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Ogmius815 posted:Why does the institutional racism underlying the new deal mean that "the new new deal" can't be designed not to be institutionally racist? It doesn't. It is an explanation why communities that have been left out in the past aren't extending extra trust when new proposals for economic justice are made but they are mostly silent on racial/gender/etc economic justice. If someone proposed a New New Deal that clearly includes traditionally marginalized groups, that's a whole different narrative.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:06
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Black Baby Goku posted:Your time is over. Let's have some different opinions now.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:06
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Fidel Castronaut posted:If you want people to focus on class and you want to avoid being called a racist, a good way to do that would be to discuss class and stop discussing race. That's a free tip on the house, buckaroo. Islam isn't a race, buckaroo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2016 02:06
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the black husserl posted:Lmao "your time is over" are you like cackling with evil glee right now People like you and your ideas are why Donald Trump is president.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:07
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LGD posted:No, because that sort of economic populism hasn't really been a thing in American politics for a long time. It's akin to worrying that pursuing feminist causes will hurt anti-racism because early feminists were quite happy to ally themselves with white supremacists when they thought it would advance their agenda. Considering that modern feminism still has huge issues with intersectionality and focus on upper-middle class white women issues I'd say this is a weird argument. Black Baby Goku posted:Yeah that's a great idea! Let's run people because they are a minority lol. Christ.... Diversity in representation is a good thing. It also serves a strategic electoral purpose I explicitly laid out for you. Count on a racist to hate the idea of running minorities for office tho.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:07
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Do different religions encourage different levels of dogmatic belief? Uhoh everyone in this religion slapfight trying to ignore the question that would make them have to teeter around contradictions if they answered.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:07
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Lightning Knight posted:Trust and credibility matter. Hillary didn't have credibility with white working class people. Bernie didn't have it with minority voters. Obama drew both. Hence my argument. So basically we need another Obama, but an actual leftist this time
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Nov 29, 2016 02:07
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Guy Goodbody posted:So basically we need another Obama, but an actual leftist this time Well, perhaps. More pertinently, we need to run more people like Obama - with an emphasis on young and charismatic - at the state and local levels too. National politics only has been an abysmal strategy.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:09
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Fighting for the rights of working class people is probably one of the most right-wing concepts I can think of. Fly away, troll.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:10
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You don't need a leftist, you need someone charismatic. Everyone seems confused as to what the Obama magic trick is and it has less to do with his policies and more to do with the fact that he's one of the most charismatic Presidents in living memory and he easily electrifies people.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:10
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acting like there is some inherent opposition between class and race is stupid as gently caress the black harvard professor who got the cops called on him becuse his neighbor thought a criminal was breaking into a house wasnt will not be saved by his education, job or money the white guy who can only get a part time job at wal mart will not be saved from dying of a preventable illness he cant afford to treat by his whiteness or maleness fixing these things will require different solutions, but not ones that are in opposition also claiming that compromises fdr made with racist southern legislators in the 1930s is why we cant have economic justice in 2016 isnt the most convincing thing in the world, the new deal coalition has been dead for a while now, as have its architects and most of the people who voted for it
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Nov 29, 2016 02:11
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Lightning Knight posted:Well, perhaps. More pertinently, we need to run more people like Obama - with an emphasis on young and charismatic - at the state and local levels too. National politics only has been an abysmal strategy. Actually we need people with more experience in Washington.... I think a really good idea would also be to have Lena Dunham speak at their events and make promotional videos for them.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:11
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Black Baby Goku posted:Islam isn't a race, buckaroo.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:11
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Fojar38 posted:You don't need a leftist, you need someone charismatic. Everyone seems confused as to what the Obama magic trick is and it has less to do with his policies and more to do with the fact that he's one of the most charismatic Presidents in living memory and he easily electrifies people. The right will always win because of this btw.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:12
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Lightning Knight posted:Considering that modern feminism still has huge issues with intersectionality and focus on upper-middle class white women issues I'd say this is a weird argument. Oh I agree. But would you say that advancing feminist causes is in opposition to racial justice? Do you have people arguing that we can't be expected to focus on serious feminist issues until we've addressed the racial divisions in this country? No, because they're generally seen as part of a universal movement towards social fairness/equality. Yet similar arguments are frequently deployed to dismiss calls for economic fairness, a social issue that has been worsening for decades and goes hand in hand with allowing people to practically exercise their other rights.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:12
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Fojar38 posted:You don't need a leftist, you need someone charismatic. Everyone seems confused as to what the Obama magic trick is and it has less to do with his policies and more to do with the fact that he's one of the most charismatic Presidents in living memory and he easily electrifies people.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:14
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Swan Oat posted:acting like there is some inherent opposition between class and race is stupid as gently caress This isn't the argument at all and that it keeps being misrepresented as such is dumb. It's not about the politics or policies and it's not about historical failures thereof. It's about who's in charge and who voters will trust to do right by them. If we're going to have a discussion about how the Democratic Party only pays lip service to minority rights one of the big parts of that is a lack of representation in party leadership of minorities.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:14
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Well class and racial division seems to be growing at a breakneck pace, but did you see Obama make a meme macro and dance to the latest top 40 hit on Jimmy Fallon last night? Now THERES some Change I Can Believe In™
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Nov 29, 2016 02:13
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Black Baby Goku posted:Yeah that's a great idea! Let's run people because they are a minority lol. Christ.... Why not? It's politics. We just had a young, passionate minority president for 8 years who will leave office with one of the highest approval ratings in history. It's not an insane suggestion that encouraging more young, passionate minorities to take leadership roles in the party might be a winning strategy.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:14
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Black Baby Goku posted:People like you and your ideas are why Donald Trump is president. Plus we're dissolving into post-fact nonsense and Trump's branding and marketing was so much better than Hillary's. Dude had paid Russian trolls and tweetbot networks promoting anti-Hillary poo poo on Facebook! That's the exact poo poo marketers do and it works amazingly. Doing the dab can't compete with that.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:15
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LGD posted:Oh I agree. I don't think that feminism stands in opposition to racial justice. I do think that POC should be distrustful of a movement overwhelmingly led by white people focusing on white issues and its desire to address racial justice as well. The Democratic Party has failed on every level of representation and vision. We should be a party with visible minority leadership and predominantly younger candidates and instead it's a party led by old white people, mostly men.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:16
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Economic justice necessarily requires racial, sexual, and LGBT-oriented justice.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:18
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Lightning Knight posted:This isn't the argument at all and that it keeps being misrepresented as such is dumb. It's not about the politics or policies and it's not about historical failures thereof. It's about who's in charge and who voters will trust to do right by them. If we're going to have a discussion about how the Democratic Party only pays lip service to minority rights one of the big parts of that is a lack of representation in party leadership of minorities. focusing on representation at the expense of actual good ideas is whats going to get cory booker to get owned in the 2020 presidential election lol
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Nov 29, 2016 02:18
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Swan Oat posted:focusing on representation at the expense of actual good ideas is whats going to get cory booker to get owned in the 2020 presidential election lol And here I will flip the table on you: why do you assume representation stands in opposition to competence? Are we going to assume that all the competent candidates are white dudes, or consider that maybe there's a lot of young, engaged minority Americans who would love to lead and run but no one will give them a chance?
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Nov 29, 2016 02:20
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FactsAreUseless posted:People say this all the time, but this argument requires either 1. actual ignorance of cultural context or 2. a genuine unwillingness to see it. Discussion of Islam in the U.S. is inherently tied, culturally, to discussion of race. When people think "Islam" they think about Middle Eastern immigrants. Hate crimes have been directed against Middle Eastern people of many religions, in particular Sikhs, because they were mistaken for Muslims. Criticism of Islam - which absolutely happens in Muslim communities, believe me - is inextricably linked in the U.S. to racism and xenophobia, in a way that other religions aren't. People don't use criticism of Christianity as a cover to attack white people. People aren't shooting up Lutheran churches because they were mistaken for Mormons. Just because some people use criticism of Islam as a cover for racism doesnt mean we can no longer criticize it ever. I dont want people to be rounded up or harassed because they are Muslim, but I still think a magic wizard that tells people to stone gays and adulterous women to death is a pretty fuckin dumb idea to have in 2016
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Nov 29, 2016 02:21
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FactsAreUseless posted:People say this all the time, but this argument requires either 1. actual ignorance of cultural context or 2. a genuine unwillingness to see it. Discussion of Islam in the U.S. is inherently tied, culturally, to discussion of race. When people think "Islam" they think about Middle Eastern immigrants. Hate crimes have been directed against Middle Eastern people of many religions, in particular Sikhs, because they were mistaken for Muslims. Criticism of Islam - which absolutely happens in Muslim communities, believe me - is inextricably linked in the U.S. to racism and xenophobia, in a way that other religions aren't. People don't use criticism of Christianity as a cover to attack white people. People aren't shooting up Lutheran churches because they were mistaken for Mormons. "Islam isn't a race" is the new "I'm not racist, but . . ." It's an instant giveaway that the next thing that drops out of the speaker's mouth is going to be either massively ignorant, stupefyingly bigoted, or both.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:21
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sd6 posted:Just because some people use criticism of Islam as a cover for racism doesnt mean we can no longer criticize it ever. I dont want people to be rounded up or harassed because they are Muslim, but I still think a magic wizard that tells people to stone gays and adulterous women to death is a pretty fuckin dumb idea to have in 2016
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Nov 29, 2016 02:22
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sd6 posted:Just because some people use criticism of Islam as a cover for racism doesnt mean we can no longer criticize it ever. I dont want people to be rounded up or harassed because they are Muslim, but I still think a magic wizard that tells people to stone gays and adulterous women to death is a pretty fuckin dumb idea to have in 2016 And yet attempts to impose secular democracy from without have caused massive damage. The problem isn't that Islam couldn't secularize like Christianity has, it's that we keep poking it with a stick and throwing rocks at it so they get mad and throw rocks back and we wonder why they're so uncivilized.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:23
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Lightning Knight posted:And here I will flip the table on you: why do you assume representation stands in opposition to competence? Are we going to assume that all the competent candidates are white dudes, or consider that maybe there's a lot of young, engaged minority Americans who would love to lead and run but no one will give them a chance? i dont, actually, think that representation and competence are mutally exclusive
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Nov 29, 2016 02:24
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If he's still alive in 4 years the Dems should run Jimmy Carter.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:24
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Black Baby Goku posted:Islam isn't a race, buckaroo. That's semantics and is irrelevant because the people calling you a racist think that Islam is a race, so if you actually want to avoid being called a racist (justifiably or not) and want class to be the major topic, then talk about class and stop talking about Islam/race/other identities. Seriously, you talk about talking about class. That's what you do in regards to class. The majority of what you do is talk about identity. So, um, stop doing that or quit whining about being "misunderstood."
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Nov 29, 2016 02:24
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It's especially important because if you want to see meaningful reforms within Islam, you need Islamic reformers on your side. There are plenty of people within Muslim communities who have criticisms, and they're excluded both by American conservatives and by Muslim ones, since one of the fundamental opinions those two groups share is that Islam is unchangeable and that all Muslims act the same.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:25
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sd6 posted:Just because some people use criticism of Islam as a cover for racism doesnt mean we can no longer criticize it ever. I dont want people to be rounded up or harassed because they are Muslim, but I still think a magic wizard that tells people to stone gays and adulterous women to death is a pretty fuckin dumb idea to have in 2016 I'm not sure the concept of "criticizing Islam" is even coherent. There are too many different strains and sects and schools. Sunnis are not Shia are not (necessarily) Sufi. It's intellectual valid to criticize specific practices or interpretations sure, but what does a general criticism of "Islam" even mean? It's just an intellectually lazy generalization and like most such generalizations fundamentally wrongheaded. I mean, example: you could write a coherent critique of, say, Prosperity Gospel evangelical Christians, or Mormons, or orthodox catholics, but a generalized critique that applied to them all wouldn't have much worthwhile to say because they're all fundamentally different in terms of morals, ethics, etc. They don't have philosophy or beliefs in common so much as they have common branding. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 02:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure the concept of "criticizing Islam" is even coherent. There are too many different strains and sects and schools. Sunnis are not Shia are not (necessarily) Sufi. It's intellectual valid to criticize specific practices or interpretations sure, but what does a general criticism of "Islam" even mean? It's just an intellectually lazy generalization and like most such generalizations fundamentally wrongheaded.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:26
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sd6 posted:Just because some people use criticism of Islam as a cover for racism doesnt mean we can no longer criticize it ever. I dont want people to be rounded up or harassed because they are Muslim, but I still think a magic wizard that tells people to stone gays and adulterous women to death is a pretty fuckin dumb idea to have in 2016 If that's your issue with Islam, you might be upset to learn that a breathtaking number of red state christians think this way, which is inarguably a much more pressing concern.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:27
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Swan Oat posted:i dont, actually, think that representation and competence are mutally exclusive So why would it be a bad thing to seek out and endorse qualified minority candidates and give them a chance? Ellison or Perez would both be awesome choices precisely because they're qualified minority candidates who could balance social and economic justice and be trusted by both parties.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:26
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If you want economic populist programs put into place by a future administration, you need the president to believe in economic populism. The whole point of it is that Obama, while checking a lot of demographic boxes and being very charming and charismatic, was not an economic populist.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:28
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sd6 posted:I dont want people to be rounded up or harassed because they are Muslim, but I still think a magic wizard that tells people to stone gays and adulterous women to death is a pretty fuckin dumb idea to have in 2016 Um....this is pretty common in Christian Red States too.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:28
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cheese posted:If you want economic populist programs put into place by a future administration, you need the president to believe in economic populism. The whole point of it is that Obama, while checking a lot of demographic boxes and being very charming and charismatic, was not an economic populist.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:29
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Lightning Knight posted:So why would it be a bad thing to seek out and endorse qualified minority candidates and give them a chance? Ellison or Perez would both be awesome choices precisely because they're qualified minority candidates who could balance social and economic justice and be trusted by both parties. Ellison chairing the DNC would continue to force the right to confront its own xenophobia, and the result would be very, very ugly. Which is part of why I think he's the right person for the job.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:30
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