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iospace posted:https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/801080921181081600 she should've led chants of "eat the rich"
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Nov 22, 2016 17:05
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Serf posted:Or you could work towards them both at the same time? yeah duh, its the argument thats stupid
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Nov 22, 2016 17:05
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iospace posted:https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/801080921181081600 I don't think we've been talking about the platform being the bad part. It was having a messenger that couldn't be trusted to push the platform and who had so much baggage. If the party trusted the media to focus on issues instead of Clinton's scandals, that demonstrates exactly why we need new leadership.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:05
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MysteriousStranger posted:Economic justice and social justice aren't compatible. You advance social justice by selling off the working class and middle class as fast as possible to corporations and then throwing in with upper class social liberals. And any attempts at economic justice will drive off those upper class social liberals and corporate partners and dilute the minority vote. 
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Nov 22, 2016 17:06
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comingafteryouall posted:Maybe there's a better way to frame that discussion than saying "White women think white men are their saviors" The 'white men are their saviors' thing is a part of discussion on the issues because in tons of groups the answer to minorities bringing their issues up has been 'hey come on just support this white guy for elected office or whatever and he'll fix it' without understanding that he probably has never faced that issue before. Again the actual article goes into this as not a new thing at all. Yes, an internet article had a slightly inflammatory headline to get eyes, what a shock. If that's all the springboard you need to go into how 'identity politics' is bad it kinda feels like that was already an issue a lot of people had chambered and ready to go whenever anyway.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:07
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Serf posted:Or you could work towards them both at the same time? you want me to do TWO things?!
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Nov 22, 2016 17:07
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comingafteryouall posted:I don't think we've been talking about the platform being the bad part. people trusted Trump even less though, and he brought the baggage of 'literally being sued right now for fraud and child rape' and those were never touched.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:08
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look how fuckin hard is it to just say "i want justice"
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Nov 22, 2016 17:09
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iospace posted:https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/801080921181081600 This comes back to the discussion that was in this thread yesterday. It requires the construction of a more coherent and enticing narrative than the opposition. Clinton could not have been the standard bearer of a narrative for labor rights and unprivileged populations because her career and track record was far too checkered for legitimate reasons (let alone all of the false ones) to do so. The most compelling lies are always based on a foundation of truth.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:10
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Like most of the people I know who fight for social justice and would benefit most from it are not upper-class liberals. They are working class people all the way. It turns out that when there's no protections for you, holding a job can be tough, which further drives you into poverty and then reduces your economic freedom accordingly.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:10
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Tatum Girlparts posted:people trusted Trump even less though, and he brought the baggage of 'literally being sued right now for fraud and child rape' and those were never touched. Actually, more Americans thought Trump was trustworthy than Clinton so... http://time.com/4554576/donald-trump-trustworthy-hillary-clinton/
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Nov 22, 2016 17:10
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comingafteryouall posted:Actually, more Americans thought Trump was trustworthy than Clinton so... except when you get to specific issues  http://www.gallup.com/poll/195809/voters-prefer-trump-economy-clinton-issues.aspx it's almost as if collectively we distrust hillary by default, except when we think about her actually governing
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Nov 22, 2016 17:13
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Serf posted:Like most of the people I know who fight for social justice and would benefit most from it are not upper-class liberals. They are working class people all the way. It turns out that when there's no protections for you, holding a job can be tough, which further drives you into poverty and then reduces your economic freedom accordingly. so what youre telling me is people buying gold plated safety pins arent really fighting for social justice?????
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Nov 22, 2016 17:13
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MysteriousStranger posted:Economic justice and social justice aren't compatible. You advance social justice by selling off the working class and middle class as fast as possible to corporations and then throwing in with upper class social liberals. And any attempts at economic justice will drive off those upper class social liberals and corporate partners and dilute the minority vote. Yeah, we are done with this neoliberal lie. It has existed to only divide the people.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:22
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so i havent been following poo poo on purpose how hosed are we compared to last week
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Nov 22, 2016 17:24
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah, we are done with this neoliberal lie. It has existed to only divide the people.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:25
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lol that list of what people trusted Trump on more really should have set off some alarm bells in the Clinton camp. It's the economy, stupid.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:25
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comingafteryouall posted:lol that list of what people trusted Trump on more really should have set off some alarm bells in the Clinton camp. the biggest problem there is how do you argue it? He didn't have any plans, he just kept saying "I WILL BRING JOBS BECAUSE I AM A RICH BUSINESS BOY WHO DOES BUSINESS THINGS". Like, how do you fight a dude who apparently makes people trust him based on just pure prosperity gospel poo poo?
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Nov 22, 2016 17:30
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Re: lefty voices in media Where is the official cspam web series on the front page where we face melt with hot takes and increase site traffic by literal tens
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Nov 22, 2016 17:30
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Tatum Girlparts posted:the biggest problem there is how do you argue it? You run a candidate who doesn't have the public perception of being Nixon in drag and who can counter that prosperity gospel bullshit by actually harping on the fact that he's a terrible business man who's only out for himself, just like the CEO of the corporation that closed the factory you and your family worked at for generations.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:33
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eonwe posted:so i havent been following poo poo on purpose the same amount
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Nov 22, 2016 17:33
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eonwe posted:so i havent been following poo poo on purpose death is certain
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Nov 22, 2016 17:34
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Tatum Girlparts posted:the biggest problem there is how do you argue it? He did have plans though, like don't let any companies leave by threatening to tariff the poo poo out of them. could have talked about how automation has driven down manufacturing jobs. could have talked about the CEOs just like Trump are the ones who sent the jobs away to squeeze more profit. that second one wouldn't work for Clinton though, since she was less trustworthy on regulating wall street and was seen as cozying up to big business.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:37
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With the turnout chat a little earlier I started looking at MN results a bit (they have a pretty nifty website). Statewide results were: 2012 - Registered Voters 3084025 - Total President Votes - ~2936690 2016 - Registered Voters 3270734 - Total President Votes - ~2944467 My district results: 2012 - Registered Voters 374091 - Total Votes 351969 2016 - Registered Voters 421728 - Total Votes 361875 Despite a significant increase in registered voters in my district, total votes were basically equal to 2012. A 2.8% increase in votes, but the RV turnout will be down 8.3% because there are 12.7% more RVs. I'm seeing similarly increased RV numbers in the other urban house districts that didn't translate into an increase in votes. The rural districts RV totals stayed relatively flat. The dems barely held them as they all swung ~15% towards republicans, with two of them held by <1%. Looking at the recent midterm numbers is pretty soul crushing. The turnout in my district literally drops about 30 points the last few cycles. Hopefully the prospect of giving republicans the legislative trifecta if the governorship is lost is enough to motivate people in 2018? The last two races were relatively close. 
Souai has issued a correction as of 17:45 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 17:42
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ive already decided i kind of want to hope we don't get nuked and just hide in my Vive headset for 4 years ill be living in my on dystopian cyberpunk universe hiding in sims you guys do the work and get this poo poo fixed for me, namaste
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Nov 22, 2016 17:42
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eonwe posted:ive already decided i kind of want to hope we don't get nuked and just hide in my Vive headset for 4 years no dehumanize yourself and face to trumpshed these fash skulls aren't gonna bash themselves
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Nov 22, 2016 17:46
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Karl Sharks posted:except when you get to specific issues I dunno, getting beat by Trump on regulation of Wall Street, Employment/jobs, and 'the economy' is a massive failure by HRC.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:50
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah, we are done with this neoliberal lie. It has existed to only divide the people. like 90% of his posts are that same thing over and over even in the trump thread, all he talked about was democrats, it's annoying as gently caress
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Nov 22, 2016 17:52
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imo the reason trump won was less due to his own virtues and instead because of mass incompetance by the Hillary campaign, and that people are better off looking at what the she did wrong (everything) and critically examining trumps campaign for what he did right rather than assume trump is the wave of the future
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Nov 22, 2016 17:57
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a canny politician could look at, say, central PA (an area that Clinton got decimated in) and say to people: "You see how many people work in Sheetz nowadays? only 4 or 5 people at any time, and they're running a restaurant AND gas station. you ever notice how nice and easy it is to use the touch screens to order food? just touch the screen a couple of times, no body has to sit there and listen to your order. that same thing has happened to your manufacturing jobs. Trump can't bring them all back. That's why we're going to invest in your communities by making the CEOs who outsourced factories pay the community back, and create new jobs. Trump and his business buddies will object, because of course they do!" Let's imagine you're a rural white woman who is married to a guy that is struggling to find good work, and you know some of your friends are drug addicts, and you know people in jail. You like what you hear about women being equal to men, you know plenty of people that have raised tough daughters that work hard and have gone to college. But their daughters don't come back to your community because there aren't any jobs and it's, frankly, a depressing place. You aren't going to be won over to voting for equal pay cause nobody is getting paid in your town! Especially when Clinton wants to take away your guns, and your whole community takes days off of school for the beginning of hunting season. Trump went to those communities and promised jobs. The democrats don't even really try.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:59
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generally it seems a lot of obama voters stayed home, but so did a lot of romney voters trump was able to turn out enough "new" voters in enough states to get the win, while clinton's new voters were in states she didn't win or states she already won by a lot. for 2020, the focus should be on bringing back the voters who skipped home. but that's different than 2018 and the task of winning back the house, governorships, etc.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:06
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Tatum Girlparts posted:the biggest problem there is how do you argue it? I know you're just gonna ignore this or misinterpret it or forget it as quickly as possible because that's what you do, but here: You fight it by offering a better alternative. People trusted him because he's the only one who gave them something to latch on to and they didn't have another choice. It's a human trait that is generally seen as a positive thing, called "hope", and appealing to it was an important strategy for both Obama and Trump. You fight it by offering a more believable hope, or a more appealing hope, or a more likely hope, or hope to different people that have no hope and whose votes you can use to win. You can't fight it by trying to tear the hope down because it's frickin' hope, that's not how it works. If there's no alternative, you cling to what you have, no matter how lovely, because it's all you've got. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 18:10 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 18:07
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GlyphGryph posted:You argue it by offering a better alternative. People trusted him because he's the only one who gave them something to latch on to and they didn't have another choice. how often did the MSM cover trump rallies vs hillary rallies? or trump vs hillary policy? you say you can't rely on the media, but what the gently caress are you supposed to do then? buy up an hour ad time once a week and explain your hopeful policies hoping people actually listen to political ads in TYOOL 2016? tweet more at 3AM to people who probably already support you?
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Nov 22, 2016 18:10
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Karl Sharks posted:how often did the MSM cover trump rallies vs hillary rallies? or trump vs hillary policy? you say you can't rely on the media, but what the gently caress are you supposed to do then? buy up an hour ad time once a week and explain your hopeful policies hoping people actually listen to political ads in TYOOL 2016? tweet more at 3AM to people who probably already support you? What does this have to do with anything I said. I mean, apart from the fact that it's stupid in lots of ways, what does this have to do with anything.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:13
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GlyphGryph posted:What does this have to do with anything I said. I mean, apart from the fact that it's stupid in lots of ways, what does this have to do with anything. ...because if you look at hillary's policies and listen to her speak, she did what you said? so it's about getting more people to hear it?
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Nov 22, 2016 18:18
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Tatum Girlparts posted:did you actually read that article? It was a history piece basically, it was going into how 'feminism' as a blanket isn't actually always a 'sisterhood' and went into the very long history of minority feminist issues being put to the side by the white leadership of other feminist groups. It's not like she's inventing the concept of 'white feminism' being a status quo supporting group. I thought we were all for talking about how that's a problem? Why is it when we talk about the actual people supporting that stuff it's bad? Wow, you finally realized that white feminism, which Hillary is the platonic ideal of, is a problem. Welcome!
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Nov 22, 2016 18:20
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GlyphGryph posted:I know you're just gonna ignore this or misinterpret it or forget it as quickly as possible because that's what you do, but here: You're not wrong but there are still issues here in the current climate. For one, 'hope' isn't a universal thing. I mean, you can be a smug dick trying to explain the concept of 'things good' to me all you want but if you think Trump's brand of hope and Obama's are the same then what election did you watch? For another Karl Sharks posted:how often did the MSM cover trump rallies vs hillary rallies? or trump vs hillary policy? you say you can't rely on the media, but what the gently caress are you supposed to do then? buy up an hour ad time once a week and explain your hopeful policies hoping people actually listen to political ads in TYOOL 2016? tweet more at 3AM to people who probably already support you? this hits the other big issue. Trump, and guys like him, will always be ratings gold. The 'better alternative' is less so. What do you do when the media is covering every time Trump farts on stage, and completely ignoring, or even hilariously cutting away from, your rallies and poo poo in favor of his? Clinton DID have good alternatives to Trump's poo poo, how do we get them out when the other side just learned all they need to do is say 'BULLSHIT ALSO IMMIGRANTS ARE BAD' and the media will spend the next week saying 'woah, both sides sure exchanged heated words huh?' Moreover, though, what is going to be the tipping point to make these voters get on the side of the government when they've done nothing but reject it before? Like, they aren't cave people, they know what the plans are, but they constantly reject government backed economic plans because of something something what if I'm rich some day I don't want my taxes going to ~those people~. Trump's message was that the government is bad, 'entitlement reform' was a big part of it, abolishing huge hunks of taxes and government jobs and regulations was too, what are the democrats supposed to ape?
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Nov 22, 2016 18:21
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GlyphGryph posted:I know you're just gonna ignore this or misinterpret it or forget it as quickly as possible because that's what you do, but here: Good post here
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Nov 22, 2016 18:22
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Tatum Girlparts posted:For one, 'hope' isn't a universal thing. I mean, you can be a smug dick trying to explain the concept of 'things good' to me all you want but if you think Trump's brand of hope and Obama's are the same then what election did you watch? They both ran campaigns that were far more populist than Hillary's and their message won and her's didn't because the people want some populism in this century.
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Nov 22, 2016 18:24
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Fidel Castronaut posted:They both ran campaigns that were far more populist than Hillary's and their message won and her's didn't because the people want some populism in this century. trump supporters wanted authoritarianism above all else "i alone can fix it" is not a populist message
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Nov 22, 2016 18:25
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