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Im guessing McGillis will set up Tekkadan as the rulers of Mars to make them the enemy of Earth to wipe them out and solidify his power.
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Nov 21, 2016 06:03
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Darth Walrus posted:I don't think the main concern is that McGillis will just randomly betray them (though he sure is fond of discarding allies to further his goals). I think the main concern is what he'll ask of them until they feel forced to betray him. Guy's imposing a tiny, top-down chain of command on the entire freakin' solar system. That never ends well. I don't think it'll be a straight-up betrayal. Rather, at some point McGillis and Tekkadan will not agree on how to proceed from a future development, and that will lead to warfare. Gridlocked posted:Also on this recent episode do we think that Masked Mans comment that the special person who was "loyal and all that" in his life is "close to him" is implying that maybe he's got PARTS of Ein in his suit? I think it's just supposed to be Gaelio is keeping what happened to Ein in his memories, and might be trying to keep things from repeating with Juletta.
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Nov 21, 2016 06:25
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Gotta admit, thinking on it I think the offer is genuine. He's never really lied to Mika or Orga. He's not above using people, but the people he explicitly used were also part of the system he sought to destroy and rebuild. I don't think it's literally offering Tekkadan rule over Mars, more offering for them to take over its protection and arbitration duties full time. He seemed keen to remind Orga about Kudelia wanting independence, after all. Tekkadan taking over for the Mars branch pretty much leads to defacto Martian independence. Simplifying independence for Mars to "you'd be the ones in charge of it all" works, and appeals to Orga's obsessive need to secure more and more security and power for his family. McGillis has a love for the dramatic, and Orga still thinks in huge, dramatic absolutes. That and McGillis already said flat out that he wants Tekkadan on his side and when Orga asked about the rewards to outweigh the costs not being enough McGillis said he'd just keep offering more and more until the pros outweigh the cons. Orga showed some doubts over why McGillis is favoring Tekkadan so much, so he said gently caress it and put the ultimate card on the table to remove those doubts. IBO also seems to love playing around with a lot of the traditional tropes for the franchise, so having THE CHAR turn out to be a complete and utter bastard to those of the group he's against while remaining fiercely, if almost irrationally, loyal to the protagonist group of child mercenaries works out. Plus with Lafter falling in love with Akihiro that opens an obvious avenue for her being torn between loyalty to the Turbines and her love of him, along with the anti-Tekkadan elements in Teiwaz that clearly resent their quick rise to power, prominence, and fortune. The "Kings of Mars" thing would also let McGillis bow out and decide the Tekkadan/Teiwaz war isn't his drat problem.
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Nov 21, 2016 09:39
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McGillis betraying Tekkadan would be the single most boring choice they could make, so I'm going to continue assuming that McGillis genuinely means well for Tekkadan and Mars and will stay a morally ambiguous good guy until the end.
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Nov 21, 2016 10:12
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Teiwaz and nobliss are still huge factions untouched and there's still way over half a season to go.
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Nov 21, 2016 13:13
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Tae posted:Teiwaz and nobliss are still huge factions untouched and there's still way over half a season to go. I can't imagine Nobliss would be too happy if Tekkadan suddenly becomes defacto boss of Mars. Nobliss and/or civil war with Teiwaz defiantly being set up as next big bads.
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Nov 21, 2016 13:55
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Tae posted:Teiwaz and nobliss are still huge factions untouched and there's still way over half a season to go. There's going to be conflict with both but I'm expecting Teiwaz to be more of an internal thing. Having to put the turbines directly against Tekkadan might be threading old ground but theres definitely going to be the added interpersonal issues. But they've been setting up the old man as sort of this mellowed out dude that seems to favoring tekkadan a lot, so its not beyond the realm of possibilities that he'll be ok with it because he sees the possibility of expanding his own reach. Either way, there's bound to be conflict because some of the guys at teiwaz aren't going to like it. Maybe it costs the old man his life and we'll get to see Naze taking on the Don position, after the civil war is dealth with, which will lead to an even stronger Tekkadan.
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Nov 21, 2016 16:42
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Teiwaz being the final boss is the most fitting thing becomes it fits the the Gundam tradition of everything from Jupiter being terrible.
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Nov 21, 2016 17:40
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Lemon-Lime posted:McGillis betraying Tekkadan would be the single most boring choice they could make, so I'm going to continue assuming that McGillis genuinely means well for Tekkadan and Mars and will stay a morally ambiguous good guy until the end. I'd disagree, both because it would give the show a really uncomfortable message (yay benevolent dictators, yay hard men doing hard things), and because enough of the show has been set up to indicate that he isn't the answer the solar system needs that him staying as a hero would feel like a betrayal of what's gone before. Basically, there's three issues here. * Season Two doesn't exist in a vacuum. We've seen what happens when McGillis invites useful, powerful, ideologically-aligned friends to help him reform the solar system, and it isn't pretty. Seriously, he had two friends in the Seven Stars and a boatload of blackmail material on his dad (the Alaya-Vijnana facility alone...). He didn't need to go with his elaborate plan at the end of Season One if he just wanted to fix Gjallarhorn - he could simply have shared a couple more secrets with Gaelio and had him do it. All he accomplished was eliminating the reform faction and taking all their power and influence for himself. In a choice between helping the world and helping himself, we already know which way he jumps. * Even if he's being completely on the level about what he wants to do and why, that means he wants to install himself as the supreme, unchallenged autarch of the solar system and have one of his vassal-planets run by a bunch of child soldiers who solve all their problems through violence. Seriously. Tekkadan. Running a planet. Do I even need to stress how much bad poo poo has the potential to go down here? * We already have someone being set up as a worthy leader to fix what's wrong with the solar system. If McGillis is on the level and everything works out fine, what's left for Kudelia to do? On Nobliss, I'm not sure he'll end up being an enemy of Tekkadan just yet. He wants the solar system to descend into bloody mayhem so he can make fat stacks of cash. Going by his stated goals alone, Mchillus is setting himself up as a pretty promising chaos candidate, and that may well be enough to win Mr. Gordon over.
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Nov 21, 2016 17:48
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Would Teiwaz necessarily be unhappy with one of their subsidiaries being given a planet? If Tekkadan were to turn their backs on Teiwaz because FREE MARS YAY KUDELIA then sure, there's a conflict, but otherwise it's great for Teiwaz if they have a base inside the asteroid belt courtesy of Tekkadan.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:09
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Midjack posted:Would Teiwaz necessarily be unhappy with one of their subsidiaries being given a planet? If Tekkadan were to turn their backs on Teiwaz because FREE MARS YAY KUDELIA then sure, there's a conflict, but otherwise it's great for Teiwaz if they have a base inside the asteroid belt courtesy of Tekkadan. It means that one of their subsidiaries would have significantly more power than the main organisation does. That's never good news for a crime syndicate's stability, and would have pretty much everyone else in the organisation clamouring for their blood before they get sidelined. That guy in the yellow jacket we've seen at the meetings this season is probably going to make the first move - his fears have just been justified in the most spectacular way possible.
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Nov 21, 2016 18:17
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I feel like the focus on McGillis distracts from what's really important, which is Orga's reasons to accept his offer despite his doubts about the situation. Orga's motives are essentially that if his organisation grows big enough no one will be able to hurt his people and everyone will be able to live well. In order to accomplish that goal, he understands and accepts that he's going to get a lot of people killed, but he asserts to himself and to others that all these sacrifices will be redeemed by the happiness enjoyed when they triumph and reach the promised place. His relationship with Mika is ground zero for all this, but the dynamic holds true for everyone who is still a member of Tekkadan in less explicit terms. Everyone trusts Orga to lead them to the promised place. Biscuit was a character who could see Tekkadan's situation in strategic terms and criticised Orga's narrative. At the same time, he was a member of Tekkadan who believed in Orga. It's very difficult to determine what the outcome of his conflict with Orga would have been prior to his sudden death. It's entirely possible Biscuit would have clambered, however doubtfully, back onto the Orga train. But with his death a crucial voice was lost and the most recent episode really highlighted that. When Orga consulted on a new direction for the group after McGillis's offer, no one in Tekkadan could provide meaningful input with the exception of Merribit, who has always been peripheral to Orga's decision-making. Mika is a given, but Eugene and the rest also reaffirmed their confidence in Orga's leadership without really addressing the matter at hand. The exception is Takaki, who has decided he wants off Orga's wild ride. He makes explicit the fact that their continued quest for the promised place will lead to further sacrifices and says that for him, the risk of sacrificing the present outweighs the promise of a future utopia. Orga accepts this and also interprets this as Takaki resigning from Tekkadan. While Takaki spoke in part as if he was quitting rather than asking Orga to change direction, he still looks shocked and overwhelmed when Orga thanks him for his service. Though the scene is touching and a natural parting of ways with a character who has drifted away from the others, it also highlights the fact that if you're a member of Tekkadan, you are committed to Orga's vision of the promised place. Mika marks the finality of this break by stating that Takaki is no longer 'family', an omission that shocks Takaki. Though Akihiro softens the blow after the fact, the line has been clearly drawn. The bonds connecting Takaki to Tekkadan were severed the moment he rejected their shared goal. Mika himself is at least as important to perpetuating the promised place narrative as Orga. He has also become a symbol for its human cost, as shown when Orga unwrapped food for Mikazuki to eat. Even so, Mikazuki is relieved that Takaki has left, and looks to Orga for guidance about why he feels that way. Orga ducks the question and reaffirms that they'll find an answer for all their doubts when they reach the promised place. Mika reflects that the place is 'further than he thought'. Mika's relief at Takaki's departure is Orga's only hope of escape, since it means that even Mika has repressed doubts about their current course. The farm Mika is experimenting with on Mars is another vital sign that Mika can conceive of a future other than his childhood promise with Orga. But it's not clear that Orga himself wants to stop now that he's accepted Biscuit's death. Orga's tragedy is that the promised place doesn't exist. He could plausibly have claimed that by becoming a profitable and respected mercenary company after season one they'd accomplished enough, but he isn't satisfied and neither is Mika. People still pick fights with Tekkadan. People still betray and kill his people. Since Tekkadan isn't absolute, they haven't arrived yet. It's not clear to me that this dynamic could ever end. Even if Tekkadan therefore Orga becomes King of Mars, he will inevitably encounter new battles on a bigger stage. As Merribit points out, their relationship with Teiwaz would fundamentally. And that's to say nothing of the battles they'd fight with the earth powers if they truly sought Martian independence. And practical considerations aside, the promised place has to be a utopia that will justify all the sacrifices that preceded it. Since that can't be realised, Orga is obliged to continually push their arrival at paradise back into the future. Orga isn't entirely aware of this but what he desires is absolute power. His pitch for the others to accept the throne of Mars is that Tekkadan has been continuously abused by others and McGillis is offering them a chance to gain status and honour. Conveniently, it is also impressive enough that he can present it as the 'ultimate finish' and thus the promised place. However, Tekkadan has already become a member of Teiwaz and a notable military force without any reduction in the number of idiots picking fights with them and betraying them. Any organisation or country will be challenged by others unless they are invincible. Ironically enough, the setting of Iron Blooded Orphans was once dominated by the invincible organisation known as Gjallahorn. The old Gjallahorn ended a catastrophic war with unique weapons that gave them the power to unilaterally dictate terms to the other states and elevate themselves to global peacekeepers who monopolised all military technology. For a long time, I'm sure, no one would dare to challenge them. But as we all know, the Gjallahorn that has survived to the present has become a corrupt and morally bankrupt organisation riven by infighting and power struggles. Most of the plot of season one served to demonstrate that Gjallahorn's rule could now be overtly challenged by other forces, not least a bunch of scrappy kids in Mobile Suits. As of season two, Gjallahorn's monopoly on armed forces on earth has been explicitly broken, though the state armies are still too incompetent to be regarded as a serious threat. IBO is too smart a show to posit that an absolute force would be either just or eternal. So I'm not surprised when McGillis states that Tekkadan reminds him of Gjallahorn's legendary founder. Putting aside the incidental similarities such as the use of Gundam Frames and Alaya-Vijnana as weapons, I would guess that Orga's ambitions are comparable to the mindset Agnika Kaieru possessed when he founded an organisation like Gjallahorn. Gjallahorn was created to correct an unjust world riven by war, just as Tekkadan was founded so Orga and his comrades could fight back against the poverty, exploitation, and powerlessness that afflicted them. As Orga says, there are any number of other armed groups in the setting that McGillis could use as proxies. But McGillis regards the motivation and vitality Tekkadan demonstrate when they fight as a unique force that he can use to gain complete control of Gjallahorn. Tekkadan's distinct motivation in comparison to the rabble of mercenaries, child soldiers and pirates that constitutes the rest of the setting is their pursuit of the promised place, which engenders a fanaticism their enemies have frequently commented on with fear and awe. If we project Orga's trajectory to the extreme, a conflict between him and McGillis is inevitable because there can only be one king. McGillis may or may not realise this. But I don't rule out the notion that Orga and Mika will eventually come to a stop, either because they realise it isn't necessary to reach the promised place or because an uncaring universe will bring them crashing back to earth. IBO is an interesting show because it both admires and criticises the slightly twisted ambition that unifies its protagonists, and while I think it should logically be a tragedy season one more or less rewarded Tekkadan for continuing to pursue their dream despite the human cost. I will be interested to see if that dynamic holds in season two. One final note is that McGillis may give Tekkadan everything Orga wants but that won't necessarily end well for Tekkadan because Orga's ambitions are rapidly outstripping Tekkadan's ability to keep up. The entire Earth Branch arc was basically Tekkadan's second-stringers being promoted beyond their circle of competence and getting jerked around by a couple of adults. I can't imagine Tekkadan running a planet would go much better. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 20:33
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What's interesting to me is that this plot arc and this episode in particular have made it abundantly clear exactly how utterly brittle Tekkadan is, regardless of all the power, wealth, and military force they have accumulated. Without Orga's direct input and orders, Tekkadan basically ceases to function on every level. All it took to completely paralyze the Earth Branch and put them on effective autpilot was to cut off communication between the Earth Branch and Orga. In this episode, Orga asks the supposed inner circle of Tekkadan - his friends and confidants and seconds-in-command - what they think of McGillis's offer and the best they can muster is a bunch of "Um, uh, I don't get it but whatever you think is cool, Orga". Even Eugene, the deputy boss and most assertive/intelligent non-Orga commander figure in Tekkadan, is completely flabbergasted and at a loss by the machinations going on here. The only figure with the knowledge and intelligence to potentially plot a course for Tekkadan besides Orga is Merribit, and she is an auxiliary figure with no authority who is often simply ignored or overruled. In effect, Tekkadan is so top heavy that all it would take to completely derail the organization and reduce its members to a gaggle of ineffectual children once again is to incapacitate/kill Orga or even just temporarily remove him from the picture in a high stress situation. The mess in Arbrau is a direct result of the Rustal faction being aware of this, and it's doubtful that anyone else who has interacted with Tekkadan on a consistent basis doesn't realize it by this point too(McGillis, Naze, Teiwaz).
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Nov 21, 2016 22:02
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Lestaki posted:I feel like the focus on McGillis distracts from what's really important, which is Orga's reasons to accept his offer despite his doubts about the situation. Orga's motives are essentially that if his organisation grows big enough no one will be able to hurt his people and everyone will be able to live well. In order to accomplish that goal, he understands and accepts that he's going to get a lot of people killed, but he asserts to himself and to others that all these sacrifices will be redeemed by the happiness enjoyed when they triumph and reach the promised place. His relationship with Mika is ground zero for all this, but the dynamic holds true for everyone who is still a member of Tekkadan in less explicit terms. Everyone trusts Orga to lead them to the promised place. Yeah that's a cool reading but it requires you to completely misread Mika as a a character and the scene with him and Guts and takaki. The entire show has repeatedly told us Mika is bad at expressing himself and that Orga and Guts are two people who are genuinely close to him. Guts wasn't trying to blunt Mika being a jerk he's trying to better explain what Mika meant which was "Go live the life you want with your sister. She's your family and you don't need to ruin that by worrying over us". It's not shaming him foe leaving it's Mika trying to remove.any guilt Takaki might feel in the future. He's just going about it in the typical blunt mika manner. You have to weirdly assume Akihiro is lying or misunderstanding Mika's intent and nothing in the show has shown us that Akihiro doesn't understand his gains partner.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:08
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Darth Walrus posted:It means that one of their subsidiaries would have significantly more power than the main organisation does. That's never good news for a crime syndicate's stability, and would have pretty much everyone else in the organisation clamouring for their blood before they get sidelined. That guy in the yellow jacket we've seen at the meetings this season is probably going to make the first move - his fears have just been justified in the most spectacular way possible. I guess it depends on how much control Teiwaz really exerts over its subsidiaries. Having the deed to Mars doesn't instantly make Tekkadan stronger than Teiwaz since Tekkadan would be the only military power of consequence on there. Teiwaz can call Orga and say "here's the deal OR ELSE" and make it a credible threat for a while, though while writing this I just remembered part of the deal is Tekkadan would be "Mars Gjallhorn" and could presumably phone home to Earth for backup, and that would be a war that Teiwaz likely doesn't want. On the other hand, remember how the Godfather dealt with subordinates who made unauthorized deals. One bad ending for Tekkadan is Orga being executed by Teiwaz for the treachery, and Naze would likely be killed for sponsoring Tekkadan into the organization.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:28
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Kanos posted:What's interesting to me is that this plot arc and this episode in particular have made it abundantly clear exactly how utterly brittle Tekkadan is, regardless of all the power, wealth, and military force they have accumulated. Without Orga's direct input and orders, Tekkadan basically ceases to function on every level. All it took to completely paralyze the Earth Branch and put them on effective autpilot was to cut off communication between the Earth Branch and Orga. In this episode, Orga asks the supposed inner circle of Tekkadan - his friends and confidants and seconds-in-command - what they think of McGillis's offer and the best they can muster is a bunch of "Um, uh, I don't get it but whatever you think is cool, Orga". Even Eugene, the deputy boss and most assertive/intelligent non-Orga commander figure in Tekkadan, is completely flabbergasted and at a loss by the machinations going on here. The only figure with the knowledge and intelligence to potentially plot a course for Tekkadan besides Orga is Merribit, and she is an auxiliary figure with no authority who is often simply ignored or overruled. Absolutely. A consistent element is that the other characters forced into command roles invariably remark on how difficult it is to do what Orga does, especially with regard to accepting the death of your subordinates. The question is whether Eugene could step up if something happened to Orga. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah that's a cool reading but it requires you to completely misread Mika as a a character and the scene with him and Guts and takaki. The entire show has repeatedly told us Mika is bad at expressing himself and that Orga and Guts are two people who are genuinely close to him. Guts wasn't trying to blunt Mika being a jerk he's trying to better explain what Mika meant which was "Go live the life you want with your sister. She's your family and you don't need to ruin that by worrying over us". It's not shaming him foe leaving it's Mika trying to remove.any guilt Takaki might feel in the future. He's just going about it in the typical blunt mika manner. You have to weirdly assume Akihiro is lying or misunderstanding Mika's intent and nothing in the show has shown us that Akihiro doesn't understand his gains partner. I'm not sure they have to be mutually exclusive. Mika has a lot of regard for his friends and I do think that he meant well in his own way, so Akihiro isn't wrong about the fact Mika wants Takaki to live happily with his sister. But Mika also lives in a very black and white world and he's always been clear that Tekkadan is his family. Takaki is out of Tekkadan, which sets him free to live his own life without worrying about those weirdo mercenaries and also means he is no longer part of that family. Like I said, the scene where Takaki leaves is touching and is handled as such, but there's also a note of harshness, not least because it unfolds so quickly.
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Nov 21, 2016 22:50
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McGillis stands to gain nothing at tihs point from setting up tekkadan. If he's pushing for absolute control of Gjallarhorn he needs all the help he can muster.
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Nov 22, 2016 05:27
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Ka0 posted:McGillis stands to gain nothing at tihs point from setting up tekkadan. If he's pushing for absolute control of Gjallarhorn he needs all the help he can muster. "Look Earth, I have slain the fearsome Tekkadan! Praise me and make me the new head of the Seven Stars!"
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Nov 22, 2016 05:44
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I was pretty much thinking the opposite of what most people are saying. I don't think McGillis is planning to or will end up betraying Tekkadan. Instead, McGillis is going to end up going too far in some way, and Orga is going to have to betray McGillis. Somebody mentioned earlier that the "king of Mars" deal was very faustian and I totally agree with that. I feel it's going to become a sort of impure prize with some tragic or corrupting drawbacks. That seems more in line with how the themes and style of the show are progressing, at least imo.
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Nov 22, 2016 06:33
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Personally I kinda want to see it go Gungrave towards the end, with Mika having to dismantle Tekkadan for going Too Far. It almost certainly won't, but we all know drat well Tekkadan's going to lose big at some point this season.
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Nov 22, 2016 06:43
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Personally I kinda want to see it go Gungrave towards the end, with Mika having to dismantle Tekkadan for going Too Far. It almost certainly won't, but we all know drat well Tekkadan's going to lose big at some point this season. That's what tons of people were saying last season too. I really don't get the fascination some people have with tragic downfalls, or why they insist on viewing all media with the mindset that one is totally going to happen you guys. It has too, Neddy Seagoon posted:"Look Earth, I have slain the fearsome Tekkadan! Praise me and make me the new head of the Seven Stars!" McGillis loving over his own allies would just prove he's a giant dumbass. It certainly wouldn't keep Rustal from doing whatever he's going to do.
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Nov 22, 2016 08:21
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paragon1 posted:McGillis loving over his own allies would just prove he's a giant dumbass. It certainly wouldn't keep Rustal from doing whatever he's going to do. Well, y'know, it's not like McGillis hasn't shown a habit of doing exactly that already in S1.
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Nov 22, 2016 09:20
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paragon1 posted:That's what tons of people were saying last season too. I really don't get the fascination some people have with tragic downfalls, or why they insist on viewing all media with the mindset that one is totally going to happen you guys. It has too, Orga keeps recklessly betting everything and everyone he has on the next chance to win. Every winning streak has an end, and S1 very nearly went there if it hadn't pulled everyone surviving the fight with Ein at the eleventh hour. paragon1 posted:McGillis loving over his own allies would just prove he's a giant dumbass. It certainly wouldn't keep Rustal from doing whatever he's going to do. Why would you think he's going to backstab them before dealing with Rustal? Once Rustal goes, McGillis doesn't exactly have a need for a mercenary group capable for fending off global military forces.
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Nov 22, 2016 09:53
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Orga keeps recklessly betting everything and everyone he has on the next chance to win. Every winning streak has an end, and S1 very nearly went there if it hadn't pulled everyone surviving the fight with Ein at the eleventh hour. You were originally responding to someone saying McGillis has no reason to betray them "at this point". You know, this point, the one where Rustal is still a guy who is around. I don't think very many people are arguing for "McGillis will never betray Tekkadan at any point, EVER" for obvious reasons. Ignoring the tired rear end gambling metaphor for a moment, season one consisted of Orga making some of the only smart plays possible given the crazy situation they were in. Desperation and recklessness aren't the same thing. I'd say jumping in with both feet into McGillis's plotting is the first really, genuinely, truly reckless thing Orga has actually done considering the context. taichara posted:Well, y'know, it's not like McGillis hasn't shown a habit of doing exactly that already in S1. Technically he only betrayed subordinates, adopted family members, and childhood friends, not allies! 
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Nov 22, 2016 10:18
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Don't get me wrong though! I'm not saying Orga and Tekkadan in general haven't made bad choices. They let Space Hitler live after all.
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Nov 22, 2016 10:19
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paragon1 posted:Don't get me wrong though! I'm not saying Orga and Tekkadan in general haven't made bad choices. They let Space Hitler live after all. Who provided a useful point of contact with McGillis, who helped out in a big way up to this point. Killing Space Hitler: Surprisingly, not always the correct call!
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Nov 22, 2016 10:30
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Ka0 posted:McGillis stands to gain nothing at tihs point from setting up tekkadan. If he's pushing for absolute control of Gjallarhorn he needs all the help he can muster. McGillis wants control above all else. If he can find a way to take Tekkadan's power for his own, rather than having to work with them as relative equals, he'll do it. Remember, if he just wanted to reform Gjallarhorn, he could have just stuck with Gaelio.
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Nov 22, 2016 12:05
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paragon1 posted:Don't get me wrong though! I'm not saying Orga and Tekkadan in general haven't made bad choices. They let Space Hitler live after all. They left him bondaged and beat up to gallahorn. By all means, he would be dead in most cases.
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Nov 22, 2016 12:35
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Darth Walrus posted:Remember, if he just wanted to reform Gjallarhorn, he could have just stuck with Gaelio. I'm not sure that that this is a statement that naturally connects. McGillis's actions in S1 show pretty clearly that his vision of reforming Gjallarhorn includes straight up eliminating the Seven Stars families. No other conclusion makes any sense, because betraying and killing Gaelio and Carta would serve absolutely no other purpose besides to make his own goals more difficult and strip himself of powerful and influential allies who are loyal to him and share his views. Only in the framework "The Seven Stars must be destroyed in order to achieve meaningful reform in Gjallarhorn" does McGillis stabbing Carta and Gaelio in the back make sense, because he took the opportunity to knock them off while they were still vulnerable and unaware of his true intentions to save effort in the long run.
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Nov 22, 2016 16:02
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Kanos posted:I'm not sure that that this is a statement that naturally connects. McGillis's actions in S1 show pretty clearly that his vision of reforming Gjallarhorn includes straight up eliminating the Seven Stars families. No other conclusion makes any sense, because betraying and killing Gaelio and Carta would serve absolutely no other purpose besides to make his own goals more difficult and strip himself of powerful and influential allies who are loyal to him and share his views. Only in the framework "The Seven Stars must be destroyed in order to achieve meaningful reform in Gjallarhorn" does McGillis stabbing Carta and Gaelio in the back make sense, because he took the opportunity to knock them off while they were still vulnerable and unaware of his true intentions to save effort in the long run. This has been my interpretation. Gaelio only wanted to rebuilt/fix Gjallarhorn from within, while McGillis has made it pretty drat clear his intent is to burn it all down and rebuild it without the baggage of its existing aristocracy. That'd make Gaelio part of the problem and an obstacle, while Carta similarly was so fixated on her position and status that she'd never go for what McGillis thinks is necessary. As I remember he did express some regret over sacrificing his childhood friends for the purposes of that goal, but no real remorse for it. As far as he was concerned one way or another they would have to go along with the rest of the families.
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Nov 23, 2016 01:08
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Zebulon posted:This has been my interpretation. Gaelio only wanted to rebuilt/fix Gjallarhorn from within, while McGillis has made it pretty drat clear his intent is to burn it all down and rebuild it without the baggage of its existing aristocracy. That'd make Gaelio part of the problem and an obstacle, while Carta similarly was so fixated on her position and status that she'd never go for what McGillis thinks is necessary. As I remember he did express some regret over sacrificing his childhood friends for the purposes of that goal, but no real remorse for it. As far as he was concerned one way or another they would have to go along with the rest of the families. This does, however, continue to raise the question of why he wants to destroy or sideline the Seven Stars. It could be just anger at the corrupt system they've perpetrated, it could be an ancestral grudge for what they did to Agnika Kaeru and his family, or it could be simply because they're obstacles to his total rule of the solar system as its rightful king. In fact, it being a little of all three could be quite plausible.
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Nov 23, 2016 01:23
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Darth Walrus posted:This does, however, continue to raise the question of why he wants to destroy or sideline the Seven Stars. It could be just anger at the corrupt system they've perpetrated, it could be an ancestral grudge for what they did to Agnika Kaeru and his family, or it could be simply because they're obstacles to his total rule of the solar system as its rightful king. In fact, it being a little of all three could be quite plausible. All of these are plausible, as would be a belief that it's impossible to reconcile a reformed Gjallarhorn with one ruled over by an aristocracy. It's pretty easy to understand where he'd get the idea that maybe having a small group of hereditary noble families wielding disproportionate power over the solar system's strongest military power might not be conducive to fair and just rule, especially given his adoptive father's political maneuvering. There's also the pretty much guaranteed fact that precisely none of the Seven Stars would likely go along with a plan of reform that caused them to lose any significant amount of power, and you can't reform an organization without at least some level of cooperation from its leaders.
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Nov 23, 2016 01:51
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Kanos posted:All of these are plausible, as would be a belief that it's impossible to reconcile a reformed Gjallarhorn with one ruled over by an aristocracy. It's pretty easy to understand where he'd get the idea that maybe having a small group of hereditary noble families wielding disproportionate power over the solar system's strongest military power might not be conducive to fair and just rule, especially given his adoptive father's political maneuvering. It's not a matter of support, it's an issue of ingrained thought processes and principles. All of them have the same fundamental rear end-backwards ego and ideals that Carta exemplified, and the only way to fix Gjallarhorn without it returning to how it is now five minutes later is by clearing house from top to bottom. Even if they're all just kicked out they'll try something to undermine him from without or within, so they're going to have to all die.
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Nov 23, 2016 02:27
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Colour images of the Vidar's back are finally out, and... poo poo, that really is a third Ahab reactor. Gaelio really wasn't kidding about his new ride being special.  This also raises the possibility of entirely modern twin-reactor machines down the line, which would be quite something.
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Nov 23, 2016 12:01
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Darth Walrus posted:Colour images of the Vidar's back are finally out, and... poo poo, that really is a third Ahab reactor. Gaelio really wasn't kidding about his new ride being special. The stripe? The Grazes have two on the front and one on the back as well.
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Nov 23, 2016 12:08
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The stripe? The Grazes have two on the front and one on the back as well. Yes, exactly. That's what a modern Ahab reactor looks like - a big, glowing drum with two (optional, design-dependent) little ones up front. Calamity War reactors look roughly the same, but have rings of vents rather than glowing strips. Most frames have just a single big drum, but the Valkyrie frame has those two little extras at the front, and its modern derivatives, the Graze, Gerail, and Reginlaze, have followed suit. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 12:17
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So during the flashback scene, Rustal seemed to notice bruises/injuries on the back of child McGillis. Was that implying that McGillis got the AV-system surgery done while a child and has whiskers? Meaning he could eventually plug himself into the Bael if he gets his hands on it.
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Nov 23, 2016 12:48
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Automated Posting posted:So during the flashback scene, Rustal seemed to notice bruises/injuries on the back of child McGillis. Was that implying that McGillis got the AV-system surgery done while a child and has whiskers? Meaning he could eventually plug himself into the Bael if he gets his hands on it. I thought it was more a sign that he may have been abused.
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Nov 23, 2016 12:59
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Gorelab posted:I thought it was more a sign that he may have been abused. That's what I figured too. The AV whiskers are an interesting theory, though I can't help but think we'd have seen some sign of it with the Grimgerde if it was the case.
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Nov 23, 2016 13:34
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| # ? May 10, 2024 21:28 |
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Why is everyone keep talking about the final boss of the show and ignoring the obvious choice of Ein again?
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Nov 25, 2016 09:43
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