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Dissidia 012 has both games on it right? It looks like a lot of fun and I think I remember hearing that it unlocks the first one after you beat the campaign. Also, I'm nearing the end of disc 3 in VIII and I still really love it. Yea the plot goes a bit off the rails but I still like the romantic plot and I'm really enjoying the battle system. Kinda wish I had gotten Tonnberry before and I feel like Bahamut is gonna be a pain. Going to see if I can get doom train next. I'm glad in a way that it's not as popular now as some of the others as it's been fairly easy to avoid spoilers.
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Nov 23, 2016 16:54
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NikkolasKing posted:They killed Corneo and in the process saved Yuffie's and Elena's lives for no real reason other than they wanted to. I think an unprompted and unquestionably good act deserves consideration. ... Dude, did you forget Elena's a Turk? The Pirate Captain posted:This is hilarious. Which game is this from? Dragon Quest 8.
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Nov 23, 2016 16:55
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NikkolasKing posted:They're not heroes and I never claimed they were. But they also aren't really maliciously evil monsters. They are the only part of Shinra with any noticeable conscience apart from Reeve. They literally murdered a town of innocent people. 
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Nov 23, 2016 16:56
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SylvainMustach posted:Dissidia 012 has both games on it right? It looks like a lot of fun and I think I remember hearing that it unlocks the first one after you beat the campaign. Yeah, it does. It's not the exact same, but the difference is for the better since it basically just ports it over to 012's world map. There's no real reason to buy the original. Do play 012 though, it's good fun. 
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Nov 23, 2016 16:58
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Die Sexmonster! posted:... Dude, did you forget Elena's a Turk? Loyalty is still a virtue. True psychopaths like the rest of Shinra would have left her to rot. ImpAtom posted:They literally murdered a town of innocent people. Yes, that doesn't mean they have no conscience. The number of characters in fiction who can laugh at the Turks 'death toll is very high yet many of them are sympathetic. Keeping it just in the FF series, there are characters like Gabranth and Caius who want to kill more people than the Turks ever dreamed of yet their motivation is clear and we are supposed to understand why they are doing it. It isn't because they are remorseless psychos but because they're so emotionally attached and driven that it makes them ignore the aforementioned conscience. Again, the Turks are not heroes. They're also not pure evil monsters.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:05
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ImpAtom posted:They literally murdered a town of innocent people. They did. No doubt about it. But why did they do it? I get that that's a bit of an unanswerable question because FFVII doesn't go into the why these regular clock-punching joes (who, remember, blow off the all-important directive from the head office to go on a manhunt for your party because they're officially on vacation) do these things. All we have is what's on the page, and what's on the page is a particular take on the old trope of what it means to do awful things as... not completely irredeemable people? Again, there's no question that the Turks get into some seriously bad poo poo when they're on the clock and they don't show any compunctions about the undertaking of their duties. But their characterization makes it very clear that what they do, they do because it's their job. When they're not on the boss man's dime, they blow off steam by having a few drinks, they talk about chicks, the game does make an effort to portray them as somewhat regular people. They're not meant to be completely unsympathetic. Whether the game pulls it off is another question but if doing something unambiguously bad means you're all bad, then I have a question: what's your take on Bodie? Not going to defend "any noticeable conscience", though, I think that's a wrong reading of the characters.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Again, the Turks are not heroes. They're also not pure evil monsters. They kind of are. They murder people for money and show like no remorse at all.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:14
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I fear there might be two different arguments going on simultaneously here. Just to clarify, my position is that the Turks are amoral, remorseless killers that are nonetheless relatable and endearing. To a small extent, but still.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:16
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:They did. No doubt about it. But why did they do it? Because it was their job. Nothing personal. The Turks are meant to be our first real glimpse at the casual inhumanity and brutality of Shinra's operations - they crush an entire city block and then knock off for drinks, while the boardroom discusses profit margins. That's pretty persistent throughout the whole game, since while they do have a dim sense of honor and quid pro quo, none of them besides maybe Elena show anything resembling a conscience. Even Tseng's lingering affection for Aerith is more because of his extended surveillance of her than anything, and Aerith openly calls it out their relationship as warped and pathetic when she's first discussing it to Cloud. The thing is that, as the game goes on, Shinra's cruelty starts to get trumped by the much bigger threat of Sephiroth/Jenova/Hojo, which is why the company ends with Rufus getting his rear end blown up and the Turks (assuming you completed Wutai) quietly exiting stage right if given the chance. They're still bad people, just pragmatic enough to know that they've got no stake left in throwing their weight around. Scarlet and Heidegger are a similar type of evil, but they're also too loving stupid to know when to call it quits, and so they get casually snuffed out by the party on their way to Hojo.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:18
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:if doing something unambiguously bad means you're all bad, I... really don't understand the argument here. They literally murdered an entire slum full of people entirely because it is their job. It isn't like they go back and show remorse later for it or anything. They just are mercenaries who bug out when they're not getting paid anymore. (Well, Elena takes it more seriously than Reno and Rude, but is also explicitly the rookie who treats it as something besides A Job.)
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Nov 23, 2016 17:18
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the nazis were just doing their jobs, it was only hitler that was evil
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Nov 23, 2016 17:24
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ImpAtom posted:I always felt bad for the Avalanche members. They get pretty unceremoniously murdered by the Turks and barely anyone remembers it and the Turks end up as wacky semi-antagonists while Biggs, Wedge and Jesse rot in the remains of the entire town Reno murdered. Sephiroth/Jenova kills ONE Aerith and nobody ever forgets it. No but its fine though because On the Way to a Smile Aerith chats up their souls in the Lifestream and helps them find closure. Macdeo Lurjtux posted:"Kurito-san, I know I can't come but can you please think of me during penetration?" I laughed way too hard at this, thank you.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:26
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:Yeah! It's like I always say, Jules Winnfield and Vincent Vega were poo poo. They're contract killers! They kill people in cold blood! They break the law without a care! Can't relate to those fucks. I must have missed the part where they destroy an entire city. The Wolf must have done a pretty good job cleaning that one up.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:41
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ImpAtom posted:I... really don't understand the argument here. They literally murdered an entire slum full of people entirely because it is their job. It isn't like they go back and show remorse later for it or anything. They just are mercenaries who bug out when they're not getting paid anymore. (Well, Elena takes it more seriously than Reno and Rude, but is also explicitly the rookie who treats it as something besides A Job.) I'll use the example of Bodie from The Wire since you didn't bite. Put simply, Bodie killed Wallace. That's as close to as unforgiveable an act as you can get. He's not shown to be remorseful about it, either, but drat if I didn't feel sad when he died. As much as one can when watching a TV show, but still. Oxxidation I think touched on what my basic argument is. What does it mean when a regular person commits an unspeakable crime? For me, and I guess this is a value judgment, "all bad" means you enjoy causing suffering. You're either cruel, or sadistic, or something like that. It has to go beyond necessity. With the Turks, they're doing their job. How they came to be into this line of work, why they accept an assignment like bringing down a section of the city without blinking, all of this we can only guess at and it doesn't speak too highly of their moral fiber, I agree. The game still goes to pretty big lengths to humanize them to a degree with the Wutai trip, though. Fister Roboto posted:I must have missed the part in Pulp Fiction where they destroy an entire city. The Wolf must have done a pretty good job cleaning that one up. You'd be surprised what a few quilts and some neon lights can do when something looks like poo poo to start with.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:41
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Oxxidation posted:Because it was their job. Nothing personal. I think it's the opposite.Scarlet and Heidegger are great contrasts with the Turks. They have no loyalty and are simply power-hungry assholes. They don't even like each other and would stab each other in the back if they could. They are absolutely evil to Saturday morning cartoon levels. The Turks of course are loyal, somewhat to the company but mostly to each other. They aren't smug narcissists who constantly dismiss what the heroes do and say "we'll win anyway!" (Heidegger/Scarlet's approach) They seem to respect Avalanche and Avalanche in turn maybe doesn't respect them but they're appreciative of the Turks' efforts. The Turks come off as "real" people while the Shinra Execs save Reeve all come off as varying degrees of supervillain with no capacity for empathy or humanity. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 17:45
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:. What does it mean when a regular person commits an unspeakable crime? For me, and I guess this is a value judgment, "all bad" means you enjoy causing suffering. You seem to be arguing that being able to relate to someone makes them not a horrible monster and I don't agree. If anything it makes them scarier because they could be normal people but are so insanely amoral that they can murder an entire city of people and then go out drinking. That's a depressing more realistic kind of evil than "Hahaha, i want to kill all the babies for fun."
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Nov 23, 2016 17:45
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I don't think there's much point in speculating why they gave Sector 7 the works.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:46
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ImpAtom posted:You seem to be arguing that being able to relate to someone makes them not a horrible monster and I don't agree. If anything it makes them scarier because they could be normal people but are so insanely amoral that they can murder an entire city of people and then go out drinking. That's a depressing more realistic kind of evil than "Hahaha, i want to kill all the babies for fun." That does seem to be the crux of the disagreement then. I can imagine the Turks not harming a fly if they were, say, electricians, rather than being serial killers on the side. e: now I really want your take on Bodie. Cape Cod Crab Chip fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 17:46
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ImpAtom posted:They kind of are. They murder people for money and show like no remorse at all. So like Cloud blowing up a reactor that a bunch of people are working at for payment from Avalanche, and his only concern is how much he can get for blowing up the next reactor.
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Nov 23, 2016 17:52
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:That does seem to be the crux of the disagreement then. I can imagine the Turks not harming a fly if they were, say, electricians, rather than being serial killers on the side. I really don't get what you want me to say? A character being funny, likable, sympathetic or understandable doesn't mean they're not a horrible monster. You appear to be of the mindset that as long as you like someone that means they're not awful and I can't agree with that. I love, for example, Breaking Bad because Walter White is a fleshed out, interesting, understandable character with surprising charisma for a constant fuckup. He's also a horrifyingly bad person. A character can be horrifying and evil and still be interesting or even likable. It doesn't mean they're not a terrible person. Saint Freak posted:So like Cloud blowing up a reactor that a bunch of people are working at for payment from Avalanche, and his only concern is how much he can get for blowing up the next reactor. Yep. Cloud is a real shithead early on and the game makes a point about that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 17:52
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ImpAtom posted:I really don't get what you want me to say? I don't want you to say anything. You don't need to placate me. We disagree on the Turks and that's okay! e: actually, you bring up Walter White and that's a very good comparison I feel. Again, Oxxidation brought up part of the point that I wanted to make, that the Turks seem to be more of a byproduct of the hyper-amplified greed of the FFVII world that takes what could be a normal working joe and makes them into occupational framers by way of mass murder. Walter White, meanwhile, is also an intensely interesting character but since we have a better window into his motivations, we know what he's about and what he does, he does it because it's deeply personal. No one wanted him to cook and distribute meth. Not the people that meant anything to him, at least. All series long he's all "I do this for my family" even though he's fully aware for the first two seasons that he needs to hide it from who he does it for and the better part of the remaining three doing it while his wife, who this is all nominally for, very disagrees. We know what Walter's about, I just don't think we have a clear picture what the Turks are about. In the end we may just have different readings on the Turks' motivations. It's cool, you're a very good poster and I still like you and I still don't make 80% of the posts I would otherwise make because you make them for me. Cape Cod Crab Chip fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Nov 23, 2016 |
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Nov 23, 2016 17:56
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Bodie grows up, man, Bodies grows old. He reached the point of Cuddie; "Whatever's in you that lets you flow how you flow, it ain't in me no more", but he had no way out of the game. Young Bodie saw killing Wallace as part of what he had to do to get ahead, later Bodie had grown to hate what that world was. Now you made me sad. NikkolasKing posted:They were always kinda...lacking in the evil department shall we say. These are the guys you can find talking about what girls they like and then there's Elena who is pure comic relief. Only if you do the Wutai quest! Fister Roboto posted:I don't think there's much point in speculating why they gave Sector 7 the works. That's nobody's business but the Turks.
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Nov 23, 2016 18:36
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The Turks are evil the same way a contract killer is. They don't take joy in their job, they just do it for the money and because they're good at it. To use D&D alignments, they'd be Lawful Evil compared to a lot of Shinra executives who despite being part of a megacorporation are only in it for themselves and will backstab each other to get even a little gain and come off more as Neutral or even Chaotic Evil.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:09
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Pretty sure Cloud and co end up killing like hundreds of random guys in battles, they are truly the evilest of evil
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Nov 23, 2016 19:12
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Every Final Fantasy Character is the Worst
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Nov 23, 2016 19:15
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Cavelcade posted:Bodie grows up, man, Bodies grows old. He reached the point of Cuddie; "Whatever's in you that lets you flow how you flow, it ain't in me no more", but he had no way out of the game. Young Bodie saw killing Wallace as part of what he had to do to get ahead, later Bodie had grown to hate what that world was. As someone who has no idea what the gently caress you crazy people are talking about, this paragraph taken out of context looks like you tried to rap and instead just went insane for a moment.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:16
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Cavelcade posted:That's nobody's business but the Turks. That'll be stuck in my head all day now, thanks. Gologle posted:As someone who has no idea what the gently caress you crazy people are talking about, this paragraph taken out of context looks like you tried to rap and instead just went insane for a moment. Stop posting and go watch The Wire.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:27
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Gologle posted:As someone who has no idea what the gently caress you crazy people are talking about, this paragraph taken out of context looks like you tried to rap and instead just went insane for a moment.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:30
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You know who else killed a bunch of people? Vegeta and I think we all know what we think of him.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:35
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I would like to have a beer with Vegeta and the Turks. I would not like to have a beer with anybody from The Wire or Breaking Bad.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:42
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Electric Phantasm posted:You know who else killed a bunch of people? Vegeta and I think we all know what we think of him. Yeah but the innocents Vegeta killed were brought back by the Dragon Balls. Probably.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:46
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Nope, he wasn't counted as one of Frieza's men.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:48
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zedprime posted:I would like to have a beer with Vegeta and the Turks. I would not like to have a beer with anybody from The Wire or Breaking Bad. You wouldn't drink with the Bunk? gently caress is wrong with you.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:50
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If Vegeta was in charge of Shinra that FF7 stuff never would have happened.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:51
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Gologle posted:If Vegeta was in charge of Shinra that FF7 stuff never would have happened. We wouldn't have to worry about the planet slowly being drained of life, Vegeta would blow the whole thing up in one tantrum.
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Nov 23, 2016 19:59
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zedprime posted:I would like to have a beer with Vegeta and the Turks. I would not like to have a beer with anybody from The Wire or Breaking Bad. Really? I'd share a bottle of wine with Gale Boetticher. He seems like the kind of guy you befriend because he's always into something cool you'd never otherwise hear about.
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Nov 23, 2016 20:04
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If Goku fell into the Lifestream how dank would his spirit bombs be
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Nov 23, 2016 20:05
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zedprime posted:I would like to have a beer with Vegeta and the Turks. I would not like to have a beer with anybody from The Wire or Breaking Bad. This is a pretty bad opinion to have there my man. Not drinking with McNulty or Lester or Stringer? Son, that's just wrong.
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Nov 23, 2016 20:08
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Terper posted:Nope, he wasn't counted as one of Frieza's men. Then why did Napa come back to life?
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Nov 23, 2016 20:14
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IcePhoenix posted:Then why did Napa come back to life? I will trigger your trap card, Nappa didn't come back.
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Nov 23, 2016 20:17
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