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Gaia is pissed.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:58
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Serf posted:Hey, send me an e-mail, the district chair wants to have lunch with you.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:58
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Karl Sharks posted:so you're for lying to win? okay cool I am for doing whatever it takes to win. By any means necessary and all that
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Nov 21, 2016 22:58
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Rastor posted:You're increasing awareness of The Infrastructure Plan either way and people who believe it will MAGA will believe it even more if you tell them it's a scam. and then they'll say your plan involves raising taxes on every american and construction workers sitting around on their asses for 12 hours a day while the project never gets completed
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Nov 21, 2016 22:59
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GlyphGryph posted:Hey, send me an e-mail, the district chair wants to have lunch with you. Will do as soon as I get home.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:59
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Serf posted:I am for doing whatever it takes to win. By any means necessary and all that i hear fascism is in now, you could try using that to win?
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Nov 21, 2016 23:00
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You don't have to create an alternate reality. You just need to have actual arguments in response instead of lovely politifact parsing that is openly biased. Hell, I'd assert that politifact did more to reinforce the idea that people in power are trying to lie to the common man than it did to clear anything up.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:01
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Are we really regressing to ancient times when merely saying a thing's name gives it power? Its more like saying 'Donald Trump is bad' won't shift any opinions and will make those who think 'Donald Trump is good' double down. Neutrals already get both messages and have decided to stay neutral because reasons, so screaming 'DONALD TRUMP BAD' in their face isn't going to win any hearts/minds and might make them more sympathetic to 'TRUMP GOOD' because you're being a screaming jackass. Instead of 'Trump is bad!' try 'Hillary is good because she will do these awesome things for *you*' to influence and persuade (assuming they believe Hillary will actually do the thing, which is where her credibility issues shot her in the foot).
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Nov 21, 2016 23:04
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Creating a proactive compelling narrative based on facts is the solution, not outright lying or just reactionarily responding to lies.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:04
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Karl Sharks posted:and then they'll say your plan involves raising taxes on every american and construction workers sitting around on their asses for 12 hours a day while the project never gets completed who gives a gently caress what they say. they have a guy saying the global elites take dmt to talk to elves from the 4th dimension. if you spend all your time worrying about what the mean republicans will say you lose.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:04
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Karl Sharks posted:again, i'm not saying focus on just correcting, but if you have the next R and D candidates in a debate and the R candidate says "my opponent thinks we should kill all white people" do you not say "correct that, then immediately pivot to your views on race and how we can come together as americans"? if you cede the ground entirely then you give them more power Corrections actually do work in the heat of the moment, from what I understand - but that's hard to do with generalized correct-the-record campaigns. It's ineffective if you have to bring the lie back up (especially if you're exposing people who have never seen it to begin with) to correct it. Also, you need to be aggressive so the other guy has to waste time responding even then (and hopefully you're saying things that are true so they have a harder time refuting it), so an incidental correction as part of an alternative idea is more effective. Don't say "I don't want to kill all white people!", actually present an argument that can stick in the person's head, otherwise all they remember is "I remember something about that person and killing white people, and I heard the association twice, from both of them, so it must be true!" You got to say "I want to make this country better for white people, just like I want to make it better for people who are not white, and I will fight for that better life for you and your families, unlike my opponent who is willing to sell you up the river if the right investor comes calling." So now they aren't hearing you being associated with killing white people twice in a row, they're getting two contradictory messages and yours might actually push the other one out.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:05
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Optimus Subprime posted:Creating a proactive compelling narrative based on facts is the solution, not outright lying or just reactionarily responding to lies. For real, this.There's no need to make anything up. The people we're talking about are so lovely that the things they do or attempt to do are largely worse than most poo poo we could come up with. It's all a matter of someone with half a brain looking at all that poo poo and then crafting a narrative around it.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:07
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resar posted:who gives a gently caress what they say. they have a guy saying the global elites take dmt to talk to elves from the 4th dimension. if you spend all your time worrying about what the mean republicans will say you lose. To reiterate: gently caress REPUBLICANS. The Democrats do NOT need Republican votes, and chasing them is a foolish waste of time. There is an *ocean* of votes out there who could be motivated to turn out for the Democrats. They have before, they could again. WE DO NOT NEED TO APPEAL TO REPUBLICANS!
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Nov 21, 2016 23:08
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resar posted:who gives a gently caress what they say. they have a guy saying the global elites take dmt to talk to elves from the 4th dimension. if you spend all your time worrying about what the mean republicans will say you lose. because if you don't push back on the lies about it raising taxes by 100% for middle class americans, you've already lost that argument with basically everyone GlyphGryph posted:Corrections actually do work in the heat of the moment, from what I understand - but that's hard to do with generalized correct-the-record campaigns. It's ineffective if you have to bring the lie back up (especially if you're exposing people who have never seen it to begin with) to correct it. Also, you need to be aggressive so the other guy has to waste time responding even then (and hopefully you're saying things that are true so they have a harder time refuting it), so an incidental correction as part of an alternative idea is more effective. i totally get what you're saying and agree to a point, i still think you need someone making sure thinks are fact checked so you don't go home and google something and get 2 competing realities, instead of one reality and one fantasy. that just seems like a very dangerous road to go down and we, not necessarily the DNC, can put 15% of our efforts out of this new messaging plan to make sure we still have the facts on our side when you stop caring about making a fact based case to others, you stop caring about facts yourself *shoots glance over at GOP*
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Nov 21, 2016 23:08
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Karl Sharks posted:and then they'll say your plan involves raising taxes on every american and construction workers sitting around on their asses for 12 hours a day while the project never gets completed Wonderful. Amazing. Let them say this, let them give me more opportunities to talk about my plan. Every minute they spend trying to counter my plan is a reminder to people my plan exists, an opportunity to reiterate and have it actually stick in their heads. "My plan involves putting Americans to work, it involves giving us the infrastructure we need. My opponent is worried that he, a member of the billionaire class, might have to pay back some of what he stole from you - can you believe that! I am trying to give you the chance to support your family, and he's complaining that you won't be working hard enough making him extra cash. I'm going to BLAH BLAH BLAH and you'll be so much better for it!"
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Nov 21, 2016 23:09
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bump_fn posted:Consider posting this in the FL LAN thread if there is one What is a LAN thread?
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Nov 21, 2016 23:10
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GlyphGryph posted:Wonderful. Amazing. Let them say this, let them give me more opportunities to talk about my plan. Every minute they spend trying to counter my plan is a reminder to people my plan exists, an opportunity to reiterate and have it actually stick in their heads. anyone who is neutral will shut off after hearing about taxes being raised e: i think really the problem with what you're saying, which is like only 5% of the whole really we're in agreement on most of this, is that you think the backfire effect is some untouchable, everpresent thing; it's essentially an extension of the confirmation bias so it is really at its prime when the lie confirms a previous belief and you try to correct it, but if you're dealing in neutral people who have only just "heard about that plan" then you still have time to swoop in Karl Sharks has issued a correction as of 23:13 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 23:10
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Not a Step posted:To reiterate: gently caress REPUBLICANS. Hold on, friend, all you're doing is reinforcing people's existing desire to gently caress republicans.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:13
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TyrantWD posted:Bernie and his movement are irrelevant. nasty guy what a nasty guy lyin' TyrantWD
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Nov 21, 2016 23:15
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GlyphGryph posted:Wonderful. Amazing. Let them say this, let them give me more opportunities to talk about my plan. Every minute they spend trying to counter my plan is a reminder to people my plan exists, an opportunity to reiterate and have it actually stick in their heads. I like this post
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Nov 21, 2016 23:15
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Karl Sharks posted:anyone who is neutral will shut off after hearing about taxes being raised This is more a problem for you than me since you are the one who wants them to hear it twice, isnt it?
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Nov 21, 2016 23:17
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Hold on, friend, all you're doing is reinforcing people's existing desire to gently caress republicans. Good? Because there are more than enough non-Republican votes out there to make it unnecessary to appeal to Republican ideals. E: I don't have a witty comeback for the intended joke  Karl Sharks posted:anyone who is neutral will shut off after hearing about taxes being raised Don't fall into the Reagan trap. People used to pay a *lot* more in taxes in America. I think part of it is no one really sees what their taxes buy anymore. We need more space launches and Hoover Dams and less foreign interventions and Wall Street kickbacks.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:18
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:
No War but Class War, friend.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:18
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Not a Step posted:To reiterate: gently caress REPUBLICANS. but chuck schumer said clinton would win by flipping suburban republicans!
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Nov 21, 2016 23:23
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GlyphGryph posted:This is more a problem for you than me since you are the one who wants them to hear it twice, isnt it? if you do nothing, not even offhandedly, to say "you're not going to be paying more taxes for this" then it's a problem for everyone i have never said all of the efforts should be on corrections or anything like that, but look quote:"My plan involves putting Americans to work, it involves giving us the infrastructure we need without making the middle class pay a dime for it. My opponent is worried that he, a member of the billionaire class, might have to pay back some of what he stole from you - can you believe that! Him and his friends use accounting tricks to pay less in taxes than you do! It's time we make them pay their fair share to rebuild our nation, starting with our roads and bridges. I am trying to give you the chance to support your family, and he's complaining that you won't be working hard enough making him extra cash. I'm going to BLAH BLAH BLAH and you'll be so much better for it!" your message before never explicitly or implicitly said they would actually pay for it, so that person who heard they're going to pay more in taxes for it still will say "okay, that's great other people will get a job, but i have one, my roads are okay and i pay too much in taxes already, gently caress that"
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Nov 21, 2016 23:24
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also, i decided to actually play this through but dont want to mess up this thread, which is actually relatively productive and good, so i made a new one: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3798892
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Nov 21, 2016 23:24
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Not a Step posted:Don't fall into the Reagan trap. People used to pay a *lot* more in taxes in America. I think part of it is no one really sees what their taxes buy anymore. We need more space launches and Hoover Dams and less foreign interventions and Wall Street kickbacks. i didn't fall for anything? i'm saying what other people fall for, you don't need to convince me, you need to convince my mom who voted for obama in 08 but has resorted back to "eh, they both suck" until recently
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Nov 21, 2016 23:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuBvxb2UUHo Taxes are cool and good. gently caress, issue Infrastructure bonds and let everyone pay for it.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:27
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LegoPirateNinja posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuBvxb2UUHo Problem is even when you say your only going to tax the rich the middle class immediately assumes they are next and panic, because the majority of them have poo poo finances that can't handle financial shock
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Nov 21, 2016 23:33
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Karl Sharks posted:if you do nothing, not even offhandedly, to say "you're not going to be paying more taxes for this" then it's a problem for everyone i literally while writing this response had to go up up and reread you post because all I could remember of the changes you made was you talking about raising taxes on the middle class, lol. Its a distraction, and a bad one. dont feed your opponents
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Nov 21, 2016 23:38
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GlyphGryph posted:i literally while writing this response had to go up up and reread you post because all I could remember of the changes you made was you talking about raising taxes on the middle class, lol. instead just let them keep screaming "IT'S GOING TO TO RAISE TAXES" without fighting it at all, instead ignoring it and talking about how awesome it will be while everyone else has already shut you out because they think it'll raise taxes
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Nov 21, 2016 23:41
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zen death robot posted:I'm guessing everyone realizes that Gabbard is bad now huh Yeah
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Nov 21, 2016 23:43
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Agean90 posted:Problem is even when you say your only going to tax the rich the middle class immediately assumes they are next and panic, because the majority of them have poo poo finances that can't handle financial shock the problem with this is people making $60k a year in a multi-person household thinking they're middle class we'll leave them alone but the HENRY people need to pay up
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Nov 21, 2016 23:44
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Karl Sharks posted:instead just let them keep screaming "IT'S GOING TO TO RAISE TAXES" without fighting it at all, instead ignoring it and talking about how awesome it will be while everyone else has already shut you out because they think it'll raise taxes We just got out of a presidential campaign where one side kept screaming "HE"S A RAPIST HATE GOLEM" and lost. worrying about what the other side says about taxes is hand wringing at this point
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Nov 21, 2016 23:47
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zen death robot posted:I'm guessing everyone realizes that Gabbard is bad now huh Realized it within a day of her supporting Bernie. Seemed cool at first but then I saw the anti-muslim poo poo among other stuff and realized she mostly just saw which way the wind was blowing and picked accordingly.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:47
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Karl Sharks posted:instead just let them keep screaming "IT'S GOING TO TO RAISE TAXES" without fighting it at all, instead ignoring it and talking about how awesome it will be while everyone else has already shut you out because they think it'll raise taxes No, because if you are selling a narrative that is more appealing while also attacking them, no one is going to believe them and in order to repea it they need to leave your criticism unaddressed and undermining their own argument. I did respond - by attacking. Attacking their credibility and giving people a REASON to disbelieve them. Thats a lot more damaging to their argument than giving them free associativr ammo
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Nov 21, 2016 23:48
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Karl Sharks posted:i hear fascism is in now, you could try using that to win? lie, cheat, steal, kill bing bong boom so simple Agean90 posted:Problem is even when you say your only going to tax the rich the middle class immediately assumes they are next and panic, because the majority of them have poo poo finances that can't handle financial shock I figure you try to demonstrate your intentions by taking that wealth inequality chart and circling the top little bit up there while saying "these motherfuckers right here gotta go"
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Nov 21, 2016 23:48
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she's supposed to be an economic populist (which is why she went for bernie) but she lusts for muslim death (which is why she's going to be trump's token democrat)
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Nov 21, 2016 23:48
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Yeah focus on "high earners" paying. Don't get caught up in the nebulous middle class label.
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Nov 21, 2016 23:48
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the only hope now is that dems have a second obama-like candidate who comes out of fuckin nowhere to take over except lol that isn't happening buckle up for two term trump
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Nov 21, 2016 23:49
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