|
Plan Z posted:Or for another example, the case of "Death Traps." Despite Shermans having an above-average crew safety record for tanks in the war, it gets the reputation for getting knocked out a lot, partly due to there being plenty of survivors to tell the tale of a combat loss. Literally the reason Sheridans were popular in 'nam. In Pattons, the crews survived to talk about how horrific getting hit with an RPG was. In a Sheridan they just died, so only people who had nothing go wrong were telling stories about them.
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 22:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 20:06 |
|
|
PittTheElder posted:The second you started listing things I knew this was going to show up. Simultaneously so innocuous and so dangerous a change, it truly is the greatest teaching case study of all. My parents were at that party; my dad was about 30 feet away from the walkway when it crashed down and actually got hit by some debris (he wasn't hurt). My mom was about 6 months pregnant with me at the time and had been on one of the walkways about 30 minutes beforehand so that's how close I was to never existing. Also my ex girlfriend's dad was really close with the guy who was in charge of the rescue efforts; I got to meet him a few years ago. I was fairly recently out of my last stint in Iraq and I'd been through a mass casualty even there so our conversation kind of naturally trended that direction. Needless to say it was one of the more morbid and also interesting conversations I've ever had.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 23:01
|
|
|
spectralent posted:Literally the reason Sheridans were popular in 'nam. In Pattons, the crews survived to talk about how horrific getting hit with an RPG was. In a Sheridan they just died, so only people who had nothing go wrong were telling stories about them. Popular how? Aren't you trained prior to deployment?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 23:34
|
|
|
I'm guessing getting shot with an RPG whilst inside the tank is not part of that training.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 23:39
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
PittTheElder posted:I'm guessing getting shot with an RPG whilst inside the tank is not part of that training. And how does that help the deathtrap become popular among... I don't know who?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 23:49
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:And how does that help the deathtrap become popular among... I don't know who? Because every ride you have in it, that you can talk about, it doesn't explode when hit by firepower. However the times when it does get hit by firepower it detonates, meaning that there is no-one left to tell people how crappy it is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2016 23:55
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Because every ride you have in it, that you can talk about, it doesn't explode when hit by firepower. However the times when it does get hit by firepower it detonates, meaning that there is no-one left to tell people how crappy it is.  WHAT DOES IT MATTER you are told to drive a jeep, you drive a jeep. You don't get to drive a Sheridan just because you think it's more cool.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:07
|
|
|
Vehicles that have surviving crews have people walking around talking about how horrible it was to be in a flaming vehicle of that design, about how the armor failed them, about how it was almost impossible to get out the hatch before cooking to death, about how the dead commander prevented the driver from climbing out so he burned to death, etc. That can help a vehicle get a reputation as a death trap. "Popular" just means "thought well of by other people" - it doesn't imply that anyone has any choice in what they're riding in.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:11
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:
Is that how it is in the Finnish army? That sounds awful. I think they just mean popular in terms of reputation, not in terms of actual use.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:12
|
|
|
I just fail to see the use of such metric. Automatic weapons were popular in WW2, but unless you were issued one then what would you do? Ditch your boltlock rifle? Or go back to basic training and wish better luck? Also I would like to see some poll that shows Sheridan being popular.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:26
|
|
|
Yes, why would anyone interested in military history care if soldiers liked a thing or not?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:31
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:I just fail to see the use of such metric. Automatic weapons were popular in WW2, but unless you were issued one then what would you do? Ditch your boltlock rifle? Or go back to basic training and wish better luck? It's Wikipedia, but: quote:Like the M50 Ontos anti-tank vehicle, the battle reports from the troops were sometimes glowing, while the reports higher up the chain of command were often negative. This was largely due to the high casualty rate of both Sheridans and their crews as mines and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) that would only damage an M48 Patton tank, would destroy the Sheridan and kill or wound most, if not all, of its crew.[12]
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:40
|
|
|
Sort of related: in a collection of Korean War operational research reports I read there was a note about how there was an opinion that recoilless rifles kicked up too much dust with the backblast and revealed the shooter's position, resulting in the rifles not being used. Upon further questioning it turned out that the only soldiers who thought that were from units where the recoilless rifles were never used.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:43
|
|
|
Ensign Expendable posted:Sort of related: in a collection of Korean War operational research reports I read there was a note about how there was an opinion that recoilless rifles kicked up too much dust with the backblast and revealed the shooter's position, resulting in the rifles not being used. Upon further questioning it turned out that the only soldiers who thought that were from units where the recoilless rifles were never used. Lol it's like the blood groove myth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:49
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:WHAT DOES IT MATTER you are told to drive a jeep, you drive a jeep. You don't get to drive a Sheridan just because you think it's more cool. If you're told to drive a jeep, that just means you have to collect 5 roadkill ribbons, then you unlock your Tank.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:49
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:The second you started listing things I knew this was going to show up. Simultaneously so innocuous and so dangerous a change, it truly is the greatest teaching case study of all. Somehow, the most terrifying part of this to me was the thought of being someone found by rescuers, only to be told "I'm sorry, but you're going to die" and given morphine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 00:58
|
|
|
spectralent posted:It's Wikipedia, but: Well that makes sense. Apologies for causing a derail.  I got hung on the popularity bit, not connecting the dots.agreed, all of the vehicles that you named other than Patton were well suited for the theater, and Gavin had versatility beyond imagination vvv Nenonen fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:08
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:I just fail to see the use of such metric. Automatic weapons were popular in WW2, but unless you were issued one then what would you do? Ditch your boltlock rifle? Or go back to basic training and wish better luck? It was situationally well-liked. It could go places Pattons couldn't which meant yay fire support and cover, and a 152mm cannon and two MGs beats the hell out of a Gavin with a machine gun. Same deal with the Ontos or Duster in Vietnam. A light vehicle with good firepower where there normally was nothing better or at all is appreciated. But yeah, Sheridan crews pretty much universally hated the godforsaken thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:08
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Hey, I am currently reading through "The Big Book of X Bombers and X Fighters" by Steve Pace. It had a lot of recommendations for being thorough if a little stiffly written, and so far it's impressive. If you're looking for what's basically a deadpan recounting of the USAAF/USAF making their way into the jet age (turns out Bell was slapping together jet fighter airframes on a prototype basis before D-Day and Lockheed was trying to make a flying wing happen since the 40s) it's pretty good and full of spec sheets and illustrations. I have the Kindle edition which I'm rapidly finding does not do the work justice. Thanks for this post, the hardcover was on special $25 on Amazon, ordered.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:09
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Survivor bias is a very real issue in history. All those cool stories we have come from the people who e everything went right for. This is something I hammer on when I teach the Holocaust. A lot of survivor stories sound ludicrously implausible. Someone survives the round up because they're walking home on a different route than they do every day, then the only farmer in Poland who is ok with Jews hides them for a few months, then they get captured and get slotted for a work camp arbitrarily, then they get assigned to a good work detail, them they get sick at precisely the right time to miss out on the death march when the Red Army gets too close - any earlier and they would have ended up in the ovens. I knew an old teacher who survived the roundup of Jews in Budapest because, IIRC, he had come down with scarlet fever and was quarantined. I guess the Nazis and the Hungarian fascists in charge of the part of Budapest where he lived didn't give enough of a gently caress about the Final Solution to risk getting really drat sick for the sake of one teenager. Well What Now fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Nov 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:13
|
|
|
Plan Z posted:Gs beats the hell out of a Gavin Dont call it that. Don't let him win.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 01:54
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Dont call it that. Okay. There needs to be a term that describes "ironic" behavior turning around on you. Call it the 4chan Constant or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 03:05
|
|
|
Plan Z posted:Okay. There needs to be a term that describes "ironic" behavior turning around on you. Call it the 4chan Constant or something. Honestly I'd call it ironic inevitability.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 03:21
|
|
|
The Gavin is the 2nd coolest armored vehicle in history, after the Longstreet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 03:29
|
|
|
Well What Now posted:I knew an old teacher who survived the roundup of Jews in Budapest because, IIRC, he had come down with scarlet fever and was quarantined. I guess the Nazis and the Hungarian fascists in charge of the part of Budapest where he lived didn't give enough of a gently caress about the Final Solution to risk getting really drat sick for the sake of one teenager. I could have sworn I heard a story once about some doctors saving a Jewish community by faking a TB outbreak. (And I just found out it's impossible to get a useful result from google when your search terms include both "holocaust" and "fake.")
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 03:56
|
|
|
I thought it was Typhus. \/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Lazowski Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Nov 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 04:09
|
|
|
Saint Celestine posted:I thought it was Typhus. That does ring a bell now that you say it. e:/\Thanks! P-Mack fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Nov 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 04:12
|
|
|
LostCosmonaut posted:The Gavin is the 2nd coolest armored vehicle in history, after the Longstreet. I've actually started to forget sometimes that it's not really called a Gavin.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 04:19
|
|
|
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...kFJaFdoWDJVT253 Can anyone translate Czech for me?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 04:48
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:I've actually started to forget sometimes that it's not really called a Gavin. It's called a Track, at least that's what the guys in my dad's unit called it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 05:25
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Hey, I am currently reading through "The Big Book of X Bombers and X Fighters" by Steve Pace. It had a lot of recommendations for being thorough if a little stiffly written, and so far it's impressive. If you're looking for what's basically a deadpan recounting of the USAAF/USAF making their way into the jet age (turns out Bell was slapping together jet fighter airframes on a prototype basis before D-Day and Lockheed was trying to make a flying wing happen since the 40s) it's pretty good and full of spec sheets and illustrations. I have the Kindle edition which I'm rapidly finding does not do the work justice. The Flapjack is still one of the ugliest planes in history, imo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 05:59
|
|
|
LostCosmonaut posted:The Gavin is the 2nd coolest armored vehicle in history, after the Longstreet. I dunno, maybe after the T-34 "Pyotr"
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 06:35
|
|
|
Hi thread. In two weeks I'm going to Berlin for four days. Can anyone recommend any interesting historical stuff to see in and around Berlin? Already been to the historical museum, and I'm probably going to Potsdam.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 10:10
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:Already been to the historical museum, and I'm probably going to Potsdam. While there, appreciate the fact that backwards it's Mad Stop.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 10:24
|
|
|
honestly, apart from the museums where there is a 3 hour line to get in every day, the museums there disappointed me
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 12:50
|
|
|
Theres a great little Eastern Berlin museum near the river thats quite small but worth a look in. http://www.ddr-museum.de/en, the Palace of tears is less good but still not bad and covers a similar topic, http://www.visitberlin.de/en/spot/traenenpalast-palace-of-tears. Though i have a cold war hardon so this may color my view slightly, i find life behind the iron curtain perhaps unduly fascinating. The museum of technology is at the end of one of the metro lines and its also quite good, http://www.sdtb.de/Englisch.55.0.html. I havent been to Topography of Terror but i understand from a mate who just got back that its good if harrowing, http://www.topographie.de/en/exhibitions/.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 13:01
|
|
|
Polyakov posted:Theres a great little Eastern Berlin museum near the river thats quite small but worth a look in. http://www.ddr-museum.de/en, the Palace of tears is less good but still not bad and covers a similar topic, http://www.visitberlin.de/en/spot/traenenpalast-palace-of-tears. Though i have a cold war hardon so this may color my view slightly, i find life behind the iron curtain perhaps unduly fascinating. Aw man, I love/hate that museum, their simulation of getting disappeared into a jail cell has stuck with me ever since.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 13:36
|
|
|
Polyakov posted:Theres a great little Eastern Berlin museum near the river thats quite small but worth a look in. http://www.ddr-museum.de/en, the Palace of tears is less good but still not bad and covers a similar topic, http://www.visitberlin.de/en/spot/traenenpalast-palace-of-tears. Though i have a cold war hardon so this may color my view slightly, i find life behind the iron curtain perhaps unduly fascinating. Thanks! I'll look it up, I've been to to the topography of terror and DDR museum already. Is the Russian-German museum in karlshorst worth a visit? What about historical towns in the state? Havelberg has an awesome cathedral, and Brandenburg an der Havel seems nice, but are they worth the trip in this case?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 13:52
|
|
|
Tias posted:Aw man, I love/hate that museum, their simulation of getting disappeared into a jail cell has stuck with me ever since. The Imperial War Museum has something similar for their holocaust exhibit: for the train section you're sort of herded into a room the shape of a small train car, there are no lights so you have to get close and squint to read anything and there's a horrible claustrophobic sense of dread. I highly recommend it if anyone is in London, it was phenomenal and also soul wrenching all at once.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 13:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 20:06 |
|
|
CoolCab posted:The Imperial War Museum has something similar for their holocaust exhibit: for the train section you're sort of herded into a room the shape of a small train car, there are no lights so you have to get close and squint to read anything and there's a horrible claustrophobic sense of dread. I highly recommend it if anyone is in London, it was phenomenal and also soul wrenching all at once. alternatively, simply board a regular picadilly line service
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2016 14:00
|
|
