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TheScott2K posted:I'm really really curious who these mythical white Obama voters who switched to Trump were, and how many they number. They're not mythical white voters, they're just dissilutioned working class voters. Just tired that after 8 years of not really seeing their situation change they either didn't vote or voted a combination of third party / trump. I think it was Pain Frame or something like that that posted a good article describing the situation in Milwaukee for a bunch of black working class guys who were tired of waiting for change and just abstained from voting or wrote their own names in. They had ALL voted for Obama both times, but realized poo poo wasn't gonna change. It's kinda sad actually.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:09
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While they made a poor decision - I am very, very confident indeed that Donald Trump will not improve the lives of a bunch of working class black men in Milwaukee - it's understandable. That's why we need good enough messaging and candidates to retake Congress and the White House. Bit of a tall order, yeah, but beats the alternative.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:13
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Business Gorillas posted:the inability for establishment democrats to understand that people just want to make a thing they can be proud of, clock out at the end of the day, and have live in reasonable comfort and stability until their joints give out is the reason why we lost, actually There are plenty of leftists who believe that the point of socialism is to let everyone laze about and chill. Just saying the disconnect effects both groups. Meanwhile they call people lazy when they also don't realize that "body destroying" is often part of the job description for a majority of jobs in some communities.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:16
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Maybe some working class men (of color) made self-destructive voting decisions due to sexism.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:19
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GreyjoyBastard posted:While they made a poor decision - I am very, very confident indeed that Donald Trump will not improve the lives of a bunch of working class black men in Milwaukee - it's understandable. Yea, they probably chose poorly. But as a member of the working class, I also totally empathize with them.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:19
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JeffersonClay posted:Maybe some working class men (of color) made self-destructive voting decisions due to sexism. I don't think so...
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Nov 22, 2016 05:20
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Did Republicans get all bent out of shape about Ross Perot voters? Or is it just Democrats who pull that poo poo?
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Nov 22, 2016 05:21
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:I don't think so... Why not?
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Nov 22, 2016 05:21
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JeffersonClay posted:Maybe some working class men (of color) made self-destructive voting decisions due to sexism. lol get hosed with this nonsense. It's not productive to make these accusations.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:23
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Neither party is a friend to the working class
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Nov 22, 2016 05:25
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Jeez, if he keeps pulling boners like this he will never get elected president.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:26
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Telephones posted:lol get hosed with this nonsense. It's not productive to make these accusations. People seem to be pretty open with saying that Racism was a huge part of the race. Why isn't it even OK to discuss the possibility that sexism might have been a factor?
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Nov 22, 2016 05:26
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JeffersonClay posted:Maybe some working class men (of color) made self-destructive voting decisions due to sexism. Maybe Hillary was no better than Trump
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Nov 22, 2016 05:26
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Guy Goodbody posted:Did Republicans get all bent out of shape about Ross Perot voters? Or is it just Democrats who pull that poo poo? Well they spent the entire Clinton Presidency desperately searching for an excuse to impeach him, does that count as being bent out of shape? Also they didn't have an internet to chatter amongst themselves nonstop.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:27
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I think it's really dishonest to say, "How could a black person not vote for Hillary?!!?!??!?!" as if all black people are the same and have the same circumstances and decisions surrounding their vote. It's even more dishonest to say that if they did vote for Trump then it must have been because sexism trumps self-interest.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:27
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Guy Goodbody posted:Did Republicans get all bent out of shape about Ross Perot voters? Or is it just Democrats who pull that poo poo? Why would they? Perot voters were equally inclined to have Clinton and Bush as their second choices in the 1992 election.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:28
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Business Gorillas posted:the inability for establishment democrats to understand that people just want to make a thing they can be proud of, clock out at the end of the day, and have live in reasonable comfort and stability until their joints give out is the reason why we lost, actually no, you're playing on romantic fantasies of the working class in order to use that as a rhetorical weapon against centrist liberals mike rowe of "a job is a job" fame kind of deflates the idea that the noble craftsman is anything more than a dumb myth. you have a job and you do it to survive > the only work good enough for me is well paid factory labor
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Nov 22, 2016 05:28
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Xae posted:People seem to be pretty open with saying that Racism was a huge part of the race. Racism won Trump the GOP nomination but it didnt stop millions of Democrats from not voting
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Nov 22, 2016 05:29
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It is kind of odd how even the slightest whiff of an insinuation that there are voters for whom sexism was a factor seems to get immediately shot down from every angle. And by "odd" I mean "evidence of pervasive sexism."
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Nov 22, 2016 05:29
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TheScott2K posted:Well they spent the entire Clinton Presidency desperately searching for an excuse to impeach him, does that count as being bent out of shape? I mean did they get mad at Perot voters. I'm just wondering if it's a uniquely Democratic trait to act like voting third party is a betrayal.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:29
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Telephones posted:lol get hosed with this nonsense. It's not productive to make these accusations. Sexism is obviously a motivating factor in the US electorate, the question is how many people were motivated by sexism.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:30
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JeffersonClay posted:Why not? Do you have any evidence for it?
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Nov 22, 2016 05:31
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Guy Goodbody posted:I mean did they get mad at Perot voters. I'm just wondering if it's a uniquely Democratic trait to act like voting third party is a betrayal. The entire pretense of voting democratic rests on the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils and most people really hate doing that. Those that just flippantly ignore that broken logic are chastised for doing so. JeffersonClay posted:Sexism is obviously a motivating factor in the US electorate, the question is how many people were motivated by sexism. Define "motivated by sexism"
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Nov 22, 2016 05:31
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TheScott2K posted:It is kind of odd how even the slightest whiff of an insinuation that there are voters for whom sexism was a factor seems to get immediately shot down from every angle. And by "odd" I mean "evidence of pervasive sexism." Saying 2016 was a reactionary shitstorm with huge waves of Xenophobia, Racism and Religious Persecution gets greeted with "duh". But sexism is a bridge too far. Xae fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 05:32
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JeffersonClay posted:Sexism is obviously a motivating factor in the US electorate, the question is how many people were motivated by sexism. Xae posted:Saying 2016 was a reactionary shitstorm with huge waves of Xenophobia, Racism and Religrious Persecution gets greeted with "duh". Considering the poltical science literatute suggests women face little or no electoral disadvantage due to their gender I'd say not much
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Nov 22, 2016 05:32
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JeffersonClay posted:Why not? I think since you're the one making the claim you have to come up with evidence as to why you think these barbers trying to make a living are actually sexist bros. E : At some point in the next 8 years we are going to have to get people to admit that no one liked their candidate white sauce fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 05:33
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Guy Goodbody posted:I mean did they get mad at Perot voters. I'm just wondering if it's a uniquely Democratic trait to act like voting third party is a betrayal. Bush versus Clinton didn't present a known existential threat to huge numbers of Americans. The Cold War was over and terrorists couldn't carve buildings out of the NYC skyline. Temperatures were lower. 2000 arguably swung Bush's way thanks to Nader and it ended up being a disaster for the country. That'll leave an impression. So I guess the answer to your question is "not to the degree it is today among Democrats."
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Nov 22, 2016 05:33
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icantfindaname posted:Do you have any evidence for it? What, that sexism exists and influences voting behavior? icantfindaname posted:Considering the poltical science literatute suggests women face little or no electoral disadvantage due to their gender I'd say not much Does that political science literature isolate the three swing states that Hillary lost because she won the popular vote by a significant margin.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:34
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Would Trump have won if he were against Obama running for a third term? (assuming he was allowed a third term)
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Nov 22, 2016 05:34
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TheScott2K posted:Bush versus Clinton didn't present a known existential threat to huge numbers of Americans. 2000 arguably swung Bush's way thanks to Nader and it ended up being a disaster for the country. That'll leave an impression. So I guess the answer to your question is "not to the degree it is today among Democrats." Didn't 2000 swing Bush's way thanks to Bush? I'm like, 95% sure more people voted for Bush than Nader. At least twice as many.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:34
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I look forward to reading how sexism turned Hillary into an absolutely awful candidate
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Nov 22, 2016 05:35
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1-800-DOCTORB posted:Would Trump have won if he were against Obama running for a third term? (assuming he was allowed a third term) Almost assuredly not because Hillary lost entirely because of being a horrible candidate on top of running a horrible campaign, both of which Obama has demonstrated quite clearly he is capable of both being and doing. Anyone who talks about racism or sexism is just an idiot who hasn't taken a look an honest look at the GOP's base in a long time
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Nov 22, 2016 05:35
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:I think since you're the one making the claim you have to come up with evidence as to why you think these barbers trying to make a living are actually sexist bros. I'm providing exactly as much evidence as people asserting that economic concerns or hillary's personality motivated people's voting behavior.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:35
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Proud Christian Mom posted:I look forward to reading how sexism turned Hillary into an absolutely awful candidate It's pretty pathetic
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Nov 22, 2016 05:36
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1-800-DOCTORB posted:Would Trump have won if he were against Obama running for a third term? (assuming he was allowed a third term) No. Incumbent intertia, rosy economic numbers, and Obama's ability to get Democratic voters to actually want to vote for him would have done the job. It's a lot harder to vote for Trump when his opponent isn't a hypothetical President but a real, arguably successful one. Guy Goodbody posted:Didn't 2000 swing Bush's way thanks to Bush? Are you not familiar with the 2000 election or are you being purposely dense?
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Nov 22, 2016 05:37
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm providing exactly as much evidence as people asserting that economic concerns or hillary's personality motivated people's voting behavior. Good thing we have first hand accounts of people voting against Hillary precisely because of economic concerns and not because they're wife beating misogynistic bros.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:37
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Just  at the idea in this thread right now that sexism is just not possible in US politics.Racism? Yeah you bet, it's the subtext to so many things. Sexism? Nope, not in any way possible, not even as subtext.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:37
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm providing exactly as much evidence as people asserting that economic concerns or hillary's personality motivated people's voting behavior. Can you by chance share the story of someone who you think didn't vote for Hillary because of "sexism"?
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Nov 22, 2016 05:38
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Boon posted:Just No one is saying this. I'm referring to a specific group of black men who didn't vote this election because they knew it was not gonna change poo poo for them.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:38
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Boon posted:Just Contrast that with all the "of course those people aren't going to vote for the black guy" that flew around in 2008 and 2012 and it's clear that racism > sexism in this forum's opinion.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:38
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