corrections don't, really. so let the GOP decide their reality and we decide ours, that's fantastic again, i'm not saying focus on just correcting, but if you have the next R and D candidates in a debate and the R candidate says "my opponent thinks we should kill all white people" do you not say "correct that, then immediately pivot to your views on race and how we can come together as americans"? if you cede the ground entirely then you give them more power quote:We don't have to lie or use racist rhetoric. We could, you know, build a coherent narrative and actually push it and all the ways Trump is failing to live up to it and how we're gonna help the common man and actually believe it. That's always an option. We got to at least give people an alternative to believe in instead of the lies - knocking the lies out of their heads just leaves them in the same spot ready to accept the next lie to come along - we need to replace it with a positive belief. i'm arguing against the idea of lying to win, never said anything against (the opposite, in face!) improving messaging and stop worrying so much about how we can react to the republicans and instead bulldoze forward with our own messaging/narrative Serf posted:I want the spoon to work, I really do. I just have no faith that it will. so you're for lying to win? okay cool
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Nov 21, 2016 22:57
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GlyphGryph posted:We don't have to lie or use racist rhetoric. We could, you know, build a coherent narrative and actually push it and all the ways Trump is failing to live up to it and how we're gonna help the common man and actually believe it. That's always an option. We got to at least give people an alternative to believe in instead of the lies - knocking the lies out of their heads just leaves them in the same spot ready to accept the next lie to come along - we need to replace it with a positive belief. The thing with racism is that it has broad appeal to people who have been taught not to hope for much and to blame all of their problems on someone else. You can present a positive counter-message to 'ITS ALL THE BROWNS FAULT' but it takes more effort and a clear agenda. The thing is though, you don't even need to appeal to racists. The Obama coalition definitely showed that there are enough non-racist votes out there to win the Presidency and sweep the House and Senate if you bring a positive enough message. The goal is not to appeal to Republicans, but to increase turn out of Democratic voters. To turn out Dem voters you need a positive message *and* credibility that you will follow through. Obama burned a lot of the faith and credit of the Democratic electorate, but that doesn't mean its impossible to get back. Don't appeal to Republicans. Activate the Democratic coalition.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:57
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