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readingatwork posted:Computers aren't magic. The day where a factory is completely self-contained is still a long ways away and even then we'll still need people to service the robots, patch roofs and repair drywall. Manual labor may become less common but it's hardly going extinct. IIRC I remember Paul Kennedy writing about an experimental Japanese factory that was entirely robots back in 1984.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:18
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Gringostar posted:It will never not be hilarious that the stereotypical black welfare queen the right keeps saying exists was actually a white woman from chicago that was successfully prosecuted for defrauding those programs. Didn't she also murder people? She was a straight-up self-made organized crime figure that only got arrested on the welfare fraud.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:19
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Combed Thunderclap posted:He might not have even ever read Breitbart or Googled who Bannon is. As I recall he likes to sit down with the print media and annotate it. The Twitter app is probably his only little window to the Internet. Easy to forget but he's 70 years old and almost certainly technologically incompetent. I don't think he even personally uses that and has aides type up what he wants to say on Twitter.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:19
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ThePeavstenator posted:Milwaukee is actually a nice city if you aren't black. It's one of the (possibly the?) most heavily segregated cities in the US. We have a republican governor who slashed the state university system (which was really, really good) by 25% and used the money to put a new arena downtown. White people are having their lives improved a lot here and black people are getting hosed in the rear end for it. Your disaffected blue collar worker isn't really the brunt of the population here, it's a bunch of wealthy white people in suburbs that voted Trump. Counts are still going and from what I've seen it might even end up being less than that.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:20
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ThePeavstenator posted:Milwaukee is actually a nice city if you aren't black. It's one of the (possibly the?) most heavily segregated cities in the US. We have a republican governor who slashed the state university system (which was really, really good) by 25% and used the money to put a new arena downtown. White people are having their lives improved a lot here and black people are getting hosed in the rear end for it. Your disaffected blue collar worker isn't really the brunt of the population here, it's a bunch of wealthy white people in suburbs that voted Trump. This is a good point, too. Working class people in Wisconsin were less of a factor than the overtly awful white suburbanites of the type who work at SC Johnson and give Paul Ryan his perpetual job. MattD1zzl3 posted:People actually get this wrong: the slavers wanted to count black people as 1 person. Its the abolitionists that wanted them to count for nothing (to increase northern influence over the new country), and 3/5ths as a compromise. I mean if you had learned anything in school you would know that the South were "mean jerks who considered black people as less than a person," and also who wanted to have their cake and eat it too by having black slaves count as property but also as voters for the purposes of representation. The northern states fought this for how patently absurd it is.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:21
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Let's not forget that Trumps usual answer for hard questions is "I don't know" as in "I didn't know hate crimes were up". I mean, he probably isn't that dense and does follow the news so most likely he does know these things, but it is easier for him to feign ignorance. You are seeing it this time in his response to Bannon.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:21
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Young Freud posted:Didn't she also murder people? She was a straight-up self-made organized crime figure that only got arrested on the welfare fraud. Don't know about the murder part (but it's  chicago so maybe) but she was basically running a racketeering scheme.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:21
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Thalantos posted:As Christ died to make men holy/let us die to make men free Well we should.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:21
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Combed Thunderclap posted:He might not have even ever read Breitbart or Googled who Bannon is. As I recall he likes to sit down with the print media and annotate it. The Twitter app is probably his only little window to the Internet. Easy to forget but he's 70 years old and almost certainly technologically incompetent. Bannon isn't some random association it was the dudes campaign manager and close advisor, if he at no point even asked Bannon about the alt-right stuff then he is supremely incompetent.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:22
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Doctor Butts posted:This is kind of meaningless because anyone who would care about this sort of thing would have voted. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the people who didn't vote had no clue and therefore wasn't a factor in their decision. What makes you think that? Like, even if you haven't talked to anyone offline just the people on this forum who stayed home or cast a protest vote are saying they did so because Clinton was an untrustworthy corporate shill with a bad track record, whether or not they call out Bill specifically; the Democrats here are basically repeatedly asserting that people who didn't vote Clinton are either lying or fail to understand their own motivations, which actually are "I'm random and stupid and can never be persuaded of anything". A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 20:22
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Young Freud posted:Didn't she also murder people? She was a straight-up self-made organized crime figure that only got arrested on the welfare fraud. she was also white
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Nov 22, 2016 20:24
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socialsecurity posted:Bannon isn't some random association it was the dudes campaign manager and close advisor, if he at no point even asked Bannon about the alt-right stuff then he is supremely incompetent. If then statement is redundant
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Nov 22, 2016 20:26
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Lightning Knight posted:This is a good point, too. Working class people in Wisconsin were less of a factor than the overtly awful white suburbanites of the type who work at SC Johnson and give Paul Ryan his perpetual job. What are you basing that on? Like it'd be hard to turn out the 3 counties surrounding Milwaukee more than they already have in 2012 or the recall. Here is a map comparison of 2008 to 2016:  Boon fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 20:26
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Gringostar posted:Yes, democrats abandoned Wisconsin... (Russ Feingold was heavily supported and lost) i wasn't just talking about the rust belt, though yes wisconsin has been ignored by dems. obama couldn't be assed to keep his campaign promises when wisconsin unions needed it, and hillary didn't even bother to visit the state
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Nov 22, 2016 20:27
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Boon posted:What are you basing that on? I meant in relation to the point on voter suppression. The lovely FYGM suburbanites show up every election. This time, the Democratic, predominantly minority voters didn't show up. In Wisconsin in particular, I think this has more to do with voter suppression than a lack of enthusiasm or desire to vote. I have no clue on Michigan or PA tho. quote:How many of those counties are driving to Milwaukee to work at SC Johnson (as if working at SC Johnson was some sort of intrinsically awful thing) SC Johnson is a great place to work, and most of the people who do work there are very well off. That's kind of the point, really. We talk about "coastal elites" all drat day but you haven't lived until you've experienced the snobbery of Midwestern upper middle class yuppies. Good loving Lord.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:29
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Lightning Knight posted:This is a good point, too. Working class people in Wisconsin were less of a factor than the overtly awful white suburbanites of the type who work at SC Johnson and give Paul Ryan his perpetual job. Paul Ryan is the perfect republican for Wisconsin suburbanites. My parents love him because he's fiscally conservative, not outwardly socially conservative, and appears to be a human being with emotions. It's really hard to paint him as evil when he looks like your neighbor and sells "common-sense, small government" while his supporters are too blinded by privilege to be able to see that it actually says "gently caress the poor, gently caress minorities, and I'm not going to oppose anti-LGBT legislation". e: Still lol @ Hillary for not showing up once here to campaign after primary season.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:30
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ThePeavstenator posted:Paul Ryan is the perfect republican for Wisconsin suburbanites. My parents love him because he's fiscally conservative, not outwardly socially conservative, and appears to be a human being with emotions. It's really hard to paint him as evil when he looks like your neighbor and sells "common-sense, small government" while his supporters are too blinded by privilege to be able to see that it actually says "gently caress the poor, gently caress minorities, and I'm not going to oppose anti-LGBT legislation". Basically. He's young and conventionally attractive enough to appeal to younger voters too, the amount of young people I know who became enamored with Republican politics and conservatism through "wow Paul Ryan is so cool!" in 2012 is staggering. I detest Paul Ryan more than anyone else in government right now, he is actually The Worst. quote:
This is absolutely one of the weirdest strategic blunders, I agree. I remember they invited me to the Chelsea event and I didn't go because of work and I was wondering if we were ever going to get a Hillary event. I guess I know why now. 
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Nov 22, 2016 20:31
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Spaced God posted:
He might just be continously rotating so he is impossible to pin down, like Putin.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:33
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Condiv posted:i wasn't just talking about the rust belt, though yes wisconsin has been ignored by dems. obama couldn't be assed to keep his campaign promises when wisconsin unions needed it, and hillary didn't even bother to visit the state What promise? And yeah, Hillary not even visiting the state was dumb and one one of many reasons why she lost the state. It's not only reason any to only focus on it like you're doing is loving dumb.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:33
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Gringostar posted:What promise? http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/896/walk-picketers-when-collective-bargaining-rights-a/ also, i haven't focused on it, i've said she lost for multiple reasons (her messaging was bad and muddled, she screwed herself when it came to trustworthyness, she used an untested algorithm to make campaigning decisions, she over-relied on the polls, etc.) Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 20:34
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Boon posted:What are you basing that on? I haven't checked but I'm guessing that superimposing a map of DMVs over all the red sections of the northern counties (where a lot of college students are) would show the answer to this.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:35
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SeANMcBAY posted:I don't think he even personally uses that and has aides type up what he wants to say on Twitter. Someone did a deep dive on his twitter history during the campaign and found that several different devices contribute to it and seemed to correlate with the quality, composition level, and degree of looniness of each tweet. It may never have been proven but it looks very likely that he has personal posting privs even if he sometimes lets other people manage it. Hate to think what @POTUS will look like in a few months.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:35
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kaleedity posted:she was also white I will say that's questionable, since she was born in the South with it's hosed-up racial culture. She was official white and her dark skin was claimed to be the result of Native American ancestry, but "Cherokee Princess" is practically a code word down there for "a grandparent hosed a black person". She definitely benefited from white or passing privilege.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:35
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean if you had learned anything in school you would know that the South were "mean jerks who considered black people as less than a person," and also who wanted to have their cake and eat it too by having black slaves count as property but also as voters for the purposes of representation. The northern states fought this for how patently absurd it is. Yes i thought the opposite of this was being claimed. We of course are in 100% agreement.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:36
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Condiv posted:http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/896/walk-picketers-when-collective-bargaining-rights-a/ Ahh, so didn't literally walk with them but still addressed the issue locally. 
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Nov 22, 2016 20:36
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The thread spends a lot of time talking about re-organizing the democratic party, but I'm increasingly not even hopeful for a time when democrats retake the government. If we've learned anything from the past 8 years, it's that republicans will do everything they can to sabotage and obstruct while they're the opposition party, then get rewarded for it, and then put a wrecking ball through anything that democrats may have achieved after conservatives recapture the government. Republicans have apparently mastered the art of taking credit for any and all failures of government as proof that their ideology is correct and that further republican government is needed. Even if Trump is a total disaster, and dems retake the presidency in 2020, the republicans will simply return to their obstruction strategy. They'll successfully achieve their goals of crippling government during the periods when they have power, and then continue to hold democrats back from meaningfully improving the situation while they're in the role of the opposition party. Over the long term, they'll achieve their goals and successfully prevent/roll back progressive change. I don't see how we break out of this depressing cycle without some kind of massive systemic change that I just don't see coming.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:37
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Gringostar posted:Ahh, so didn't literally walk with them but still addressed the issue locally. in the optics of politics, showing up and walking with protesters would have meant far more to voters than a statement to a reporter.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:39
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UV_Catastrophe posted:The thread spends a lot of time talking about re-organizing the democratic party, but I'm increasingly not even hopeful for a time when democrats retake the government. Uh no, lets all fellate unions who have been traditionally anti-black and everything will magically be better. 
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Nov 22, 2016 20:40
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UV_Catastrophe posted:The thread spends a lot of time talking about re-organizing the democratic party, but I'm increasingly not even hopeful for a time when democrats retake the government. I think the internet really matters here. The map of millennial voters was painted blue for a reason. The internet of 2016 is much bigger than the internet of 2000-2008. If things go to poo poo I don't think republicans are going to be able to deflect blame as easily when the public is becoming more informed and there isn't the specter of 9/11 right behind us.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:40
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I basically agree with this assessment and I think it's one half of the problem with modern progressivism. The other being the notion that if only we explained how great progressivism is and showed them that progressivism can only be failed, everyone would flock to us! The idea that the electorate might reject us anyways, for any number of reasons, combined with the fact that even if we win we won't hold on to power for very long, makes me feel sad and unhopeful towards the future. The Republican Party, god help them for everything else, mastered the art of running on "government doesn't work" and then getting elected and proving it. quote:in the optics of politics, showing up and walking with protesters would have meant far more to voters than a statement to a reporter. The Secret Service would never have allowed it and it would've at best turned into a media circus photo shoot that he would've been criticized for on both sides for "fakeness." Think like the solidarity march the Euro leaders did, what, last year? Then they zoom the photo out and it's just them doing a shoot and there's no one marching with them.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:41
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DaveWoo posted:Interview with the New York Times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHN3IJ_j8A
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Nov 22, 2016 20:43
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Gringostar posted:Ahh, so didn't literally walk with them but still addressed the issue locally. it's much easier to issue a statement than to make a stand with protesters. maybe things would've turned out different if obama had kept a fairly easy campaign promise
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Nov 22, 2016 20:46
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Well at least he doesn't pretend to have basic human empathy. We know where he stands in that sense.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:47
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:What makes you think that? Like, even if you haven't talked to anyone offline just the people on this forum who stayed home or cast a protest vote are saying they did so because Clinton was an untrustworthy corporate shill with a bad track record I can see that. But no one is saying what Crowsbeak is saying about how she's a dirty third-wayist blabbity blah.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:47
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So what's the most likely outcome for Trump from his supporters when they realize that he didn't carry out any of his promises like: 1. build a wall 2. Throw Hillary in prison 3. Bring back the coal industry? Part of me looks at the states and worries that Trump and the GOP have created a monster and something bad might happen when that monster finds out it has been lied to.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:49
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Doctor Butts posted:I can see that. But no one is saying what Crowsbeak is saying about how she's a dirty third-wayist blabbity blah. Never said she was. But Bill certainly was.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:49
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Condiv posted:it's much easier to issue a statement than to make a stand with protesters. maybe things would've turned out different if obama had kept a fairly easy campaign promise Yes, I'm sure Scott "Koch sucker" Walker would have totally reversed course on that one if Obama got more involved in early 2011 after the democrats got absolutely smashed that November as a rebuke of Obama being elected. Like do you not know what context is before you type things?
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Nov 22, 2016 20:49
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haveblue posted:Someone did a deep dive on his twitter history during the campaign and found that several different devices contribute to it and seemed to correlate with the quality, composition level, and degree of looniness of each tweet. It may never have been proven but it looks very likely that he has personal posting privs even if he sometimes lets other people manage it. He'll probably let it get hacked and someone will just make it into an account that posts pictures of butts.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:51
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ThePeavstenator posted:I think the internet really matters here. The map of millennial voters was painted blue for a reason. The internet of 2016 is much bigger than the internet of 2000-2008. If things go to poo poo I don't think republicans are going to be able to deflect blame as easily when the public is becoming more informed and there isn't the specter of 9/11 right behind us. Trump fed his entire misinformation campaign through the internet, though. Once in awhile it would leak onto national media. I'm glad Twitter is banning alt-right accounts en-force, but this should have happened sooner.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:52
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Madkal posted:So what's the most likely outcome for Trump from his supporters when they realize that he didn't carry out any of his promises like: Best case scenario is that a Democratic sweep happens in 2018-2020 and we start back on the "why isn't [Democratic president] fixing everything with their magic wand, time to stay home in 2024-8" problem as progressives rebel against the realities of incremental change in governmental organizations. Worst case is several terrorist attacks on the level of OKC and some real, real nasty poo poo going forward if you aren't a straight white dude living in an upscale area.
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Nov 22, 2016 20:53
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