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Adiabatic posted:See that's a passionate position you have and also exactly what I'm talking about. Your implications are that those that voted for Trump (half the voting public) are like those other kids, and "they should change". What you are failing to judge and characterize are the actions that led those other kids to do that. They probably have poo poo lives due to economic downturns and see the somali kids as being "special" because all the democrats feel sorry for them and want their lives bettered. The democrats also tell them that they're racists and bigots and whatnot so of course they act like monsters when you treat them like monsters. Adiabatic posted:What you are failing to judge and characterize are the actions that led those other kids to do that. They probably have poo poo lives due to economic downturns and see the somali kids as being "special" because all the democrats feel sorry for them and want their lives bettered. I'm obviously not a gifted debater but I hope I'm getting my point across which is "all sides need to really try to see from the other sides."
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Nov 22, 2016 21:49
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scuz posted:I'm obviously not a gifted debater but I hope I'm getting my point across which is "all sides need to really try to see from the other sides." This. Let's not pretend that many Trump supporters thought about this rationally, we all saw the rallies. Sure, there are plenty of Trump supporters who hoped Trump was just going to bring back jobs, but then sat in the same crowd as Trump egged on prosecuting another Presidential candidate, encouraged supporters to use violence against critics, and loudly called for stomping on the First Amendment. Between this and the fact that Bannon continues to serve on his future Cabinet, we can't pretend that there isn't some really stinky poo poo planned for the White House, and that he is not helping anything by promoting people with strong ties to the White Supremacist community.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:56
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scuz posted:There is a distinct lack of empathy and vast quantities of stubbornness on both sides, I completely agree. Having said that, let's unpack a thing: Absolutely agreed! The methods of education is the only thing we disagree on I think. I'm of the idea that making people feel good about themselves is the first step towards changing their minds. "You're racist" doesn't do much but double them down against you. "Your passion for stuff is great but have you ever thought about this side" is a much better way. CommieGIR posted:If only some strongman like I personally dislike Trump and I voted for Clinton. I'm not saying Trump winning was good. I'm attempting to make concrete what I saw as an error in my ways of going about what we both want, and am trying now to explain that militant liberalism is not the way to actually achieve liberalism. Shouting the effect of "Vote for Hillary or you're racist" brought a lot of poor white folk out of the woodwork to stand against her.
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Nov 22, 2016 21:58
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Adiabatic posted:I personally dislike Trump and I voted for Clinton. I'm not saying Trump winning was good. I'm attempting to make concrete what I saw as an error in my ways of going about what we both want, and am trying now to explain that militant liberalism is not the way to actually achieve liberalism.  I wasn't trying to imply you voted for Trump.At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The GOP spent 8 years poisoning the well that most voters drink from for information on which party supports them, the Democrats could promise gold chariots pulled by slaves and the GOP would probably still pull the same voters they did with Trump, because they've been told that they are losing Rights and Freedoms and buying into conspiracy theories.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:00
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That's been going on since at least 1980, actually. Throw in the tag-team bonus of demonizing teachers, and defunding public education successfully, and welp.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:04
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CommieGIR posted:
Naw you're good, man. I'm just trying to drive the point that I agree with the democrats and you on most of the social issues, but the methods by which we handle discourse have made us sabotage ourselves by spreading our own "hate of hatred" that alienates the people we should be trying to befriend to our causes. Here's a great analogy emphasizing what I'm talking about : Moon Atari posted:Using a more ridiculous example, the fat acceptance movement inspired a dedicated fat hate movement in response to their lovely behaviour, far more militant about shaming fat people than anyone had been before. The same force has applied to more serious issues as well.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:06
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I've been told in no uncertain terms that I MUST give feedback about my manager for her year end review.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:07
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My current echo chamber (read: Facebook feed) is full of people saying that voting for Trump is inexcusable because such a vote de facto advocated for racism and xenophobia and empowered neo-nazis to crawl out from under their rocks and hold meetings in DC. Adiabatic posted:Absolutely agreed!  There are ways to get people to learn, and starting off with an accusation is, like, Doing It Wrong 101.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:12
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Joined DriveTribe. Anyone else on there? Is there a way you can have a name other than your real one, or change your profile picture to be something other than your FB one? Because I'm very underwhelmed about the former feature, and actively dislike the latter.1500quidporsche posted:I've been told in no uncertain terms that I MUST give feedback about my manager for her year end review.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:20
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scuz posted:My current echo chamber (read: Facebook feed) is full of people saying that voting for Trump is inexcusable because such a vote de facto advocated for racism and xenophobia and empowered neo-nazis to crawl out from under their rocks and hold meetings in DC. Yeah same here. scuz posted:Oh, don't get me wrong, I think our education methods are the same. If I were trying to educate a racist on why they're wrong (let's not kid ourselves that racism is in some way good) my tone and vocabulary would be completely rearranged. My parents were both educators and so is my girlfriend and most of my friends are working somehow in education (even me!) so my internet persona, compared to real-life, is very much unfiltered and reactionary Word. Glad we had this discussion then cause I was definitely Doing It Wrong 101 with the rest.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:20
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I can't remember who recommended cowboy bebop but it's quite entertaining.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:33
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Fascists are scum.
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Nov 22, 2016 22:43
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InitialDave posted:Can you just put "Do not give someone a gun unless you are certain which way they will point it"? I'm supposed to email them in to my department director through my email that my manager has access to in this completely anonymous process. "Everything is great and just peachy "
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Nov 22, 2016 22:51
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cakesmith handyman posted:I can't remember who recommended cowboy bebop but it's quite entertaining. 1500quidporsche posted:I'm supposed to email them in to my department director through my email that my manager has access to in this completely anonymous process. No. Yours Respectfully, 1500quidporsche"
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Nov 22, 2016 22:53
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cakesmith handyman posted:I can't remember who recommended cowboy bebop but it's quite entertaining. Wasn't me but glad you're enjoying it. I'm part way through showing it to my fiancé
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Nov 22, 2016 22:55
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SCA Enthusiast posted:Fascists are scum. Now now, if you're really nice to them and make a good faith effort to see their side and educate them then they'll come right around to your side of the iss- 
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Nov 22, 2016 22:58
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Yes, it was definitely Clinton voters saying "Hey, that was a pretty racist thing you just said" to sensitive undecided economic-issue voters yelling about building a wall to keep mexican rape monsters out that cost her the election.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:00
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So what's the story with literally a fish? There was a big hullabaloo about his visit to the US and big plans with the van. Then he got here, all of a sudden the van plans were scrapped, then he fell out of the forum entirely, when he used to post in an almost viggen-like fashion. Was there some kind of drama? Sure looks like some kind of drama.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:18
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zundfolge posted:Now now, if you're really nice to them and make a good faith effort to see their side and educate them then they'll come right around to your side of the iss- Should we just kill them then? I mean what's the end-game here? Ether Frenzy posted:Yes, it was definitely Clinton voters saying "Hey, that was a pretty racist thing you just said" to sensitive undecided economic-issue voters yelling about building a wall to keep mexican rape monsters out that cost her the election. You're lambasting the weirdo fringe people of the right that spout weird ideas about their fear of immigration, while simultaneously downplaying the weirdo fringe people of the left that spout weird ideas about their fear of racists.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:19
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e:nm
Adiabatic fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 23:24
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Adiabatic posted:e:nm
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Nov 22, 2016 23:27
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Adiabatic posted:Should we just kill them then? I mean what's the end-game here? Write them off as a lost cause? I mean, when you're dealing with someone who literally believes non-whites are subhuman I seriously doubt asking them to try to see things from the point of view of people they think at best were put on this planet to serve whites and at worst need to be eradicated from the face of the planet you're not going to get much traction.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:29
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InitialDave posted:Hey, all I brought you was beer. <3 Geoj posted:Write them off as a lost cause? We did just that in this election though.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:33
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Adiabatic posted:You're lambasting the weirdo fringe people of the right that spout weird ideas about their fear of immigration, while simultaneously downplaying the weirdo fringe people of the left that spout weird ideas about their fear of racists. As it is with most things, the extremes of both sides are crazy. That doesn't mean that you have to identify with either one, you can stand in the middle and keep your sanity. But that just surrounds you with the crazies that must be identified as part of a group. There's a latent third party of thinking, understanding people that is crying out to be formed.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:34
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Adiabatic posted:Should we just kill them then? I mean what's the end-game here? You mean the nominee who was elected? I'm not sure he qualifies as weirdo fringe at this point.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:38
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I stayed 45 minutes late at work because some jerk stole some books. He wanted to check 5 books out but he owed $30 in fines for two unpaid ID cards. Once you hit $10 you can check anything out. I told him he was free to read the books here, and if he wanted he could bring then back to the desk and we would hold them here if he needed then again. He said OK and walked to our upper lobby but towards the tables so I stopped watching. No more than 5 minutes later someone came to the desk and told us someone without about 5 books waited for someone to come in the entrance and left when the door was open. (Exit has alarm) So since I tried being nice to the kid it made me want to find him even more. I didn't know his name but I knew he got an ID in Sept and Oct, I went though our records and came across two people with unpaid IDs for those months. Called him up: "Hello?" "Hi, is this Xxxxx?" "Yeah" "Hi this is the Xxxxx library. Did you leave with something of ours today?" "No, what?" "We have you on camera, if you bring them back now I won't call campus police" "Ok I'm coming" So he did. I left and my coworker told me he brought a friend over to check them out for him 10 minutes later. But she told him what happened and what the fine would be if he didn't return them ($525) and suddenly the friend didn't want to do it anymore. That's my detective story. Boring I'm sure but hey I work in a goddamn library.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:43
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InitialDave posted:Hey, all I brought you was beer. Didn't you also bring candy? Cuz I got candy 
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Nov 22, 2016 23:48
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alternate.eago posted:Didn't you also bring candy?
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Nov 22, 2016 23:50
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I think Dave was the first internet dude to meet my wife. He had just moved in. Ah, memories.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:51
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Adiabatic posted:
Those weird fringe people run your govt now and are putting those same weird fringe people in positions of power. They are literally goosestepping and throwing hail Trump like it's 1933 AND going on about registering people. And to be honest, it aint a fringe group deathly scared of goosesteppers. It's not exactly a fringe idea that racism and Nazis are bad and if you read history, 1933 does seem to be telling us that maybe this is a good time to say "First the came for the Muslims and I said NOT THIS TIME MOTHERFUCKER" Sure, Trump voters by the large voted for what I think arent the worst reasons, economiclly they are hosed and want to send a message (even if Trump is the exact kind who hosed them the message needed to be sent they feel). The issue here is the lunatics Trump's vitriol has emboldened. Now Ma and Pa Coalminer? Yeah sure, lets understand why they voted that way and there are a LOT of them. Daniel Goosestepper however? NO. Were not going to have a conversation about his poo poo racism and Neo-Nazi bullshit. Now there's not many of them but those lot havve gained or a re gaining power and can inflict a whoooooole lot of damage if it isnt made clear their views and what they want to do are just not on. And to be honest, punching Nazis is a loving good thing. Or just belt them int he face with a shovel. Some people cant be reasoned with and white natioanlists are right up there in needing to be belted with a cluebat.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:02
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Those weird fringe people run your govt now and are putting those same weird fringe people in positions of power. They are literally goosestepping and throwing hail Trump like it's 1933 AND going on about registering people. Always use use a shovel, saves time looking for it when you get around to digging the grave.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:14
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Those weird fringe people run your govt now and are putting those same weird fringe people in positions of power. They are literally goosestepping and throwing hail Trump like it's 1933 AND going on about registering people. Okay. I understand your anger, and agree with your views. However, I'm personally more for crossing lines to attempt to bring people back together than I am for widening chasms.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:14
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InitialDave posted:I like giving Americans some British chocolate. Friends don't let friends eat Hersheys. I'm not even British and I like giving people British chocolate. Everyone thinks I'm talking about some kinda weird sex move when I offer them a double decker though.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:19
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Shrugs Not Drugs posted:Everyone thinks I'm talking about some kinda weird sex move when I offer them a double decker though. 
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Nov 23, 2016 00:28
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Adiabatic posted:We did just that in this election though. Yeah, but we didn't lose because of a failure to reach out to racist shitheels and attempt understand why they feel the way they do. Don't forget that Trump won with less votes than both Romney and McCain lost by in their respective elections. I feel the majority of the reason was depressed turnout owing to a pair of bad candidates and a lot of people assuming the polls saying Trump had around 1% chance of winning were correct and sat out the election, thinking it was in the bag - on top of a number of other smaller reasons (anti-establishment populism, failure of the neoliberal wing of the party to motivate the traditional party base, Hillary being reviled enough by conservatives to make literally anyone else an attractive candidate and our antiquated method of electing presidents that largely benefits rural voters, to name a few.) Geoj fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 00:30
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Adiabatic posted:Okay. I understand your anger, and agree with your views. However, I'm personally more for crossing lines to attempt to bring people back together than I am for widening chasms. The problem is that by the time they're goose stepping along they're at the point where crossing lines just means they get an easier shot at trying to take you out. They aren't interested in a reconciliation, they want to destroy the other side whether it's jews, gays or the people who sympathise with them. They believe that those who they have chosen to hate are subhuman, and that those who support them are traitors. You can only end a war with diplomacy if both sides are willing to engage,and you can only break the back of hatred if the people committed to it are willing to accept the same truths you do. You do it by knocking them down, and teaching their children that their parents are wrong, not by handwaving it away. The thing to realise is that not everyone in any movement is at the extreme and you can work with the ones that aren't. The ones that are though don't change unless you make them change, either you beat them down (metaphorically or literally) or you lock them away and give them no other choice but too change and prove it. Otherwise the best you can hope is that they hide it, and that means they have the opportunity to perpetuate it in their children and reinforce it in each other. You don't negotiate with an illness, you treat it.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:35
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Geoj posted:Yeah, but we didn't lose because of a failure to reach out to racist shitheels and attempt understand why they feel the way they do. Understood. That's a really good answer, and you are correct that this definitely wasn't the major reason for the loss. I do believe that villifying your opponents just creates more opponents, as relayed with the fat acceptance analogy. Do you agree?
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Nov 23, 2016 00:35
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Adiabatic posted:Okay. I understand your anger, and agree with your views. However, I'm personally more for crossing lines to attempt to bring people back together than I am for widening chasms. So...do I wear my nazi punks gently caress off armband now or not I'm confused 
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Nov 23, 2016 00:39
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Hersheys tastes like sick
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Nov 23, 2016 00:39
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bend posted:The problem is that by the time they're goose stepping along they're at the point where crossing lines just means they get an easier shot at trying to take you out. They aren't interested in a reconciliation, they want to destroy the other side whether it's jews, gays or the people who sympathise with them. They believe that those who they have chosen to hate are subhuman, and that those who support them are traitors. You can only end a war with diplomacy if both sides are willing to engage,and you can only break the back of hatred if the people committed to it are willing to accept the same truths you do. You do it by knocking them down, and teaching their children that their parents are wrong, not by handwaving it away. See maybe it's just because most of my friends and family voted for Trump and I don't see that in them, but I think a vast majority of them are willing to engage given a good reason to. Currently what I get from a lot of facebook and a lot of my more liberal friends are ultimatums of the form "believe this way or you're branded as a nazi/bigot/etc." I don't believe 100% of the Democratic party's rhetoric and feel that they're off-base with some issues, but I fear speaking up about them because I'll be branded as a redneck yokel from Virginia that wants police to shoot black people. With more and more ridiculous poo poo coming out of the weirdo fringe nationalist right comes more and more hatred from the left. It's like a positive feedback loop destined to diverge and I'm very concerned where that's headed.
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Nov 23, 2016 00:43
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