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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's not a good reason to funnel weapons and money to the Jihadists so they can make the situation even worse. If somebody offers you a potential out, then you take it no matter how unlikely it seems. After everything else that's happened this year, we can't afford to keep making bad assumptions on assumed wisdom. I didn't say I supported the arming of opposition forces. There is no out to the Syrian conflict until either the rebels are all dead or the Baathists are all dead and it looks like it's the rebels, along with all the civilians around them are going to be dead.
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Nov 25, 2016 20:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's not a good reason to funnel weapons and money to the Jihadists so they can make the situation even worse. If somebody offers you a potential out, then you take it no matter how unlikely it seems. After everything else that's happened this year, we can't afford to keep making bad assumptions on assumed wisdom. Probably the biggest factor keeping the war going is how Saudi Arabia and UAE funneled massive amounts of weapons to Syria opposition groups.
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Nov 25, 2016 20:14
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etalian posted:Probably the biggest factor keeping the war going is how Saudi Arabia and UAE funneled massive amounts of weapons to Syria opposition groups. i wonder where those weapons were manufactured
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Nov 25, 2016 20:15
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Al! posted:i wonder where those weapons were manufactured Most of them came from the Balkans area/former soviet states. Ironically Libya also ended up being another big supplier of weapons and explosives for opposition forces
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Nov 25, 2016 20:17
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All this regime change policy creates a cascading chaos that sweeps across the world. Weird.
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Nov 25, 2016 20:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's not a good reason to funnel weapons and money to the Jihadists so they can make the situation even worse. If somebody offers you a potential out, then you take it no matter how unlikely it seems. After everything else that's happened this year, we can't afford to keep making bad assumptions on assumed wisdom. i think the flawed assumption here is that the opposition would accept an outcome with an assad that remains in power after the brutal human rights abuses he committed. there's no real alternative to regime change because an assad regime's civil war will never end.
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Nov 25, 2016 20:24
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Concerned Citizen posted:i think the flawed assumption here is that the opposition would accept an outcome with an assad that remains in power after the brutal human rights abuses he committed. there's no real alternative to regime change because an assad regime's civil war will never end. Hm, so suddenly the responsibility for the civil war is shifted off of Assadists and onto an opposition which refuses to negotiate. I wonder what would happen if all the rebels saying "Christians and Druze to Lebanon, and Allawis to the grave" achieved regime change? https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/802156794915196929 https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/802226484417101824 https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/802229757442199552 http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html Also on the list is a website for usslibertyveterans.org, which was the American surveillance ship attacked by Israeli war planes in 1967.
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Nov 25, 2016 20:53
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etalian posted:Probably the biggest factor keeping the war going is how Saudi Arabia and UAE funneled massive amounts of weapons to Syria opposition groups. And Russia and Iran funneling in massive amounts of weapons as well. Syria isn't a 2 sided war yknow
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Nov 25, 2016 20:57
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I don't think it's xenophobic to think Russia's government is garbage
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Nov 25, 2016 21:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:All this regime change policy creates a cascading chaos that sweeps across the world. Weird. Hail Hydra?
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Nov 25, 2016 21:02
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Venom Snake posted:I don't think it's xenophobic to think Russia's government is garbage i'm not a fan but if you look at their recent political history it's exactly what you would expect to happen
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Nov 25, 2016 21:02
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Venom Snake posted:I don't think it's xenophobic to think Russia's government is garbage It's xenophobic to assume that Russia is behind a massive fake news conspiracy, and to credit organizations that smear left wing and anti-war websites which aren't even pro-Russian in any way whatsoever. Also, weirdly enough, websites that are critical of Israel. Hmm.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:14
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Hm, so suddenly the responsibility for the civil war is shifted off of Assadists and onto an opposition which refuses to negotiate. I wonder what would happen if all the rebels saying "Christians and Druze to Lebanon, and Allawis to the grave" achieved regime change? Assigning responsibility is pointless. The bottom line is an Assad regime is unworkable. I would find that preferable to the status quo if it weren't totally impossible for him to govern.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:22
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's xenophobic to assume that Russia is behind a massive fake news conspiracy, and to credit organizations that smear left wing and anti-war websites which aren't even pro-Russian in any way whatsoever. Also, weirdly enough, websites that are critical of Israel. Hmm. considering people have literally gone to russia and seen the Professional Troll Lairs uhhh
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Nov 25, 2016 21:23
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Yinlock posted:considering people have literally gone to russia and seen the Professional Troll Lairs uhhh yes, fine, but, you might remember that during the Cold War everything was blamed on the Russians. Then we blamed everything on Terrorism, but that isn't working out so now we have to go back to blaming Russia. With Trump in power that may change. The point is, there always has to be an Other to justify the Very Bad Things our nation has to do. Openly embracing self interest makes you a fascist. Hiding it makes you a liberal. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 has issued a correction as of 21:29 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 21:26
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That BAR site also has an editorial how Keith Ellison is an empty suit. Man, the left sucks. I'm selling out. Someone tell me how to become a lobbyist.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:29
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Aurubin posted:That BAR site also has an editorial how Keith Ellison is an empty suit. Man, the left sucks. I'm selling out. Someone tell me how to become a lobbyist. Just whip out your Harvard law degree and you're good to go.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's xenophobic to assume that Russia is behind a massive fake news conspiracy, and to credit organizations that smear left wing and anti-war websites which aren't even pro-Russian in any way whatsoever. Also, weirdly enough, websites that are critical of Israel. Hmm. it all comes back to israel
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Nov 25, 2016 21:32
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I think you can run for office and then after a few terms, cash out.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:32
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Concerned Citizen posted:Assigning responsibility is pointless. The bottom line is an Assad regime is unworkable. I would find that preferable to the status quo if it weren't totally impossible for him to govern. It's pointless because everyone is responsible for this outcome. Yinlock posted:considering people have literally gone to russia and seen the Professional Troll Lairs uhhh uhh, what? You think that CrooksandLiars, RawStory, and TruthDig are professional trolls in service to the Kremlin?
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Nov 25, 2016 21:33
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platzapS posted:Overall it was dull, self-congratulatory, and opaque to me as an outsider.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:33
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LegoPirateNinja posted:yes, fine, but, you might remember that during the Cold War everything was blamed on the Russians. Then we blamed everything on Terrorism, but that isn't working out so now we have to go back to blaming Russia. With Trump in power that may change. The point is, there always has to be an Other to justify the Very Bad Things our nation has to do. what if a lot of things are literally russia's fault though blaming everything on russia is dumb but equally dumb is saying they're just scapegoats and weren't constantly loving with the election
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Nov 25, 2016 21:33
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Yinlock posted:what if a lot of things are literally russia's fault though What if #pizzagate is right?
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Nov 25, 2016 21:36
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It is designed, as retired KGB General Oleg Kalugin once defined it, 'to drive wedges in the Western community alliances of all sorts, particularly NATO, to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people in Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and thus to prepare ground in case the war really occurs.' The most common subcategory of active measures is dezinformatsiya, or disinformation: feverish, if believable lies cooked up by Moscow Centre and planted in friendly media outlets to make democratic nations look sinister.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:37
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though tbf all they had to do was get the ball rolling and the home-grown american nutjobs did the rest
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Nov 25, 2016 21:38
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Russia likes to push fake news and propaganda. This isn't controversial.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:uhh, what? You think that CrooksandLiars, RawStory, and TruthDig are professional trolls in service to the Kremlin? nah but I think it'd be way easy for them to print Kremlin-origin disinformation without realizing it
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Nov 25, 2016 21:41
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make Chomsky required reading in high school imo.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:41
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Lawman 0 posted:make Chomsky required reading in high school imo. because what the left needs now is more obnoxiously woke undergrads yelling at people
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Nov 25, 2016 21:41
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i mean it's not like russia had some grand machiavellian plan here, but having a bunch of computermen running around starting poo poo wherever possible, when everyone gets their news from social media, perhaps wasn't helping.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:43
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Putin absolutely wants to the left to remain crushed and powerless and if you ignore that he's going to everything he can to gently caress us over your an idiot
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Nov 25, 2016 21:43
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Putin runs a mafia state and funds propaganda against the US, but that doesn't mean that every single site critical of the American empire is part of his web. Russia also didn't poison Hillary Clinton, run a banking server out of Trump's basement, hack Michigan's non-existent voting machines, or secretly tape a Trump orgy. If you're concerned about the effect of fake news and propaganda, inventing conspiracy theories to explain an embarrassing electoral loss is not a good way to fight back.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:47
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Joementum posted:Putin runs a mafia state and funds propaganda against the US, but that doesn't mean that every single site critical of the American empire is part of his web. Russia also didn't poison Hillary Clinton, run a banking server out of Trump's basement, hack Michigan's non-existent voting machines, or secretly tape a Trump orgy. this
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Nov 25, 2016 21:49
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Well What Now posted:because what the left needs now is more obnoxiously woke undergrads yelling at people I guarantee that if you got rid of the cult of fiction in high school and replaced English classes with a generalized liberal arts curriculum our society would be massively improved.
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Nov 25, 2016 21:49
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Yinlock posted:i mean it's not like russia had some grand machiavellian plan here, but having a bunch of computermen running around starting poo poo wherever possible, when everyone gets their news from social media, perhaps wasn't helping. computermen vs hillarymen
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Nov 25, 2016 21:51
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iospace posted:John "Two republicans for every blue collar" Podesta that was chuck schumer m8
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Nov 25, 2016 21:56
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Joementum posted:Putin runs a mafia state and funds propaganda against the US, but that doesn't mean that every single site critical of the American empire is part of his web. Russia also didn't poison Hillary Clinton, run a banking server out of Trump's basement, hack Michigan's non-existent voting machines, or secretly tape a Trump orgy. oh yeah not saying it was ALL RUSSIA, just that russia was definitely loving around during all this Top City Homo posted:computermen vs hillarymen smash the patriarchy
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Nov 25, 2016 21:56
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Lawman 0 posted:I guarantee that if you got rid of the cult of fiction in high school and replaced English classes with a generalized liberal arts curriculum our society would be massively improved. very probably but I don't see how forcing everyone to read Chomsky will accomplish that
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Nov 25, 2016 22:00
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tbf America has a long and storied history of loving with other countries politics
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Nov 25, 2016 22:00
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Top City Homo posted:ballistic 2: computermen vs hillarymen
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Nov 25, 2016 22:00
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