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cheese posted:If you want economic populist programs put into place by a future administration, you need the president to believe in economic populism. The whole point of it is that Obama, while checking a lot of demographic boxes and being very charming and charismatic, was not an economic populist. True, which is why I don't think we should sit around and wait for another Obama. If we want good candidates we need to either run ourselves or find somebody who is qualified and push them. White male progressives have a lot of power in this regard because people listen more to white men. Instead of snapping up all of the leadership we could help minorities with less chances at leadership move up the ranks and diversify the viewpoints in the party.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:31
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:If that's your issue with Islam, you might be upset to learn that a breathtaking number of red state christians think this way, which is inarguably a much more pressing concern. CommieGIR posted:Um....this is pretty common in Christian Red States too. Do the governments of 'Christian Red States' frequently execute homosexuals and 'adulterers' via beheading
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Nov 29, 2016 02:32
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FactsAreUseless posted:Barack Obama also moved notably rightward after his election, and when I say that I mean that rather than surround himself with the people he was expected to, such as the many young liberals on his campaign team, his White House consisted of a lot of party faithful and old members of the Clinton White House, in much the same way that W. Bush had a lot of members of the first Bush and Reagan administrations on his team. I still remember the moment I found out he'd chosen Timothy Geitner as treasury secretary. Was my first "oh poo poo, yup, he's turning right like we thought he would" moment. That said he'd always used vague language during the campaign that forecast the possibility of a rightward turn. It wasn't a complete surprise.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure the concept of "criticizing Islam" is even coherent. There are too many different strains and sects and schools. Sunnis are not Shia are not (necessarily) Sufi. It's intellectual valid to criticize specific practices or interpretations sure, but what does a general criticism of "Islam" even mean? It's just an intellectually lazy generalization and like most such generalizations fundamentally wrongheaded. This is a lazy argument because the actual ideological differences between these sects is almost negligible.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:35
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think that feminism stands in opposition to racial justice. I do think that POC should be distrustful of a movement overwhelmingly led by white people focusing on white issues and its desire to address racial justice as well. The Democratic Party has failed on every level of representation and vision. We should be a party with visible minority leadership and predominantly younger candidates and instead it's a party led by old white people, mostly men. Ok great, but you go to war with the army you have, and it's not an argument against refocusing the Democratic party's message to focus far more heavily on economic issues. I mean you're already trying to replace the current leadership with a new generation of competent and representative people, so refocusing the message would seem to work hand-in-hand with it. And there's very little reason to care about representation if all that means is a bunch of old white bloodsucking plutocrats is replaced with a hot young group of bloodsucking plutocrats that look like the attractive, racially diverse, and unthreatening cast of a CW show.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:38
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:If that's your issue with Islam, you might be upset to learn that a breathtaking number of red state christians think this way, which is inarguably a much more pressing concern. This always comes up when there is a criticism of Islam, "but Christianity!". Yes, Christianity is dumb too and there are Christians with abhorrent ideas. That doesn't change the fact that theres also a lot of Muslims with really dumb ideas that should also be criticized. Im also not sure I would say Christians are inarguably a more pressing concern given the amount of Islamic terrorism out there
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Nov 29, 2016 02:39
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Lightning Knight posted:So why would it be a bad thing to seek out and endorse qualified minority candidates and give them a chance? Ellison or Perez would both be awesome choices precisely because they're qualified minority candidates who could balance social and economic justice and be trusted by both parties. i never said this would be bad, in any post, although i do suspect that the rapid capitulation of every lovely establishment dem to ellison being in charge of hte dnc indicates that he wont actually be allowed to accomplish very much
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Nov 29, 2016 02:40
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sd6 posted:This always comes up when there is a criticism of Islam, "but Christianity!". Yes, Christianity is dumb too and there are Christians with abhorrent ideas. That doesn't change the fact that theres also a lot of Muslims with really dumb ideas that should also be criticized. Im also not sure I would say Christians are inarguably a more pressing concern given the amount of Islamic terrorism out there What's more likely to affect you as an American: 1. Islamic Terrorism 2. Living in a state with a fundamentalist Christian governor?
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Nov 29, 2016 02:46
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*nvm, doublepost due to forums error*
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Nov 29, 2016 02:53
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Nov 29, 2016 02:53
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LGD posted:Ok great, but you go to war with the army you have, and it's not an argument against refocusing the Democratic party's message to focus far more heavily on economic issues. I mean you're already trying to replace the current leadership with a new generation of competent and representative people, so refocusing the message would seem to work hand-in-hand with it. And there's very little reason to care about representation if all that means is a bunch of old white bloodsucking plutocrats is replaced with a hot young group of bloodsucking plutocrats that look like the attractive, racially diverse, and unthreatening cast of a CW show. I find it strange how quick we are to dismiss how important feeling represented is. Also we're in the minority in our dislike for Obama's policy. The vast majority of Democrats, and a majority of the country in general, admire and respect him. Dismissing representation as "you just want more women CEOs to oppress us" as the common example, is an example of trivializing minority issues. They care greatly about actually being able to vote for someone like them. And we're talking about the Democratic Party, not a corporate board room. Swan Oat posted:i never said this would be bad, in any post, although i do suspect that the rapid capitulation of every lovely establishment dem to ellison being in charge of hte dnc indicates that he wont actually be allowed to accomplish very much That's what they did to Michael Steele too. I mean frankly I'm a pessimist. I think we're doomed. But if you care you might as well try, no? Dr. Fishopolis posted:What's more likely to affect you as an American: More to the point, radical Islamic extremists have killed a few hundred in America and thousands abroad. Radical Christian extremists in the form of the Bush Adminstration killed orders of magnitude more in their dumb wars abroad. Remember, Bush unironically thought invading Iraq was part of some dumb Christian end times prophecy.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:54
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cravius posted:This is a lazy argument because the actual ideological differences between these sects is almost negligible. Please, do tell.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:54
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Lumpy the Cook posted:Do the governments of 'Christian Red States' frequently execute homosexuals and 'adulterers' via beheading No, because a "tyrannical and overreaching" Federal government keeps them from being able to act however they want. "The government is too big!" is a catch-all phrase that nowadays includes a not-insignificant amount of people who would drag us back to the 1800s (or earlier!) if they could.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:55
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:What's more likely to affect you as an American: wew boy you almost got me on this one, but seriously having mods and admins of the forum lay out rules for off limits terms for criticizing stuff weird to anyone else?
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Nov 29, 2016 02:55
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:What's more likely to affect you as an American: To affect me in any way at all? The second one. To kill me or blow my limbs off? The first. Radical Christians are lovely, but they are not on the same level as radical Muslims in the modern world. That is a false equivalence.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:56
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cravius posted:This is a lazy argument because the actual ideological differences between these sects is almost negligible. It's more accurate to point out that most criticisms of Islam are directed toward fundamentalism, and wahhabism specifically. Islam isn't a unified whole, and it's racist as gently caress to paint 1.6 billion people with the same brush.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:55
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Mnoba posted:wew boy you almost got me on this one, but seriously having mods and admins of the forum lay out rules for off limits terms for criticizing stuff weird to anyone else? what the gently caress are you talking about
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Nov 29, 2016 02:56
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sd6 posted:To affect me in any way at all? The second one. To kill me or blow my limbs off? The first. Radical Christians are lovely, but they are not on the same level as radical Muslims in the modern world. That is a false equivalence. Radical Christian ideology was a part of what drove us into Iraq and what drives such rabid support for the Israeli government in America. I would argue they're worse.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:57
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The belief that homosexual and adultery should be punished with death is not "pretty common" in red states, you psychos.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:57
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sd6 posted:To affect me in any way at all? The second one. To kill me or blow my limbs off? The first. Radical Christians are lovely, but they are not on the same level as radical Muslims in the modern world. That is a false equivalence. You are as likely to be killed by your own furniture as killed in a terrorist attack.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:57
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Guy Goodbody posted:The belief that homosexual and adultery should be punished with death is not "pretty common" in red states, you psychos. That is true. But conversion therapy and the suicide rates of LGBTQ teens in the US has more to do with fundamentalist Christianity than radical Islam. Therefore, for our population, one is a greater concern.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:58
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Lumpy the Cook posted:Do the governments of 'Christian Red States' frequently execute homosexuals and 'adulterers' via beheading In living memory, yes. Of course we preferred to use hanging to beheading. We also like to pretend that when the sheriff puts on a hood he stops being a lawman.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:58
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Guy Goodbody posted:The belief that homosexual and adultery should be punished with death is not "pretty common" in red states, you psychos. It is common to the degree that it is not a statistical blip. It is not pretty common, but it is something that should be "0 out of a thousand", not "ten out of a thousand"
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Nov 29, 2016 02:58
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You are as likely to be killed by your own furniture as killed in a terrorist attack. That doesn't do much to confront the issue.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:59
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Black Baby Goku posted:That doesn't do much to confront the issue. He should probably burn all of his furniture, just to be sure.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:what the gently caress are you talking about oh you are serious? I grew up in Columbus and have family there now, one working at OSU and asking that today is pretty stupid.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:59
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Mnoba posted:oh you are serious? I grew up in Columbus and have family there now, one working at OSU and asking that today is pretty stupid. No, really, what the gently caress are you talking about? You are all over the place. What does a connection to Columbus have to do with "off-limit terms"? Black Baby Goku posted:That doesn't do much to confront the issue. You're right, it does not confront the real issue, which is class, which is something you still aren't loving talking about despite schooling us on its importance above all else.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:02
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Mnoba posted:oh you are serious? I grew up in Columbus and have family there now, one working at OSU and asking that today is pretty stupid. I wasn't referring to any specific incident. I'm genuinely sorry if I upset you.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:03
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You are as likely to be killed by your own furniture as killed in a terrorist attack. You are correct, not disputing that. But if I were to be one of the unlucky few Americans who gets killed by radical religious extremism, I'd be willing to bet a lot more money on it being a radical Muslim than a radical Christian.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:03
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Black Baby Goku posted:That doesn't do much to confront the issue. Well it sounds like it's really not that much of an issue so maybe it's under control.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:04
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sd6 posted:You are correct, not disputing that. But if I were to be one of the unlucky few Americans who gets killed by radical religious extremism, I'd be willing to bet a lot more money on it being a radical Muslim than a radical Christian. Unless you work in an abortion clinic.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:04
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Lightning Knight posted:Radical Christian ideology was a part of what drove us into Iraq and what drives such rabid support for the Israeli government in America. I would argue they're worse. I'm pretty sure this had a lot more to do with enriching weapons contractors with connections in the administration than a Christian holy mission.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:05
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Black Baby Goku posted:That doesn't do much to confront the issue. Exactly. Terrorism sucks, but if you're concerned about fundamentalism the obvious first concern should be the people who have actual power over your circumstances.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:06
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sd6 posted:You are correct, not disputing that. But if I were to be one of the unlucky few Americans who gets killed by radical religious extremism, I'd be willing to bet a lot more money on it being a radical Muslim than a radical Christian. I would love to see you do the work for this. I would definitely bet you money that, if I were to be one of the unlucky Americans who get stomped for being a queer, it would be more likely that a Christian foot would be breaking my nose. sd6 posted:I'm pretty sure this had a lot more to do with enriching weapons contractors with connections in the administration than a Christian holy mission. That might have been the motivation for initiating it but the support had a lot to do with Evangelicalism being at its height in the early 2000s. Jesus loved our troops!
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Nov 29, 2016 03:07
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Lightning Knight posted:I find it strange how quick we are to dismiss how important feeling represented is. Also we're in the minority in our dislike for Obama's policy. The vast majority of Democrats, and a majority of the country in general, admire and respect him. Dismissing representation as "you just want more women CEOs to oppress us" as the common example, is an example of trivializing minority issues. They care greatly about actually being able to vote for someone like them. And we're talking about the Democratic Party, not a corporate board room And here I will flip the table on you: why do you assume representation stands in opposition to competence/good policy? Less flippantly- I imagine this is genuinely huge on an emotional level and good for turnout among the represented group. But outside of that group I strongly doubt anyone would ever care enough to have it make a significant difference in anyone's behavior and minorities are by definition minorities. Representation is awesome but it's not a substitute for a compelling political message that transcends narrow categories. E: And honestly the implication that admiration for Obama among the population at large is primarily rooted in him being "representative" rather than his personal qualities and achievements seems really wrongheaded. LGD fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 03:07
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sd6 posted:I'm pretty sure this had a lot more to do with enriching weapons contractors with connections in the administration than a Christian holy mission. Gog and Magog were at work!
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Nov 29, 2016 03:08
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Trabisnikof posted:Unless you work in an abortion clinic. It's also worth noting that Calvinism has been pretty popular among the religious right in America for like...ever. The evangelical right also has an unholy alliance with the super rich in America. You don't need to literally pull the trigger or set off a bomb to kill somebody. This is a political movement that thinks that if you can't find a job you should just go loving starve to death. Medical assistance for non-wealthy people is already in the crosshairs. At this point having a red state governor may very well get you killed. Hey, you stepped off the curb and got hit by a bus and now you can't work? Welp, there goes your insurance! Hope you had enough savings to pay for your surgeries so you can walk again. Oh, you don't have enough? Lol sucks to be you!
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Nov 29, 2016 03:09
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Trabisnikof posted:Gog and Magog were at work! For those who don't remember: quote:Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East.... The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled.... This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”
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Nov 29, 2016 03:10
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sd6 posted:You are correct, not disputing that. But if I were to be one of the unlucky few Americans who gets killed by radical religious extremism, I'd be willing to bet a lot more money on it being a radical Muslim than a radical Christian. The vast majority of terrorism in America is not carried out by Muslims. http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/06/muslim.radicalization.study/ https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005#terror_05sum
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Nov 29, 2016 03:10
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sd6 posted:I'm pretty sure this had a lot more to do with enriching weapons contractors with connections in the administration than a Christian holy mission. Bush literally believed that invading Iraq was part of fulfilling a religious prophecy. Cheney was all about that mad cash but Bush is a legit crazy fundamentalist. LGD posted:And here I will flip the table on you: why do you assume representation stands in opposition to competence/good policy? Minorities aren't by definition minorities. Women are a majority of the population. They're also a disproportionately large part of our - meaning the Democratic Party - electorate and I'm not sure why we're so quick to dismiss their concerns to appeal to white working class men. It's almost as if they're justified in not trusting us because they know we don't take their problems seriously and are content to claim that class politics alone will fix the world for them. Representation is good and matters. It also serves a strategic electoral purpose for the party.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:11
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