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NewForumSoftware posted:Well we can just start with what wikipedia has since you seem to be lacking as to any real basic understand.
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Nov 27, 2016 08:59
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Unless you are a libertarian or a Marxist you're probably a neoliberal, sorry folks
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Nov 27, 2016 09:00
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Trabisnikof posted:lol how exactly is that different from what I said? It's not that different, your attempt was just piss poor and missed any sort of actual attempt at nailing down what you're trying to say. In essence, for someone who's up in arms about definitions to provide one that's "small govt, business for all, etc" kind of takes the steam out of your moral crusade to make sure we're using words right. Now, do you want to explain what the $15/hr minimum wage that was recently added to the Democratic platform has anything to do with whether the platform has been neoliberal for the past 40 years? Gail Wynand posted:Unless you are a libertarian or a Marxist you're probably a neoliberal, sorry folks Those aren't the only groups that oppose globalization and deregulation but yeah, there's not many of us out here that aren't willing to look the other way when it comes to America enslaving the rest of the world in the name of economic progress that's only going to destroy the planet via climate change.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:02
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NewForumSoftware posted:Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at what it means? Where is it being used incorrectly? Sure, you got the first half of the definition already: Free-market democrats. But contemporary neoliberals have two main parts of their strategy beyond this: 1) Use class inequalities as voting capital to buy just enough of the vote to win. 2) If negative externalities don't affect your voting block then they don't exist. That's why when Trabisnikof asks if a minimum wage policy is a neoliberal strategy, I follow up by asking if we're talking about the US's minimum wage or Haiti's. After all, if you suppress the minimum wage of a 3rd world country that makes a lot of your garments, those garments stay cheap and no one in America has any visceral connection to all the suffering it causes!
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Nov 27, 2016 09:03
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Gail Wynand posted:Unless you are a libertarian or a Marxist you're probably a neoliberal, sorry folks lol if you arent a marxist tbh
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Nov 27, 2016 09:13
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I think the term "neoliberalism" in contemporary use is usually a euphemism used by Marxists who are scared to just say "capitalism." Makes sense given that the contemporary usage came out of the 70s and 80s in Latin America, where sounding too Marxist could easily result in disappearance or torture.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:13
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Gail Wynand posted:I think the term "neoliberalism" in contemporary use is usually a euphemism used by Marxists who are scared to just say "capitalism." You can actually be not ok with both things, neoliberalism is just a particularly dangerous and bad form of capitalism. Like, if there is any group that isn't afraid to use the word "capitalism" it's marxists.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:14
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NewForumSoftware posted:You can actually be not ok with both things, neoliberalism is just a particularly dangerous and bad form of capitalism. quote:It was originally an economic philosophy that emerged among European liberal scholars in the 1930s in an attempt to trace a so-called 'Third' or 'Middle Way' between the conflicting philosophies of classical liberalism and socialist planning.[19]:14–5 The impetus for this development arose from a desire to avoid repeating the economic failures of the early 1930s, which were mostly blamed by neoliberals on the economic policy of classical liberalism. In the decades that followed, the use of the term neoliberal tended to refer to theories at variance with the more laissez-faire doctrine of classical liberalism, and promoted instead a market economy under the guidance and rules of a strong state, a model which came to be known as the social market economy.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:18
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Gail Wynand posted:So the New Deal and postwar European social democracy are neoliberal as the term was originally understood. And? What's your point?
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Nov 27, 2016 09:22
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Gail Wynand posted:Unless you are a libertarian or a Marxist you're probably a neoliberal, sorry folks But only if you're bad, because the word means bad people.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:24
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Bip Roberts posted:But only if you're bad, because the word means bad people. Honestly being a proponent of the economic establishment that's been in power over the past 40 years does kind of make you a bad person. If Obama appointing the same guy to the fed that GWB did didn't make your stomach sink a bit you're not really doing politics right
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Nov 27, 2016 09:26
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NewForumSoftware posted:And?
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Nov 27, 2016 09:28
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NewForumSoftware posted:Honestly being a proponent of the economic establishment that's been in power over the past 40 years does kind of make you a bad person. Yeah, but "neoliberal" is just a meaningless pejorative thrown around without any solid denotation besides "real poopy".
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Nov 27, 2016 09:28
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Gail Wynand posted:So if you're not a Marxist and no current developed country has an acceptable economic system (they're all neoliberal including Scandinavia btw) what is your alternative? Juche? Voting for someone who wants to change things?
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Nov 27, 2016 09:28
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NewForumSoftware posted:Voting for someone who wants to change things? I did and he's gonna be president in January.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:29
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Bip Roberts posted:I did and he's gonna be president in January. I unironically hope Donald Trump does good things for America it's a shame that it's such a dastardly position to hold these days
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Nov 27, 2016 09:30
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NewForumSoftware posted:I unironically hope Donald Trump does good things for America Good luck there bro.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:30
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I am gonna have some serious schadenfreude when Trump slaps on a few symbolic antidumping duties, does a pro forma renegotiation of NAFTA which is just a copy/paste of the TPP, and proclaims we have beaten the perfidious Mexicans and Chinese. Then his voters get turbofucked by Ryan and his crew. Well, either that or I'll have to join my neighborhood defensive militia to keep the Trumpstaffel at bay. I live in a gay neighborhood though so at least everyone's in good shape and we have some burly bears to provide muscle.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:35
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Gail Wynand posted:I am gonna have some serious schadenfreude when Trump slaps on a few symbolic antidumping duties, does a pro forma renegotiation of NAFTA which is just a copy/paste of the TPP, and proclaims we have beaten the perfidious Mexicans and Chinese. Then his voters get turbofucked by Ryan and his crew. Same, at this point the question is what happens when we actually enter a time of crisis where we need the President to take a more active role. The way Bush and Paulson approached the financial crisis doesn't bode well for the future if there's some sort of economic shock. I don't see Trump and whoever he appoints doing any better.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:37
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NewForumSoftware posted:I unironically hope Donald Trump does good things for America Naive, not dastardly.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:45
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NewForumSoftware posted:I unironically hope Donald Trump does good things for America We all should hope he does good things whether we want him there or not, because bad things are bad. e: Of course I don't expect that to be the outcome at all unfortunately.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:47
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NewForumSoftware posted:I unironically hope Donald Trump does good things for America I unironically wish that Trump does good things for America too. However I don't see this happening. If wishes were horses beggars would ride. He didn't drain the swamp because he had no stable of intelligent political insiders. He has to rely on the republicans to fill out positions. Same swamp same problems.
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Nov 27, 2016 09:56
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I hope Trump somehow does some good through sheer incompetence.
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Nov 27, 2016 10:00
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This is an interesting opinion on how Trump won the election from Vi Hart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td5xFxiEuQQ America Inc. fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 10:25
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Ice Phisherman posted:I unironically wish that Trump does good things for America too. He's not Hitler, he's the Enabling Act. The GOP Congress, the one chock full of Brownback acolytes and Koch stooges looking to unload almost a decade worth of spite on America and its public institutions? That's the Hitler here. Trump's just the neutered appearance of formal adherence on hand to grant blanket approval to their actions.
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Nov 27, 2016 10:28
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Gail Wynand posted:I think the term "neoliberalism" in contemporary use is usually a euphemism used by Marxists who are scared to just say "capitalism." Neoliberal theory is distinct from neoliberal policy, which showed up in force in the 70s and looks like a class project of the rich. Edit: Bip Roberts posted:Yeah, but "neoliberal" is just a meaningless pejorative thrown around without any solid denotation besides "real poopy". This is what I learned from a podcasted economic geography course I listened to: The Three Ds of Neoliberal Economic Doctrine are:
Neoliberal policy emphasizes those three things. It's basically [Classical Liberalism] + [Fundamentalist Belief In Markets] + [Is A Huge Scam]. Neoliberals are the people who say, "The Free Market doesn't need government," and, "Negative externalities fix themselves in fully deregulated environments," or who think the solution to everything is the one-two combo of privatization and deregulation. All that's part of the same one thing: Neoliberalism. It's also often confused with neoconservativism, which is hawkish foreign policy that prominently features the concept of smashing up countries you don't like to try to force their integration into the western-led phenomena of globalization. This is understandable as neoliberals and neoconservatives have a lot of overlap on policy preferences and agendas. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 10:35
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MizPiz posted:So then what's it called when all this is done under the pretense that it's anti-racist? Just liberalism works fine, or the Democratic party platform. 'Neoliberalism' refers more to a historical phenomenon than an ideology adhered to per se
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Nov 27, 2016 10:58
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Gail Wynand posted:I think the term "neoliberalism" in contemporary use is usually a euphemism used by Marxists who are scared to just say "capitalism." It refers to a specific set of historical political and economic trends primarily in Anglophone countries since the 1970s including privatization of formerly state owned utilities and infrastructure, deregulation including and especially of the financial sector, hard money monetary policy, cutbacks in universal entitlements of social spending like healthcare and education, and in the US the abandonment of attempts to correct racial injustice and inequality on a societal scale by means of the active intervention of the state icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 11:05
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I'm occasionally given to conspiracy but it looks like a manifestation of raw classism and an aristocratic revanchism aligned against the general population and country itself.
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Nov 27, 2016 11:07
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Accretionist posted:I'm occasionally given to conspiracy but it looks like a manifestation of raw classism and an aristocratic revanchism aligned against the general population and country itself.
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Nov 27, 2016 11:30
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm glad that people give anime porn avatars to people that make them mad now, because the pavlovian effect is that bad opinions get me hard.
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Nov 27, 2016 11:30
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Accretionist posted:I'm occasionally given to conspiracy but it looks like a manifestation of raw classism and an aristocratic revanchism aligned against the general population and country itself. The neoliberal revolution of the 80s was pushed at first by libertarian assholes like Milton Friedman, but then by the 90s the larger mass of bourgeois liberals decided the new order actually suited them pretty well and got on board with it. I don't see elite liberal attachment to the status quo so much as coming from genuine conviction it's a better system as from a cowardly and narrowly self-interested desire to keep the gravy train rolling for themselves and a deep-seated terror of the mob figuring out they're being screwed and coming for revenge icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 11:32
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icantfindaname posted:The neoliberal revolution of the 80s was pushed at first by libertarian assholes like Milton Friedman, but then by the 90s the larger mass of bourgeois liberals decided the new order actually suited them pretty well and got on board with it. I don't see elite liberal attachment to the status quo so much as coming from genuine conviction it's a better system as from a cowardly and narrowly self-interested desire to keep the gravy train rolling for themselves and a deep-seated terror of the mob figuring out they're being screwed and coming for revenge Well, they aren't wrong about the last bit. It's basically how Trump won.
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Nov 27, 2016 11:44
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SeANMcBAY posted:I hope Trump somehow does some good through sheer incompetence.
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Nov 27, 2016 11:57
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NewForumSoftware posted:Well we can just start with what wikipedia has since you seem to be lacking as to any real basic understand. oh my loving god im ded NewForumSoftware posted:So I mean, the Democrats have pursued every single one of those policies at this point over the past 40 years. It's really less the Democrats and more America but whatever, I don't really understand why people get their underwear all twisted about the word. It's amazing how you fall flat on your face but try to keep talking anyway. NewForumSoftware posted:I unironically hope Donald Trump does good things for America It's not a shame. I'm glad that Trump voters are stigmatized for their bad life decisions. They loving should be. I will spin on a dime if Trump succeeds. However we're not a month out and he has already got a loving Nazi as his right-hand man, has AMWAY BITCH as his education secretary, used his presidential status in negotiating a new hotel and hosed up security protocol in worse ways than Hillary ever did. Still hope springs eternal among you third party voters huh? Ignorance is bliss I suppose. Quick question. When Trump has the worst 100 days out of any American president, will you then reconsider your position? Or will you just double down instead? Notorious R.I.M. posted:That's why when Trabisnikof asks if a minimum wage policy is a neoliberal strategy, I follow up by asking if we're talking about the US's minimum wage or Haiti's. After all, if you suppress the minimum wage of a 3rd world country that makes a lot of your garments, those garments stay cheap and no one in America has any visceral connection to all the suffering it causes! Let's stay within the realms of the US. I take your point, it's the only meaningful way I've seen neoliberal critique be used in this thread and its ilk. But if we start viewing every politician in the US through such a global lens, we're never going to get anywhere, you're opening up the discussion too widely. It's ambitious, but will end up being unproductive. Still, you must admit, you can hardly call the democratic party a neo-liberal organization. Yeah it has elements of it, so do Republicans, but it's not neo-liberal in the strict sense of the word. Definitely not qualifying it to be used in the way it is used in this thread. Again, just from simply America-centric view. FactsAreUseless posted:Which is why I have so many of them!!!! poo poo hit me up with one it'll beat this milquetoast crap I have on now
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Nov 27, 2016 11:58
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm glad that people give anime porn avatars to people that make them mad now, because the pavlovian effect is that bad opinions get me hard. Always happy to help !!! quote:On August 23, 1971, prior to accepting Nixon's nomination to the Supreme Court, Powell was commissioned by his neighbor, Eugene B. Sydnor Jr., a close friend and education director of the US Chamber of Commerce, to write a confidential memorandum titled "Attack on the American Free Enterprise System," an anti-Communist, anti-New Deal blueprint for conservative business interests to retake America for the chamber.[13][14] It was based in part on Powell's reaction to the work of activist Ralph Nader, whose 1965 exposé on General Motors, "Unsafe at Any Speed," put a focus on the auto industry putting profit ahead of safety, which triggered the American consumer movement. Powell saw it as an undermining of Americans' faith in enterprise and another step in the slippery slope of socialism.[13] His experiences as a corporate lawyer and a director on the board of Phillip Morris from 1964 until his appointment to the Supreme Court made him a champion of the tobacco industry who railed against the growing scientific evidence linking smoking to cancer deaths.[13] He argued, unsuccessfully, that tobacco companies' First Amendment rights were being infringed when news organizations were not giving credence to the cancer denials of the industry. That was the point where Powell began to focus on the media as biased agents of socialism.[13] Make Aristocracy Great Again:  Edit: Why is it 'out there' to suggest pro-inequality policies reflect the elite aligning around their shared class interests? Look at Russia or any oligarch-dominated country. It's pretty banal and everyday. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Nov 27, 2016 |
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Nov 27, 2016 11:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sVlZ_SaKnk
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Nov 27, 2016 13:47
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm glad that people give anime porn avatars to people that make them mad now, because the pavlovian effect is that bad opinions get me hard. This is the point of D&D, isn't it? A circle jerk of impossibly minded political perverts making each other hard with their twice warmed over takes, seeking that second of feeling in their brain stem when they are technically correct; that moment where their eyes cloud over with dreams of "futa communism now" as they plop words across the screen. 
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Nov 27, 2016 14:36
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https://twitter.com/NickCannon/status/802600217157701633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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Nov 27, 2016 14:42
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foobardog posted:This is the point of D&D, isn't it? A circle jerk of impossibly minded political perverts making each other hard with their twice warmed over takes, seeking that second of feeling in their brain stem when they are technically correct; that moment where their eyes cloud over with dreams of "futa communism now" as they plop words across the screen. We just want to feel that rush when someone empty quotes one of our hot political takes
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Nov 27, 2016 14:46
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