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What do y'all find attractive about Buddhism compared to Hinduism*? *why turn away from the older 'parent' religion?
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Oct 11, 2016 07:13
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The Hindu Religion I would argue is not the parent religion - Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism all derived from the Vedic Religion from 1700BCE - Hinduism came to being around 1000BCE, with Buddhism coming from vedic traditions from about 520BCE. During the early stages of hinduism, there was still plenty of different Vedic groups that were still around during that time, especially in Northern India, which is where Buddhism was born.
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Oct 11, 2016 14:31
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ragle posted:What do y'all find attractive about Buddhism compared to Hinduism*? I like the radical monism, first and foremost. After that, lack of colorful deities, simple rituals (in zen/chan at least), no soul, no mind, ni self. It's really neat and simple.
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Oct 11, 2016 17:50
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Senior Scarybagels posted:The Hindu Religion I would argue is not the parent religion - Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism all derived from the Vedic Religion from 1700BCE - Hinduism came to being around 1000BCE, with Buddhism coming from vedic traditions from about 520BCE. During the early stages of hinduism, there was still plenty of different Vedic groups that were still around during that time, especially in Northern India, which is where Buddhism was born. What happened circa 1000BCE in your opinion to differentiate Hinduism from Vedas? Or are you just agreeing with that Powerpoint?
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Oct 11, 2016 17:56
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Mr. Mambold posted:What happened circa 1000BCE in your opinion to differentiate Hinduism from Vedas? Or are you just agreeing with that Powerpoint? I would say from what little I know about pre-hinduism vedic religion is how Shramanic practices became a major aspect of indo-iranian religion; which according to Alex Michaels "Hinduism. Past and present" was the turning point of vedic traditions into the hindu religion.
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Oct 11, 2016 19:31
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ragle posted:What do y'all find attractive about Buddhism compared to Hinduism*?
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Oct 17, 2016 15:16
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ragle posted:What do y'all find attractive about Buddhism compared to Hinduism*? I never was a part of the parent religion, for one. But the formerly Hindu family that now comes to my Sangha converted because of the lack of altruistic motivation in their former religion. They have said they believe for them enlightenment can only be achieved in the altruistic motivation of Mahayana.
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Oct 18, 2016 22:17
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Hey Mo Tzu importing a question from the other thread: does pure land still hold to the three practices of discipline, meditation, and wisdom? Conventional Buddhism holds to the idea that we all must practice morality in the form of precepts or the vinaya, meditation to develop samadhi, and through those the cultivation of wisdom. Does pure land simply hold that wisdom is impossible in the degenerate era, or are those three elements of practice still present?
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Oct 21, 2016 13:58
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Paramemetic posted:Hey Mo Tzu importing a question from the other thread: does pure land still hold to the three practices of discipline, meditation, and wisdom? jodo shinshu at least holds that it is completely impossible to practice buddhism in this era, and that the only practice one should engage in is "no practice," which is opening oneself up to amida buddha to be moved by him to call on his name (in other words, a true nembutsu which comes from other power, or tariki). so no, we don't hold to those. there's probably some nuance that i'm not getting because i'm still fairly new to thinking about and studying jodo shinshu but as far as i'm aware even holding to the precepts aren't fully necessary, because in this age it's impossible to fully practice them and even to engage in practicing the precepts as a path towards nirvana is born of self power which is antithetical to the other power focus of jodo shinshu.
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Oct 21, 2016 14:16
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Man, literally grace alone Buddhism-ish. Historically what brought this about? Like what were the societal issues at the time in Japan to bring about such a radical shift from "practice these teachings of historical Buddha or at least these teachings from bonus mystical Buddha" to "all is lost better hope to be reborn in dewachen"?
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Oct 21, 2016 14:23
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first warring states period, coupled with shinran's dissatisfaction with the practices he was doing as a tendai monk as well as his own ambivalence towards being defrocked by the emperor (after his teacher, honen, had some disciples of his break into the retired emperor's harem and then be executed for the crime) basically law and order seemed to be falling apart, and then he got banished to a part of the country he never lived in with his monk status lost and then having to make sense of all that stuff. kinda makes sense really
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Oct 21, 2016 14:32
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Paramemetic posted:Hey Mo Tzu importing a question from the other thread: does pure land still hold to the three practices of discipline, meditation, and wisdom? In the Chinese Pure Land tradition, the reciting of Buddha (Amitabha)'s name (nian-fo) is seen as compatible with other forms of meditation, and is often combined with Chan (Dhyana) sitting practice. Pure Land Buddhism did start out as "practice the teachings of this mystical Buddha", it's based on some sutras, one of which dates back to at least the 4th century CE and can be read here: wikisource posted:"Śāriputra, if there are people who have already made the vow, who are making the vow presently, or who will make the vow to be born in the land of Amitābha Buddha, then these people all attain non-regression from Anuttarā Samyaksaṃbodhi. Whether in a past life, present life, or future life, they will be in this land. Śāriputra, it is for this reason that all virtuous men and virtuous women who believe this, should vow to be born in this land." Later when people felt that the Dharma was in decline and the chances of attaining enlightenment in this world were low, this became a very popular practice. It's obviously also attractive to laypeople who don't have the time or capacity for the more involved forms of meditation practice. In China, nian-fo communities were the most common form of lay Buddhist associations for many centuries, and in Taiwan they're still reasonably common. I think there are also Tibetan Pure Land schools, but I don't know anything about them.
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Oct 21, 2016 15:33
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pidan posted:Later when people felt that the Dharma was in decline and the chances of attaining enlightenment in this world were low, this became a very popular practice. It's obviously also attractive to laypeople who don't have the time or capacity for the more involved forms of meditation practice. In China, nian-fo communities were the most common form of lay Buddhist associations for many centuries, and in Taiwan they're still reasonably common. Tibetan traditions all incorporate pure land practices into our standard practice. Praying to be reborn in Sukhavati is rarely a primary practice except inasmuch as the 6 syllable mantra is the primary mantra of most laypeople and many monks. However, in most practices bailing out to Sukhavati is the fallback. For example, in the practice of Phowa (consciousness projection) within the Drikung lineage, the prayer and practice is structured so you get several possible outcomes, but one of those, the failsafe catch-all, is to project the consciousness to the pure land of Amitabha. I like to refer to it as the "vajra parachute." We try our best to attain enlightenment in this lifetime, but if that fails, we use the vajra parachute to at least make sure we don't fall to lower realms. Actually, however, at least my Lama has said he'd much rather be reborn in a hell realm than a pure land, as in the pure land he cannot benefit any beings - though his capacity to benefit beings would be increased by attending teachings from Amitabha, so it's kind of a wash. I think it doesn't matter much as there are unlimited sentient beings and they all need liberated from Samsara, so whatever works for a person. When performing Phowa for others, the goal is also to guide them to Dewachen, as we cannot liberate them ourselves through Phowa but we can guide them to the pure land which is like liberation. Even beings who have committed the five heinous crimes can be guided to formless realms and then to the pure land so that they do not produce additional karma that causes them to fall to the lower realms. So generally yeah, in Tibetan Buddhism it's not so much that there is a Pure Land practice as it is that everyone has the Pure Land bailout option that we apply as a backup in case we don't manage to make it in this lifetime, and as an option to say prayers for others because we cannot liberate them or even teach them once they have died, but we can hope that Amitabha will guide them there rather than them falling to a lower realm. Does that make sense?
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Oct 21, 2016 16:16
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This is all way too confusing for me; I am an idiot when it comes to these things. I just try to follow what was said by the shakyamuni and meditate.
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Oct 21, 2016 17:06
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Hello friends. I've been reading this thread recently (both forwards and backwards because I'm weird) and it has been great. I've learned so much in the past few days, especially about Tibetan Buddhism, so thank you all for that. Since there has been some discussion and questions about Jodo Shinshu lately I though I'd add my thoughts and experiences. First a little bit of background. I've been practicing Buddhism on my own, off and on, for just over two years. I've never attended meditation or classes at a monastery or temple and have mostly just read books, online articles, suttas, etc and try to put what I learn into practice. This started a few years ago. I don't know if you'd say I had a breakdown, but I definitely got highly burnt out over life. The practice has definitely greatly improved not just my life, but also the lives of those around me. However, lately life has taken a downturn again and, while I've been able to deal with it much better than previously, it got me looking into places around me where I can go and learn more about the Dharma. Around me, for what I can find, there is a Jodo Shinshu temple, a few Theravada monasteries (very small, one of them is just a house that the monks live at), one very small Tibetan place, and some Chinese places that don't speak English. I think there's also one of those new-agey Tibetan cults (they had the best website which I find sad). So Buddhism isn't terribly popular around here and seems to mostly serve the immigrant population (I can tell this is starting to change for the better tho). I started looking into each of these different styles before deciding that at this point, Jodo Shinshu is for me, and here's why: This dumbly amazing little kids anime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3wI5j-q9W8 I had a number of doubts about and was really turned off by the "faith only" stuff in Jodo Shinshu until this movie relieved every doubt and answered almost every question I had. It made sense out of much of the confusion in my mind. I cried, multiple times, happily, from the huge amount of compassion that I felt. The fact that I can post that is evidence. I would have been terribly ashamed and unable to do so even a year ago. The rest of the answers I was looking for where found in this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhHVkn-APso Most of the (non-metaphysical) questions about Jodo Shinshu and Jodo Shu from as far back as I've read in this thread (around Feb 2016) can be answered with these two resources but I think Mo Tzu has done a good job. The only thing I would like to clarify for those unable to watch 3 hours of videos is that Shinran never intended to create a school separate from Honen. Wikipedia translates Jodo Shu as roughly "The Pure Land School" and Jodo Shinshu as "The True Essence of the Pure Land Teaching" which I think is better than "The True Pure Land School" even if they essential mean the same thing. The only real, major difference is Shin doesn't require reciting the Nembutsu. Doing so doesn't generate karmic merit and doesn't help attainment in the Pure Land. It's simply a sign of gratitude for Amida's compassion and wisdom. This was done, as explained in section 2 of A Record in Lament of Divergences, which also ties the practice back to Shakyamuni Buddha. quote:Each of you has come to see me, crossing the borders of more than ten provinces at the risk of your life, solely with the intent of asking about the path to birth in the land of bliss. But if you imagine in me some special knowledge of a path to birth other than the nembutsu or of scriptural writings that teach it, you are greatly mistaken. If that is the case, since there are many eminent scholars in the southern capital of Nara or on Mount Hiei to the north, you would do better to meet with them and inquire fully about the essentials for birth. The reason for writing this is that his student/priests/followers (it's harder to describe them because they exist separately from the monastic/laity system of the Buddha) didn't fully understand his teaching and where in-fighting and teaching normal folks different practices. For example, some said the more you recited the nembutsu, the more likely you are to be reborn in the Pure Land. Others said you only have to say it once, or ten times, or whatever. But the nembutsu is not magic, and this kind of stuff generates confusion and doubt which are enemies of enlightenment. Everything Shonin did he did to remove obstacles from the normal person being able to practice Buddhism. The point was that putting your entire faith in the power of Amida Buddha's un-measurable compassion and infinite wisdom is all that matters. And when you do so you are immediately reborn into the Pure Land. There is no magic. Amida is not a god or otherwise a being that exists. Amida is the embodiment of these values. I put my faith in Amida Buddha means I center my life on caring and understanding. And if you actually do this, truthfully, in your heart, then you are living in the Pure Land. Life is your practice, and it's so much easier to hear, teach, and practice the Dharma. (That last part is obv my experience over the last few years) Wordicuffs fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 18:55
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i'm kinda gonna have to disagree with your interpretations there (though i gotta say, kudos on actually watching the shinran anime i couldn't get past the terrible animation and the godawful fauxld man voice they gave shinran). the first might be more of a quibble over vocabulary but the way you describe "giving yourself over" isn't quite right, in my opinion. i'm gonna have to use shinjin here, just because there isn't really a good way of describing this without it, but basically shinjin is the state in which an individual becomes aware that without the amida's perfect grace, there would be no escape from hell. i, as an individual, cannot make myself one with amida. only by amida's compassion and call to me can i respond. saying "i center my life on compassion and understanding" isn't quite right, because centering yourself (unless i'm misinterpreting you) is self power, and jodo shinshu is about other power. the second objection i have is fairly simple; you're kinda stripping jodo shinshu of its metaphysical properties, which i will grant you is still pure land. like if you said that about pure land practice in general i'd say "cool that's like what pure land practitioners in taiwan say," (except not exactly, since for them the pure land is a place in which one can practice buddhism without encumbrance, which can exist in this world and can only come about by creating the structures to create that world but you see what i mean, it's like an individualist interpretation). like, amida buddha exists. it's pretty essential that he does. what existence means for a buddha i would not be able to say, since i'm both poorly educated in buddhist philosophy and also because a buddha exists on a level beyond me, but amida is a buddha. like the existence of amida and a literal pure land are fairly essential for jodo shinshu and is one of the thing that separates jodo shinshu from other pure land practices quote:Much like with Tibetan stuff it's a hang up from a culture that used gods as symbols colliding with western Christianity.
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Nov 3, 2016 00:42
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Mo Tzu posted:there's a lot of stuff going on here that's both wrong and just vaguely racist and i'm having a lot of problems unpacking it... It comes from a base of doubt and ignorance and perhaps ethnocentrism on my behalf that I recognize as detrimental. My intention wasn't to judge anyone or any culture. I've deleted the comment because I don't think it added anything. I apologize if I've offended anyone. Mo Tzu posted:i'm kinda gonna have to disagree with your interpretations there (though i gotta say, kudos on actually watching the shinran anime i couldn't get past the terrible animation and the godawful fauxld man voice they gave shinran). the first might be more of a quibble over vocabulary but the way you describe "giving yourself over" isn't quite right, in my opinion. i'm gonna have to use shinjin here, just because there isn't really a good way of describing this without it, but basically shinjin is the state in which an individual becomes aware that without the amida's perfect grace, there would be no escape from hell. i, as an individual, cannot make myself one with amida. only by amida's compassion and call to me can i respond. saying "i center my life on compassion and understanding" isn't quite right, because centering yourself (unless i'm misinterpreting you) is self power, and jodo shinshu is about other power. the second objection i have is fairly simple; you're kinda stripping jodo shinshu of its metaphysical properties, which i will grant you is still pure land. like if you said that about pure land practice in general i'd say "cool that's like what pure land practitioners in taiwan say," (except not exactly, since for them the pure land is a place in which one can practice buddhism without encumbrance, which can exist in this world and can only come about by creating the structures to create that world but you see what i mean, it's like an individualist interpretation). Some of this is definitely just semantics. The hardest part for me is letting go of a past conditioning of skepticism mixed with the usual fear, doubt, ignorance, etc that makes us human. For example, I know Amida Buddha exists, but I get hung up way too much on exactly what a Buddha is and what that means and I want proof. So for me, the proof is in my experience alone. On the other hand, it shouldn't matter as much as it does because the teachings don't change. So that's stuff I'm still working through. But I think I got off track on my previous post. My intention was to share some of the information that I used when figuring out what Pure Land, and Shin in particular, was all about. I think I got a bit excited and perhaps spoke on some topics I wasn't prepared to. In keeping with the thread title, I do have a question for you though. It says on the Jodo Shinshu Wikipedia page, and I believe I've read elsewhere but can't recall where, that Shinran and Tan-luan believe the Pure Land is the same as nirvana. Is this a commonly held belief in your experience? I haven't seen this in any of Shinran's writings but perhaps it was in Tan-luan's commentaries, which I haven't read.
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Nov 3, 2016 06:15
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It seems, reading this thread, like the big obstacle for Buddhist practice for a lot of westerners is "admitting that these things we could call supernatural, do in fact exist, more or less as described." Like it isn't quite disbelief or skepticism, it's like what you were saying, Wordicuffs... it's hard to accept even provisionally that these things are in some sense 'real,' except in the extremely specific sense of thought-forms, metaphors, etc. I wonder if that's been widespread in any other historical points... well, there's a first time for everything.
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Nov 3, 2016 11:37
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I don't think the pure land being identified with nirvana was something shinran did. I haven't exactly read a lot of primary sources but I'm sure it's not a shinshu teaching at least. I've heard it described that instead of envisioning the pure land as Sunday and this world as Saturday it's more accurate to do the opposite, because once we enter the pure land that is when we do the hard work of becoming a Buddha Also lmao if you have a hard time believing the "supernatural" stuff. I'm looking forward to flying and reading minds when I become a Buddha. I won't use it to win a golden bowl, tho
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Nov 3, 2016 14:33
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Nessus posted:It seems, reading this thread, like the big obstacle for Buddhist practice for a lot of westerners is "admitting that these things we could call supernatural, do in fact exist, more or less as described." Like it isn't quite disbelief or skepticism, it's like what you were saying, Wordicuffs... it's hard to accept even provisionally that these things are in some sense 'real,' except in the extremely specific sense of thought-forms, metaphors, etc. I kind of disagree here, this is more dependent on your personal teaching and what you have found to be true after meditation and study. Shakyamuni did say after all not to believe in something just because it is written in the religious texts.
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Nov 3, 2016 15:11
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Nessus posted:It seems, reading this thread, like the big obstacle for Buddhist practice for a lot of westerners is "admitting that these things we could call supernatural, do in fact exist, more or less as described." Like it isn't quite disbelief or skepticism, it's like what you were saying, Wordicuffs... it's hard to accept even provisionally that these things are in some sense 'real,' except in the extremely specific sense of thought-forms, metaphors, etc. For me, I recognize it as simply clinging to beliefs I've had for a very long time from a very young age. The obstacles comes from (1) trying to reconcile these long standing beliefs with the truths I've experienced, which usually leads to delusion and confusion, and (2) not outright rejecting the supernatural as impossible or crazy, as this is aversion. Luckily, the Buddha taught us how to correctly deal with these obstacles. I don't think we're special as a culture in this regard. If anything, a culture based largely around science and empirical evidence should, in theory, be more likely to follow the Buddha than other teachings since he did teach not just to believe but to walk the path for yourself. Mo Tzu posted:I don't think the pure land being identified with nirvana was something shinran did. I haven't exactly read a lot of primary sources but I'm sure it's not a shinshu teaching at least. I've heard it described that instead of envisioning the pure land as Sunday and this world as Saturday it's more accurate to do the opposite, because once we enter the pure land that is when we do the hard work of becoming a Buddha That's an interesting interpretation. Thank you. Mo Tzu posted:Also lmao if you have a hard time believing the "supernatural" stuff. I'm looking forward to flying and reading minds when I become a Buddha. I won't use it to win a golden bowl, tho But will you re-enter samsara as every member of the Cubs baseball team to ensure they win another championship in a few eons? EDIT: Clarification Wordicuffs fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Nov 3, 2016 |
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Nov 3, 2016 18:20
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so this might not be an appropriate place for me talk about this, since i know i'm maybe one of two shinshu practitioners and mostly you guys are pretty american with some exceptions, but i figure since we're all buddhists maybe you all might have some insight into this problem i'm having. so i used to be christian, right? not a big deal, a lot of us here in the west were at some point, or if not actually christian at least familiar enough with it. the point is, i'm used to praying when things go bad. someone gets in danger of losing their house, i say to them "i'll pray for you," which is both a way of saying "hey, i see your pain and i want to help but this is the only way i can think of doing it," and a way of me, you know, helping them. but since converting, i can't really do that anymore. we don't "pray" to the buddhas or boddhisattvas for earthly things. there are some practices concerning healing, but for me at least those aren't a possibility. as a jodo shinshu practitioner i believe that i have no practice; anything i do is a product of amida nyorai and cannot be said to be my own effort or practice. the only thing that matters is a true nembutsu, which is said when i am in alignment with amida's call and have no self power at all. a nembutsu said for another person is not a true nembutsu, because it is a demonstration of self power. shinran himself, when his wife was in danger of death from illness, shut himself off to recite the nembutsu continuously but ceased when he realized the contradiction within it. however, even though a nembutsu said like this is not a true nembutsu, it's said that a false nembutsu can help lead to a true nembutsu so it is not entirely without merit. this is a bit rambling but my point is; i just recently found out an old friend of mine from college has been diagnosed with cancer, and that it has gotten so bad it's spread to the lymph nodes. his doctors have given him two years, and while sure i reached out to him on facebook that still doesn't feel like i'm doing enough for him. when i was christian i would have prayed a divine mercy novena for him, probably even arranging for masses to be said for him. however, as a buddhist i do not have access to those types of spiritual practices. so i feel like i'm left having to deal with this with one hand tied behind my back. part of me says, "gently caress it, shinran said that the kami are the protectors of buddhism, and so it's right for shinshu practitioners to make offerings to the kami for things like healing," which i of course take to mean "if god is real, and god would need to practice buddhism because god would not be god forever, god would still potentially be able to help with things like this so as long as i understand it within this worldview it could be permissible to pray like this." but the rest of me says that this was a compromise shinran made in order to avoid imperial suppression, since maligning the buddhas, bodhisattva, and kami other than amida would be tantamount to treason. additionally, this sort of appeal to imperial authority is what lead to honpa honganji and nishi honganji's complicity in promoting japanese aggression which obviously had disastrous consequences. so perhaps taking shinran's obsequience as an excuse for syncretist practice might not be great. another part of me looks to popular japanese buddhism, also known as funerary buddhism, and how reciting the nembutsu for dead friends and relatives is extremely common. if a false nembutsu isn't necessarily an impediment to a true nembutsu, then what would be the harm in reciting the nembutsu in hope that my friend be reborn in the pure land? but this isn't quite the same as praying for healing, is it? i don't know, i feel frustrated that i don't know how to deal with this spiritually, and i should probably e-mail my local bca priest about this but i feel like he has more to worry about like the joint pet funeral he did this weekend (i am assuming my local bca temple isn't exactly flush right now). has anyone else had this sort of experience of feeling helpless in the face of illness and death?
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Nov 22, 2016 06:18
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Sorry to hear about your friend Mo Tzu, it sounds like your altruistic motivation is in the right place and you are being moved by compassion so everything after that is gravy. This is one of the big differences I think between Pure Land and Tibetan Buddhism, as Tibetan Buddhism has a whole family of options for this. For example there is the practice of Medicine Buddha, which is not only a powerful practice for benefiting beings by healing their illnesses and helping them with peaceful transitions to death but also a liberation practice that can help others gain favorable rebirths with access to Dharma. Obviously, but unfortunately, nobody can liberate anyone else - if the Buddhas could liberate us then we would all be liberated! Unfortunately we have to liberate ourselves. But nevertheless there are many Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Dharma Protectors, and so on who have made aspiration vows to benefit beings. While I understand that in your perspective in this degenerate era there is no point to practice anything other than Amida Buddha and particularly Nembutsu, surely your practice does not dismiss the aspiration vows of these other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as ineffectual, or claim that these Bodhisattvas have abandoned their vows or something like this. So for example Green or White Tara, Medicine Buddha, Chenrezig, Amitayus, or so on would all be potential options for bodhisattvas to practice in this situation to benefit others. Also of course as you've mentioned I think the Kami are local protector deities, right? Just because they are unenlightened doesn't mean they are ineffectual. His Holiness Chetsang Rinpoche recently taught at Shachukul Monastery that it is okay to make offerings to and practice local deities and so on so long as we realize they are not objects of refuge. So for example if a family or village has a strong connection to a mountain deity or something, even if that mountain deity is not enlightened, it is still okay to make offerings to that deity and request its help and so on. It's just critical that we realize that that deity is also samsaric and so cannot actually be an object of refuge that can grant us ultimate enlightenment. The practice of such deities is just another samsaric activity. Asking such a deity to help us is no different than asking a doctor to help us, and there's nothing wrong with doing that just because the doctor can't liberate us from Samsara! FWIW, I will practice Medicine Buddha for your friend.
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Nov 22, 2016 14:21
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well, i know for a fact that jodo shinshu has historically fought against the claim that they dismiss all other buddhas and bodhisattvas that aren't amida, and shinran even made a statement that while they cannot help us towards liberation they still exist and their vows would presumably also exist. practicing medicine buddha practice might not be strictly orthodox, but it doesn't necessarily seem like it would be heretical. i mean, takamaro shigaraki talked about the need for jodo shinshu to incorporate mahayanna thought into its way of thinking, and he even mentioned that perhaps the path of sages can lead some to enlightenment, so if he could say all that and still be shinshu i don't see why i couldn't practice medicine buddha practice, especially since his vows say nothing about all beings being reborn in his pure land but does say that he will cure the sick and clothe the naked. thank you for your advice
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Nov 22, 2016 15:04
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I sometimes wish I had the perspective of coming to Buddhism from Christianity. I would be able to understand these questions better.
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Nov 22, 2016 15:26
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I've noticed that just like Christians often have a hard time with aspects of Buddhism ("what do you mean you don't worship Buddha?") the opposite is also often true. Sometimes I struggle when talking to my Lama because explaining something Christians are doing often requires a lot of depth and background the same as it does to understand Buddhism. I think the best way is probably to visit a Christian service (I'd say Catholic but I'm biased) and just ask someone what's going on all the time. Meet someone before the mass, explain that you're there to learn what the heck Christians are about, and then just go with it. From my perspective, there's no harm in even recognizing the Christian God as existent as long as he's understood to be samsaric and not a source of refuge. And from the biblical accounts, he's definitely samsaric.
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Nov 22, 2016 15:57
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Mo Tzu posted:
Maybe you ought to revisit what name brand of buddhism you're buying into that you can find the one with the features that suit your temperament. Praying for healing is inherent in many of the more original versions. If that sounds catty, then do recall that it was illness and death that spurred Gautama to leave the satisfied, smug life of a palace prince and seek truth. Also this: as a jodo shinshu practitioner i believe that i have no practice; anything i do is a product of amida nyorai and cannot be said to be my own effort or practice. is glib as gently caress and self-deception to the extreme. It's bullshit, son. It's the same bullshit that the so-called practitioners of Dzogchen parrot, "Lol, durr I don't have to practice, lol I'm being practiced." loving numbskulls. Pray for your friend because your inner buddha self is asking it of you.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:09
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Shinran Shonin said that if his teacher honen had deceived him, and that amida was not a buddha, he would surely fall into hell. being aware of how little we have to practice is part of shinshu thought. and quite frankly any wisdom or compassion i have is thanks to amida So if I'm self deluded i will be reborn in hell, but even so this practice of no practice is the only thing i can do. in the face of a friend's death it's difficult, because i am not in shinjin, but still how can i do any practice other than the nembutsu that tatthaghatta calls me to?
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Nov 22, 2016 17:25
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Paramemetic posted:I've noticed that just like Christians often have a hard time with aspects of Buddhism ("what do you mean you don't worship Buddha?") the opposite is also often true. Sometimes I struggle when talking to my Lama because explaining something Christians are doing often requires a lot of depth and background the same as it does to understand Buddhism. I think the best way is probably to visit a Christian service (I'd say Catholic but I'm biased) and just ask someone what's going on all the time. Meet someone before the mass, explain that you're there to learn what the heck Christians are about, and then just go with it. Oh yeah, I understand it pretty well. My entire extended family is either Jewish or Christian. It was just my crusty hippy parents that were offshoots. It's just strange for me and other kids in our group, since it was never really something we came to on our own, it was just how we were raised.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:32
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i ended up e-mailing the reverend at the local buddhist church near where i live, and i'm going to copy his response here since it was a really good response.quote:Thank you for your email and please forgive me for being a bit slow in responding. I am so sorry to hear about your friend’s dire situation. I am most impressed by your understanding of Jodo Shinshu. Your questions are good ones. Let me begin, however, by talking about my perspective on Jodo Shinshu and especially on the Nembutsu. As you said, the Nembutsu is not a practice to heal others or to make miracles. Rather, it is for you to realize the limits of Self-Power. It is to remind us that the beginning is the start of the end and the end is the beginning and that we live lives that flow along naturally and that are beyond our control. This, indeed, is our practice. It is our very realization that life and death are beyond our control that makes each moment of life precious. More, if one can grasp fully the reality of this idea, then there is in those moments of grief, sorrow, or anxiety the comfort of the Nembutsu always with us. So the Nembutsu is not magic to heal people but it can be very healing. In other words, the Nembutsu is for you, not for others. i have a lot of personal baggage related to christianity so i don't think i can actually pray, but doing medicine buddha practice is a good compromise for me since he does have vows that say he'll heal the sick
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Nov 26, 2016 01:49
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I'm wondering what your guy's opinion on secular Buddhism is, it seems overwhelmingly that unless I'm speaking to someone from the west the perception seems to be that it is cultural appropriation and not actually Buddhism. While I can understand why someone would think this to be the case, I still find a secular approach to Buddhism to be appealing as someone who has had a lot of problems with Christianity and identified as agnostic for a number of years after splitting away from the church. I guess namely I still struggle with the concept of reincarnation/rebirth, and I'm not exactly good at following the 5th precept. So what is your take on it?
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Nov 29, 2016 00:49
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What would you think if someone told you they were a secular Christian? Would that statement make sense to you?
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Nov 29, 2016 01:49
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Helpimscared posted:I'm wondering what your guy's opinion on secular Buddhism is, it seems overwhelmingly that unless I'm speaking to someone from the west the perception seems to be that it is cultural appropriation and not actually Buddhism. While I can understand why someone would think this to be the case, I still find a secular approach to Buddhism to be appealing as someone who has had a lot of problems with Christianity and identified as agnostic for a number of years after splitting away from the church. I guess namely I still struggle with the concept of reincarnation/rebirth, and I'm not exactly good at following the 5th precept. So what is your take on it? It's all about the practice you put in. You can be as secular as you please, it's not a fan club, and it's not all "Oh Jesus/Gautama/etc gonna do it for me". Nor is it "There is nothing to be done, I don't exist, neither do you, but somehow we're on these forums." That's all horseshit. You do the work. If you can't deal with reincarnation, don't deal with it. Follow the precepts. You're in the modern age, and if it's to have any merit buddhism as a valid practice must adapt; you have to be able to live in the world. So you have a drink or eat meat, it's not the end of the world. As the Bodhisattva Jesus said, it's not what goes into your mouth that condemns you, it's what comes out of it.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:01
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Reene posted:What would you think if someone told you they were a secular Christian? Would that statement make sense to you? Let me ask as a counter point; the Shakyamuni said that “There are 84,000 paths to enlightenment" which is to represent an infinite number of paths to enlightenment. Considering that, and the fact that Buddha said "“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness’ — then you should enter & remain in them." Taking this and following your own experiences and observations and words of the wise, if you find that secular buddhism could lead to enlightnment, then I mean, it could with the Buddha saying that essentially there are an infinite number of paths to enlightenment. Why would it be impossible for a secular Buddhist to attain enlightenment?
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Nov 29, 2016 02:05
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i think if your buddhism looks down on the buddhism asian people practice, and actively avoids contemporary asian conceptions of buddhism and scholarly takes on buddhist practice, then you're probably going to want to ask yourself why that is because it's probably not for reasons you're gonna like like if you quote the dhammapada at someone who's a pure land practitioner (not even necessarily jodo shinshu, like a tendai person who just likes the nembutsu) you gotta ask yourself why it is you're so unwilling to understand where that person is coming from that you quote a text to them that isn't that important in their tradition.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:28
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Mo Tzu posted:i think if your buddhism looks down on the buddhism asian people practice, and actively avoids contemporary asian conceptions of buddhism and scholarly takes on buddhist practice, then you're probably going to want to ask yourself why that is because it's probably not for reasons you're gonna like Playing Devil's Advocate; but if someone is honest in their approach to Buddhism, have done the research and everything, their practice doesn't look down upon the practices of others; its just their own observations and meditations lead them down a more secular path of buddhism, is that really wrong? still I would rather the most jerkish of secular buddhist than someone who claims to follow Dark Buddhism
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Nov 29, 2016 03:30
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Reene posted:What would you think if someone told you they were a secular Christian? Would that statement make sense to you? I would definitely be curious as to what exactly secular Christianity entails, but it wouldn't not make sense to me. I presume it would probably have something to do with following Jesus as more of a teacher or an example of moral person, rather than worship. Its different strokes for different folks, if they find peace in their practice and aren't being violent or culty about it who am I to judge?
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Nov 29, 2016 03:48
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Senior Scarybagels posted:Playing Devil's Advocate; but if someone is honest in their approach to Buddhism, have done the research and everything, their practice doesn't look down upon the practices of others; its just their own observations and meditations lead them down a more secular path of buddhism, is that really wrong? morally wrong or like ontologically wrong? like as long as us white western buddhists don't push asian american buddhists out of their spaces and are both aware and respectful of more traditionally buddhist practices then i guess go nuts. i think literally all practices don't lead to buddhahood and it's only thanks to amida's primal vow that in this age of depravity we can be reborn in the pure land and do the hard work of practicing buddhism so like ontologically yeah they wrong cause amida is real and amida is my friend.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:53
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Helpimscared posted:I would definitely be curious as to what exactly secular Christianity entails, but it wouldn't not make sense to me. I presume it would probably have something to do with following Jesus as more of a teacher or an example of moral person, rather than worship. Its different strokes for different folks, if they find peace in their practice and aren't being violent or culty about it who am I to judge? Of course there's also people who identify themselves as 'culturally Christian' in the sense of 'I am very specifically not one of the Rising Muslim Hordes' but I doubt that's a big factor in Buddhism at present.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:56
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| # ? May 13, 2024 23:36 |
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Does it make you a better person, a happier person? Does it reduce your suffering without causing suffering for others? Great then.  Does it make you a more miserable person? Does it increase your suffering or cause suffering for others? Eh, don't do that thing. The question over secular Buddhism isn't about whether or not it's "okay," it's about whether or not it gets to be called "Buddhism" normally. Most traditions define a Buddhist as someone who takes Refuge in the Three Jewels, and who makes an attempt to adhere to the teachings that come with that, that is, accepting the Four Noble Truths and following the Noble Eightfold Path. You don't have to receive the empowerments to manifest yourself as Hevajra so you can enter into the mandala etc etc etc if that's not your thing. I think the only discord that ever comes from that is when people from different approaches to Buddhism cross into one another's spaces and then start tossing around "my Buddhism is better than yours" type nonsense. It goes both ways, both white American materialist Buddhists going "psh, all that silly superstition is just those goofy primitive Asians who aren't as enlightened about scientific materialism as we Americans" or the Asian practitioners looking at that same American "secular" Buddhist going "psh that guy doesn't even do ritual, he doesn't even have a guru!" and so on. Both of these are kind of silly approaches but they're very human approaches. So I'm doing that thing where I type too much again but basically if you're a secular Buddhist and you don't want to believe that there are literal spirits and that hungry ghosts are real things that's fine by me, I'm totally cool with that. Similarly I am going to literally plan practices based on lunar phases and invisible progressions of elemental cycles and that's cool. tl;dr: Practicing Buddhism while having a Western materialist perspective is cool and good, trying to reject more traditional Buddhism as some kind of primitive rites of backwards people is not. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 04:26
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