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Ice Cream Barbara posted:Oh my god juche apologists are real Wait till you find out that there are North Korean defectors who go back, because they prefer the DPRK to South Korea. When people say "North Korea is sustainable" they don't mean that it's great, they mean that they've managed to eke out a working state and economy in spite of all the disadvantages against it. Juche is the reactionary ideology of an embattled garrison state, which has legitimate fears of being invaded at any moment, and is still technically in a state of war with the South. In spite of all that, they can still manage to work out a functional nuclear weapons program as the most isolated country on the planet. Nobody is arguing that we should emulate Juche, but imagine what the United States could achieve as the wealthiest and most productive country on the planet under the direction of a socialist party. Bulgogi Hoagie can bitch and moan all he likes about Cuban party purges, while ignoring the ubiquitous state terror carried out by the United States both domestically and abroad. Leftists and Civil Rights activists used to be targeted for murder by the FBI & CIA, and now the United States can assassinate its own citizens, detain people indefinitely, and torture them on little or no evidence and without due process. Yet we don't even have substantial conquests of social ills to excuse any of it. Tens of millions still have no healthcare, and pretty soon millions more will lose their plans after the ACA is abolished. Tens of millions of people are food insecure, including millions of children, while a party is coming to power that will threaten to slash or abolish the Food Stamps program. Tens of millions are chronically unemployed, and are no longer even counted in the unemployment figures. Half the country is already in poverty, or one month away from destitution if they lose their jobs. Nobody can organize a union or protest working conditions if they don't already have one, because they're afraid of being fired. But hey, you've still got the freedom to buy the newest Call of Duty from Gamestop and stuff your fat pre-diabetic face with a baconator. Greatest country in the world.
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Nov 26, 2016 21:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:But hey, you've still got the freedom to buy the newest Call of Duty from Gamestop and stuff your fat pre-diabetic face with a baconator. Greatest country in the world. this is why i moved to america  not because of the better educational opportunities even though our education seriously needs a reform I'd like to read about why defectors go back, it seems like a case thing rather than a loose generalization and what the reasonings are. Like leaving family behind is the hardest thing to do, as an immigrant, so if you go back for family, not because the governance was better than that's a totally different reason. Sure worked out for my grandmother because she had too many friends and built a life back there even though the country absolutely went to poo poo. She's dead now, and died with a bunch of strangers in a small shack so there you go~   Thanks America for turning her away. Your decadent capitalist ways yet claims another victim~ 
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Nov 26, 2016 21:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Wait till you find out that there are North Korean defectors who go back, because they prefer the DPRK to South Korea. you know some new posters were actually starting to take you seriously, i'm glad you've provided this lesson in how nuts you are
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Nov 26, 2016 21:50
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sure famine and horrific oppression is a common occurrence, but the usa does bad things so that makes it fine.
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Nov 26, 2016 21:50
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punk rebel ecks posted:So North Korea was only doing well because of aid? More or less, they were China's pet that got a healthy bit of support. When that got cut back NK just so happened to start doing badly. I mean it didn't help that it was led by a succession of madmen, of course, but losing a superpower's backing sure was bad. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Wait till you find out that there are North Korean defectors who go back, because they prefer the DPRK to South Korea. so cut the poo poo do you actually believe this is between either Literal Donald Trump and agreeing with you and other idiots that Castro was actually cool and good to purge his people regularly? Like, do you genuinely believe those are the options we're picking between? Also quick question literally what the gently caress have you done for revolution to give you the balls to act like everyone who disagrees with you is a fattened cow just mindlessly walking to the slaughter?
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Nov 26, 2016 21:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Wait till you find out that there are North Korean defectors who go back, because they prefer the DPRK to South Korea.  "these people did bad things, so this totally excuses the bad things these other guys I like did"
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Nov 26, 2016 21:58
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Tatum Girlparts posted:lol jesus christ 'there also are elections in cuba so it's democratic' was said itt unironically. Yeah is not like the last election in the USA is an embarrasment.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:00
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DoctorGonzo posted:Yeah is not like the last election in the USA is an embarrasment. just learning from example, not leading by example obviously since we are a nation of immigrants~
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Nov 26, 2016 22:01
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DoctorGonzo posted:Yeah is not like the last election in the USA is an embarrasment. what
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Nov 26, 2016 22:13
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Yinlock posted:you know some new posters were actually starting to take you seriously, i'm glad you've provided this lesson in how nuts you are Care to explain which part of that post is wrong, exactly? Tatum Girlparts posted:so cut the poo poo do you actually believe this is between either Literal Donald Trump and agreeing with you and other idiots that Castro was actually cool and good to purge his people regularly? Like, do you genuinely believe those are the options we're picking between? Uh, what other option is there? The claims being made are that America is cool and good, in spite of its massive institutional failures, inequalities, systemic poverty, human rights violations, and political persecutions. People are arguing that Castro was cool and good in spite of the bad things, because communist Cuba accomplished a lot of good things under that state. The point is that you shouldn't be casting rocks from a glass house. quote:Also quick question literally what the gently caress have you done for revolution to give you the balls to act like everyone who disagrees with you is a fattened cow just mindlessly walking to the slaughter? I pay dues while I have an income, and I try to sell people on socialist policies. That's about all I can do in Middle America, where we don't even have the resources for Democratic politics. Now, what have you done to liberate Cubans from the yoke of Castroism to act like anybody who defends the revolution should move there?
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Nov 26, 2016 22:14
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Care to explain which part of that post is wrong, exactly? you are doing the classic dumbass leftist nonsense of screaming loudly and furiously about the US's shortcomings, real, or imagined, as though it excuses any of the many, many horrible things that castro is responsible for so, in short, no, very few people care to explain anything to you because you are trying to derail the argument into being about the US instead
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Nov 26, 2016 22:20
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Lastgirl posted:I'd like to read about why defectors go back, it seems like a case thing rather than a loose generalization and what the reasonings are. http://www.businessinsider.com/why-north-korean-defectors-keep-returning-home-2013-12 There are social biases against North Koreans in the South, because they're looked down upon as backwards hicks. They don't have any employable skills, and even if they did they may still face discrimination for being a northerner. South Korea has national health insurance, but almost half of healthcare costs are still out of pocket, so if you have no income you're SOL, while North Korea has an anemic but fully socialized system that's better than nothing. Kim Jong-Un also did away with punishments for double defectors, and is offering a cash bounty for returning and a chance to get featured on North Korean television. So if they can't hack it in the South, they now can viably return north. One guy even managed to defect back and forth four times. The easiest way to make money as a defector is to sell your stories about how bad it is in the homeland, but people pay more for the most dramatic stories, which encourages a lot of over the top embellishment. If all you've got is that you went hungry a lot, got beat by the cops a few times, and couldn't heat your home you're not going to get a book deal. A lot of defector stories end up reading like McMartin Preschool childrens' testimonies because they're so outlandish. Sun Wu Kampf posted:you are doing the classic dumbass leftist nonsense of screaming loudly and furiously about the US's shortcomings, real, or imagined, as though it excuses any of the many, many horrible things that castro is responsible for Remind us which country has maintained a decades long embargo against Cuba, and tried to assassinate Castro over 600 times. The interrelation between Cuba and the United States can't be ignored, especially when people are trying to act as if America doesn't have any problems or never engaged in political persecutions against internal enemies. The comparison was being made before me. Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 22:32 on Nov 26, 2016 |
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Nov 26, 2016 22:30
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^^^and now we've arrived at the 'defectors are lying capitalist whores' stagePener Kropoopkin posted:Care to explain which part of that post is wrong, exactly? America has many, many, flaws. I'm not sure anyone ITT has claimed it doesn't? America having many flaws doesn't magically cancel out Cuba's flaws. You can't respond to 'Castro's government brutally oppressed any dissent' with 'yea but the US does bad things too' any more than you'd accept someone responding to 'Gitmo and other places like it are human rights abuses' with 'yea but North Korea has death camps so'.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:32
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Tatum Girlparts posted:America has many, many, flaws. I'm not sure anyone ITT has claimed it doesn't? America having many flaws doesn't magically cancel out Cuba's flaws. You can't respond to 'Castro's government brutally oppressed any dissent' with 'yea but the US does bad things too' any more than you'd accept someone responding to 'Gitmo and other places like it are human rights abuses' with 'yea but North Korea has death camps so'. when has blindly adoring an ideology without considering it's flaws ever worked poorly for anyone
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Nov 26, 2016 22:34
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communism is good ergo those who follow it are also good, qed
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Nov 26, 2016 22:35
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Tatum Girlparts posted:America has many, many, flaws. I'm not sure anyone ITT has claimed it doesn't? America having many flaws doesn't magically cancel out Cuba's flaws. You can't respond to 'Castro's government brutally oppressed any dissent' with 'yea but the US does bad things too' any more than you'd accept someone responding to 'Gitmo and other places like it are human rights abuses' with 'yea but North Korea has death camps so'. Tatum, the person you voted for president this year was instrumental in suppressing the minimum wage in Haiti, and was the leading voice in the US government behind the destruction of Libya. On top of that, she was advocating for a no-fly-zone in Syria that threatened to bring the United States into a shooting war with another nuclear power. We're the ones arguing against a black and white interpretation of whether or not somebody was good or bad. Countries and their heads of state are all complicated entities, they're not Doctor Dooms reigning over their respective Latverias.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:36
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Tatum, the person you voted for president this year was instrumental in suppressing the minimum wage in Haiti, and was the leading voice in the US government behind the destruction of Libya. On top of that, she was advocating for a no-fly-zone in Syria that threatened to bring the United States into a shooting war with another nuclear power. We're the ones arguing against a black and white interpretation of whether or not somebody was good or bad. Countries and their heads of state are all complicated entities, they're not Doctor Dooms reigning over their respective Latverias. 
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Nov 26, 2016 22:38
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Thank you for the name change, all.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:40
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Tatum, the person you voted for president this year was instrumental in suppressing the minimum wage in Haiti, and was the leading voice in the US government behind the destruction of Libya. On top of that, she was advocating for a no-fly-zone in Syria that threatened to bring the United States into a shooting war with another nuclear power. We're the ones arguing against a black and white interpretation of whether or not somebody was good or bad. Countries and their heads of state are all complicated entities, they're not Doctor Dooms reigning over their respective Latverias. Ok and if anyone claimed Castro was a literal super villain cackling and pounding off while he watched tapes of state sponsored torturers working over dissidents you'd be right to call them stupid. What we're actually doing here is saying that a very good literacy program and fighting a previous repressive regime doesn't magically outweigh the whole constant human rights abuses to most people, and then people like you running in to say 'UH BUT THE US IS BAD TOO' as if literally anyone was saying the US was a shining city on the hill. You can't pull the smug 'heh, not everything is black and white friendo' card when all this started because some white boy communist called cuban-americans being happy that Castro is dead worms.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:42
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zen death robot posted:This isn't defending your own personal points, you're just deflecting and doing a bad job of it. My points aren't even being argued. This is all boiling down to an endless tu quoque. Tatum Girlparts posted:Ok and if anyone claimed Castro was a literal super villain cackling and pounding off while he watched tapes of state sponsored torturers working over dissidents you'd be right to call them stupid. What we're actually doing here is saying that a very good literacy program and fighting a previous repressive regime doesn't magically outweigh the whole constant human rights abuses to most people, and then people like you running in to say 'UH BUT THE US IS BAD TOO' as if literally anyone was saying the US was a shining city on the hill. That's exactly what Bulgogi Hoagie was saying, and it's why I addressed him directly.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:42
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Does forums poster Tatum Girlparts ever pull the rod out of their rear end
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Nov 26, 2016 22:44
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Calibanibal posted:Does forums poster Tatum Girlparts ever pull the rod out of their rear end not unless you got something better to replace it with dollface
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Nov 26, 2016 22:46
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Of the US Presidents that serverd while Castro was in power, how many were more evil than Fidel, and how many were less evil?
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Nov 26, 2016 22:46
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Of the US Presidents that serverd while Castro was in power, how many were more evil than Fidel, and how many were less evil? please rate the evil of us presidents on the Castro Scale
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Nov 26, 2016 22:47
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Of the US Presidents that serverd while Castro was in power, how many were more evil than Fidel, and how many were less evil? dude no fair, Reagan's on that scale and he'll wreck the curve
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Nov 26, 2016 22:47
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Yinlock posted:please rate the evil of us presidents on the Castro Scale Ronald Reagan: 1488 Castros
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Nov 26, 2016 22:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Wait till you find out that there are North Korean defectors who go back, because they prefer the DPRK to South Korea. source your quotes holy poo poo
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Nov 26, 2016 22:50
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Wait till you find out that there are North Korean defectors who go back, because they prefer the DPRK to South Korea. Working economy that can barely keep its population alive by 1) relying on foreign food aid 2) renting out its own citizens as slaves to foreign governments 3) running a giant state sponsored network of meth labs Shut the gently caress up
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Nov 26, 2016 22:50
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"Some people in this country are more than one missed lunch away from starving to death, what a victory for socialism" - a loving person posting from a warm American home with Internet connection, probably with Dorito crumbs falling all over the place as he rambles about the importance of working the kulaks to death in a camp
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Nov 26, 2016 22:51
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:Thank you for the name change, all.  omg yes
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Nov 26, 2016 22:52
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steinrokkan posted:Working economy that can barely keep its population alive by 1) relying on foreign food aid 2) renting out its own citizens as slaves to foreign governments 3) running a giant state sponsored network of meth labs I said it was working, I never said it was good. I dunno what parts of "North Korea is not great" or "we shouldn't emulate Juche" actually meant "North Korea is good, and Juche is the leading light of communism."
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Nov 26, 2016 22:53
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I said it was working, I never said it was good. I dunno what parts of "North Korea is not great" or "we shouldn't emulate Juche" actually meant "North Korea is good, and Juche is the leading light of communism." A country that can't keep its people alive without external charity, slavery and cross border criminal activities is not working.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:54
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Can anyone suggest a good AV for my new name? I suspect some of the Castro Poonhound pics in here would work.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:54
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I said it was working, I never said it was good. I dunno what parts of "North Korea is not great" or "we shouldn't emulate Juche" actually meant "North Korea is good, and Juche is the leading light of communism." my dude 'relies on foreign aid to keep less than the majority of its population from starving in the street' is the literal definition of a country's system not working.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:56
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i read cspam for the nuance of the arguments
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Nov 26, 2016 22:56
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i will say i think homework, deimus, peter make good arguments and most of the responses are people making GBS threads their diapers
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Nov 26, 2016 22:59
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:My points aren't even being argued. This is all boiling down to an endless tu quoque. actually Fidel is literally a communist monster from the same line as Stalin, Khrushchev and mao. im unironically going to state that whatever good these people did will never ever justify the atrocities and purges they have committed, hth
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Nov 26, 2016 23:01
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punk rebel ecks posted:Wasn't North Korea developing very well until the mid 70s, even surpassing South Korea? What happened? It also couldn't really export its heavy manufactured goods to China, partly because they were kinda enemies and partly because China was trying to develop its own industry, while the DPRK's eastern bloc buds like East Germany were loving miles away and COMECON was probably charging a fair whack to send goods from Pyongyang to East Berlin when the price of energy was so high due to the oil crisis (again a guess but might be right?). Meanwhile the South had a very ready supply of aid from the US and eventually Japan which allowed it to industrialise despite its lack of mineral wealth, which is all in the north of the peninsula (the ROK has all the good farmland). South Korea got about as much US aid between 1948-78 as the whole of Africa, because it was an extremely staunch US ally (it was the third largest pro-RVN force in the Vietnam War, including the RVN itself), and it invested it well. Rural people flocking to the cities due to the green revolution freeing up labour as this happened and zero political freedom until the late eighties meant there was also pretty much cheap-as-free labour to exploit to make their industrialisation happen on a budget.
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Nov 26, 2016 23:05
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steinrokkan posted:A country that can't keep its people alive without external charity, slavery and cross border criminal activities is not working. 1) There are foreign charities providing vital services to impoverished children in the United States, while 2) undocumented workers are illegally exploited for slave wages in sweatshops, or American capital relies on foreign slave labor to produce cheap goods, and 3) a lot of workers use meth to keep up productivity at their menial jobs, and an international drug trade is the only source of livable incomes for hundreds of thousands of people in economic abandonment zones. Nobody however, is going to argue that the United States economy doesn't work. It may not be working well for most of the people who live in it, but it works in whole as a system. The North Koreans say the exact same poo poo in their propaganda outlets, talking about how the United States has millions of people going hungry while Pyeongyang has fried chicken & beer cruises. If the North Korean economy didn't work, then the whole country would have collapsed, which should have been happening any day now for the last 4 decades. Conditions in North Korea won't ever improve by maintaining a strict line on embargo to push the country into systemic collapse. They adjusted to the realities of isolation after they lost trade with the Soviet Union in the 90s and were hit by a famine.
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Nov 26, 2016 23:06
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:1) There are foreign charities providing vital services to impoverished children in the United States, while 2) undocumented workers are illegally exploited for slave wages in sweatshops, or American capital relies on foreign slave labor to produce cheap goods, and 3) a lot of workers use meth to keep up productivity at their menial jobs, and an international drug trade is the only source of livable incomes for hundreds of thousands of people in economic abandonment zones. Congrats on your dual Nobel Prize in Sophistry and False Equivalency.
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Nov 26, 2016 23:07
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