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Non Serviam posted:Or the people who couldn't choose their leaders in free elections? Us Americans wouldn't know
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Nov 26, 2016 18:27
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evilmiera posted:As someone who lives in a country with socialist laws, healthcare for pretty much all and a distinct dislike of a lot of large corporations... gently caress Fidel Castro. Better men than him more or less bloodlessly managed what he did without murdering people who went against him and those countries had democratic elections to boot. No, but you see what he did is OK because... something about the US... Kissinger? Basically the narrative now is to deflect criticism of the dead tyrant by point at the US, as if that explained the repression and murder within Cuba. It's just WHATABOUTism
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Nov 26, 2016 18:28
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Just a big laugh at leftists who think they will ever achieve revolution without blood.
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Nov 26, 2016 18:56
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Black Baby Goku posted:Just a big laugh at leftists who think they will ever achieve revolution without blood. This. We can't just look at the results and point fingers at bad things and go "this is bad, why can't you fix this".
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Nov 26, 2016 19:02
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You have to look at the big picture here.
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Nov 26, 2016 19:04
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Yeah you see, it's good that Castro somehow managed to put some good universal healthcare in that country. He's was a true revolutionary and has a big historical importance. Still, he was a dictator. I won't grieve on his death one bit. Cuba's quality of life is still poor, just like its human rights record. Also this: Black Baby Goku posted:Just a big laugh at leftists who think they will ever achieve revolution without blood.
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Nov 26, 2016 19:07
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Black Baby Goku posted:Just a big laugh at leftists who think they will ever achieve revolution without blood. What's stopping you then, champ? Edit. To clarify, I'm not a leftist, since I'm not an imbecile.
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Nov 26, 2016 19:55
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evilmiera posted:As someone who lives in a country with socialist laws, healthcare for pretty much all and a distinct dislike of a lot of large corporations... gently caress Fidel Castro. Better men than him more or less bloodlessly managed what he did without murdering people who went against him and those countries had democratic elections to boot. Well, Mr. Canadian/European, the third world had several attempts to elect progressive candidates on democratic elections and it didn't work well for Dilma, Lula, Bertrand Aristide, Salvador Allende, Joăo Goulart, Patrice Lumumba, Mossadegh, Gaitán, the list goes on.
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Nov 26, 2016 20:07
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Lula government was pretty good overall
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Nov 26, 2016 20:21
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Symbolic Butt posted:Lula government was pretty good overall Everything good is getting overturned by the Coupists. RIP.
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Nov 26, 2016 20:23
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It should be kept in mind that the exodus of anti-castro cubans to south florida was directly responsible for turning Miami into America's drug, murder and rape capital back in the 80s (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 26, 2016 22:10
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When Cuba sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And I'm gonna be honest, they are all gusanos.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:20
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Borneo Jimmy posted:It should be kept in mind that the exodus of anti-castro cubans to south florida was directly responsible for turning Miami into America's drug, murder and rape capital back in the 80s In their defense, Miami was just a big pussy, waiting to get hosed.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:26
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Non Serviam posted:In their defense, Miami was just a big pussy, waiting to get hosed. Like throwing a chorizo into Toys For rear end Bum
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Nov 26, 2016 22:31
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Black Baby Goku posted:Just a big laugh at leftists who think they will ever achieve revolution without blood. Considering Ortega allowed free elections and now is in power again I think Castro could have.
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Nov 26, 2016 22:36
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Crowsbeak posted:Considering Ortega allowed free elections and now is in power again I think Castro could have. Because South America has nothing to worry about with coups and reactionaries and the United States...
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Nov 26, 2016 22:52
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Crowsbeak posted:Considering Ortega allowed free elections and now is in power again I think Castro could have. Is Nicaragua socialist at all with it's economic policies? Serious question, I know little of the country.
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Nov 26, 2016 23:03
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Black Baby Goku posted:Because South America has nothing to worry about with coups and reactionaries and the United States... You know, if your political ideology involves trampling on civil liberties, you might want to rethink it.
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Nov 26, 2016 23:29
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Black Baby Goku posted:Because South America has nothing to worry about with coups and reactionaries and the United States... Yet did that mean Castro had to turn on former allies for not being Stalinists?
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Nov 26, 2016 23:31
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As I said before, Cuba is pretty fascinating to me. I'm not mourning Fidel's death or anything, but he was an iconic political figure and responsible for probably the one legit socialist experiment we still had going. I don't think it's unfair to say he was one of the most relevant leaders of the century, for good and bad. Politically his death won't change much as far as I'm aware, but I hope it leads to a laxer regime (Raul already looks like he's easier to deal with, but I'll acknowledge that I'm not very well-versed in Cuban politics).
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Nov 26, 2016 23:42
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Still hoping to hear more from Cuban goons out there!
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Nov 26, 2016 23:51
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Friendly Humour posted:Still hoping to hear more from Cuban goons out there! Correction, you want to hear from Cubans who will defend the Castro tyranny.
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Nov 27, 2016 00:01
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Crowsbeak posted:Considering Ortega allowed free elections and now is in power again I think Castro could have. are we just ignoring the first decade of fsln rule which came about from armed struggle, then
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Nov 27, 2016 00:24
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Black Baby Goku posted:Funny how everyone who hates him were the rich bourgeois who fled to keep their wealth LOL. My family were poor college students and carpenters who fought for Castro and were imprisoned and escaped because they wanted a democratic state like Castro promised initially. Tell me more about the bougies who left because of their precious money.
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Nov 27, 2016 00:38
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Black Baby Goku posted:Just a big laugh at leftists who think they will ever achieve revolution without blood. Non Serviam posted:What's stopping you then, champ? I am the rare leftist-leaning Cuban American and I don't think I'm an imbecile, but the way Castro implemented socialism gives me pause that it really could ever work via a centrally-planned economy. I don't think the ends justify the means if the means is absolute repression and control (which almost always leads to nepotism and cronyism).
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Nov 27, 2016 00:46
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Rexicon1 posted:I am the rare leftist-leaning Cuban American and I don't think I'm an imbecile, but the way Castro implemented socialism gives me pause that it really could ever work via a centrally-planned economy. I don't think the ends justify the means if the means is absolute repression and control (which almost always leads to nepotism and cronyism). I was being facetious. I don't have an issue with the left, I have problems with totalitarians, on either side, who are so convinced they're right that they're willing to spill blood for it. Marxists in this thread, like Plutonis, are just as dogmatic as members of ISIS (sans the actual courage)
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Nov 27, 2016 01:01
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Homework Explainer posted:are we just ignoring the first decade of fsln rule which came about from armed struggle, then That's the point, Batista did have to be overthrown through armed struggle, but Cuba could have become a democracy at some point since then, particularly in the post-Cold War era. The fact that they didn't is proof that Castro was a tyrant, and installing his brother as ruler when he retired doesn't exactly scream power to the people to me.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:01
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Rexicon1 posted:I am the rare leftist-leaning Cuban American and I don't think I'm an imbecile, but the way Castro implemented socialism gives me pause that it really could ever work via a centrally-planned economy. I don't think the ends justify the means if the means is absolute repression and control (which almost always leads to nepotism and cronyism). I'm sorry comrade the only failure was the failure to apply the immortal science correctly by the worker state which is of course the fault of capitalist infiltrators and their 'dissident' third-wayist allies.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:07
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Rexicon1 posted:I am the rare leftist-leaning Cuban American and I don't think I'm an imbecile, but the way Castro implemented socialism gives me pause that it really could ever work via a centrally-planned economy. I don't think the ends justify the means if the means is absolute repression and control (which almost always leads to nepotism and cronyism). I think that's a fair point. I lean towards social-democracy because it's very hard for me to see socialism in its Marxist form being implemented without a strong leader figure, and we all know those always end up terrified of losing that position and just do whatever is necessary to keep it. Cuba also didn't seem to have a strong enough groundwork to implement that economical format, and it shows on its current infrastructure and wages.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:12
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Non Serviam posted:I was being facetious. I don't have an issue with the left, I have problems with totalitarians, on either side, who are so convinced they're right that they're willing to spill blood for it. All people have a point where there willing to spill blood.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:14
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Non Serviam posted:I was being facetious. I don't have an issue with the left, I have problems with totalitarians, on either side, who are so convinced they're right that they're willing to spill blood for it. Plutonis isn't a marxist though.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:19
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Sinteres posted:That's the point, Batista did have to be overthrown through armed struggle, but Cuba could have become a democracy at some point since then, particularly in the post-Cold War era. The fact that they didn't is proof that Castro was a tyrant, and installing his brother as ruler when he retired doesn't exactly scream power to the people to me. cuba is a democracy. https://www.scribd.com/document/332358714/Work-and-Democracy-in-Socialist-Cuba
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Nov 27, 2016 01:22
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Oh good, here come the resident stalinists to defend the traitors of the working classes.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:29
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Homework Explainer posted:cuba is a democracy. Why do the unions need the communist party HE?
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Nov 27, 2016 01:41
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Rexicon1 posted:I am the rare leftist-leaning Cuban American and I don't think I'm an imbecile, but the way Castro implemented socialism gives me pause that it really could ever work via a centrally-planned economy. I don't think the ends justify the means if the means is absolute repression and control (which almost always leads to nepotism and cronyism). The problem is that Communists always choose statism over socialism. Socialism is defined as the public/workers controlling the economy. Communists societies claim they will do this, except there is one MAJOR problem. What if the people/workers vote for their businesses and firms to be more pro- trade and less equality than the Communists intend? By being Communist you are essentially jumping to the conclusion that once the common person has control over the economy that they will create an economy within Marx's vision. Who's to say that the public at large wouldn't such an economy? Who's to say that the majority of the public would vote in people in their local businesses to ship specific jobs overseas in order for promised luxuries? Who is to say that they would vote to have different pay rates in an attempt to motivate workers in specific fields? Communists realize this, thus they strip away these rights from the get go. The reason why America finally managed to make democracy work was because they built a political system designed not to implement an ideology, but one that is flexible enough to implement a variety of different ideologies with the ability to go back to square one. In contrast to this, Marxist-Leninism is as far away from this as possible. It creates a political system that can only implement one specific type of ideology with it making it impossible to be flexible enough to go back to "capitalism". It thus creates something that isn't socialism at all, but simply statism where the government in power decides everything. Until socialists have faith in the people making correct decisions and building a system around their choices, socialism will never work.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:43
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Statism is good as hell, anarchist ideals are the long-expired fantasy of reaction to monarchial Europe in the mid 1800s.
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Nov 27, 2016 01:52
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Lawman 0 posted:Why do the unions need the communist party HE? are you asking in cuba's case specifically or more generally? because the way unions operate in cuba is the way they operate in other socialist countries: as mediators between the party, managers and the workers in each firm
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Nov 27, 2016 01:59
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Homework Explainer posted:are you asking in cuba's case specifically or more generally? because the way unions operate in cuba is the way they operate in other socialist countries: as mediators between the party, managers and the workers in each firm The reading you gave us makes them sound like neutered speedbumps for local party policy.
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Nov 27, 2016 02:04
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Lawman 0 posted:The reading you gave us makes them sound like neutered speedbumps for local party policy. the reading also details how that might have been true in 1960, but in the decade after unions found far greater degrees of autonomy and a key role in the system dealing with the "non-antagonistic contradictions," as the cubans borrowed from mao. it's a mistake to assume unions would have the exact same role they do in a capitalist country and to present any deviation from that role as some kind of betrayal e: to narrow the focus a bit, i'd point to p. 152-160 of the source i linked. there's a lot of info there R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 02:10
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I already know the answer to this question, but have any of those lauding Castro in this thread actually ever lived in Cuba for any length of time?
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Nov 27, 2016 02:22
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