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I enjoy thinking about the process of how the 25th amendment truly plays out. The VP and majority of the cabinet send a letter saying that the president is insane or a loving moron and incapable of performing the duties of the office of the president. The VP becomes acting president. The President then sends a letter that says "Nuh Uh, totally sane. They are just jealous of me. Sad." and regains his power. The VP and majority of the cabinet send another letter saying that "No, really, he is insane and is going to end the world." and his power is again taken away, permanently this time.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:17
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Fojar38 posted:lol you think that there is a literal big red button in the Oval Office that the President presses that instantly launches all nukes. the button is actually disguised as the seal of the president of the united states in the oval office. the president and the secretary of defense have to jump on it together to unleash nuclear holocaust.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:19
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Khisanth Magus posted:I enjoy thinking about the process of how the 25th amendment truly plays out. The simple act of sending the letter would halt things for long enough for how insane the President is to become apparent and for impeachment proceedings to be rammed through Congress
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Nov 29, 2016 23:19
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Fojar38 posted:lol you think that there is a literal big red button in the Oval Office that the President presses that instantly launches all nukes. Jesus christ dude, just admit that you misremembered the exact wording of the 4th clause of the 25th amendment, no one will be mad at you. Also, the Football does have some preset launch plans, so if Trump wants to destroy Iran there probably is a "destroy Ira" plan already in there. It does probably require more than one button press and who knows if any of them are red, so you got me there
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Nov 29, 2016 23:20
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Trump isn't going to nuke anyone by the way and this is all basically Clancychat.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:20
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Fojar38 posted:The Secretary of Defense has to confirm it. Now supposed that the Secretary of Defense is also insane; there's still a chain of command past those two consisting of various air bases, command and control nodes, and other launch sites and platforms. Anyone in the chain of command, especially higher ups, upon receiving the order would go "huh I'm getting this order even though we're at DEFCON 5 and the targets are all in Mexico. This is a really suspicious order I'd better confirm it a few times" at which point panicked White House officials will have contacted Pence and informed him that the POTUS is off his rocker and he needs to invoke the 25th amendment right loving now does this thought actually give you some kind of comfort?
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Nov 29, 2016 23:21
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Fojar38 posted:And can also kick down Pences door and say "25th amendment now." Even if he can't directly veto it (which we don't know since this entire scenario is totally hypothetical) he can inform the people who can. There is a line of succession for the role of "dude who confirms that the president gave the order". If the SecDef says no, Trump can immediately relive him of duty and just go down the list until he finds someone who will say yes.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:22
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I literally cannot believe the Trump tweets/retweets about journalists not being able to prove that he didn't lose millions of votes due to fraud. That person is going to be president, I honestly cannot believe it. Regarding nuclear chat, I find it hilarious that people actually think that Hillary would be more likely to get us all nuked. Mother of drones and a hawkish empire-builder, sure, but at least a loving rational actor. Rational actors don't use nukes. Sure she could have started something with Russia, no fly zones in Syria or whatever, but Russia, for all Putins posturing, is a loving pussy cat with a GDP lower than borderline bankrupt Italy. Hardly a real threat (unless you're in eastern Europe and Trump is president) and no rational 'playing the game by the rules'-person is going to fire the nukes based on some minor conflict in a middle-eastern, geopolitical inconsequential, shithole. Trump however, an irrational, fascist, actual imbecile, who is also the most thin-skinned, self-important person to grace the national stage? Christ, defcon should be at 2 right now, just in preparation for the Trump presidency.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:22
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:does this thought actually give you some kind of comfort? I think that the premise of "What if literally everyone in the executive branch of government is The Joker" to be dumb and wrong anyway but hopefully the fact that even if that were true it still wouldn't result in nukes being launched brings some comfort to some people.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:23
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Spaced God posted:No, he wasn't harming anyone so he doesn't need to be detained! Well I'm surprised the CEO even did anything. They must have realized that "Oh poo poo, he is white but he's yelling stuff that might piss off other white people as well so we have to say something!" But yeah as a brown Muslim dude flying blows unless you look like you are a business traveler and even then it might not help like in your example.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:23
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Guy Goodbody posted:There is a line of succession for the role of "dude who confirms that the president gave the order". If the SecDef says no, Trump can immediately relive him of duty and just go down the list until he finds someone who will say yes. That's not how the line of succession works jesus christ.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:24
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Fojar38 posted:The Secretary of Defense has to confirm it. Now supposed that the Secretary of Defense is also insane; there's still a chain of command past those two consisting of various air bases, command and control nodes, and other launch sites and platforms. Anyone in the chain of command, especially higher ups, upon receiving the order would go "huh I'm getting this order even though we're at DEFCON 5 and the targets are all in Mexico. This is a really suspicious order I'd better confirm it a few times" at which point panicked White House officials will have contacted Pence and informed him that the POTUS is off his rocker and he needs to invoke the 25th amendment right loving now What's impressive here is Donnie has somehow gotten the US to go from Defcon 4 to 5.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:24
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QuoProQuid posted:the button is actually disguised as the seal of the president of the united states in the oval office. the president and the secretary of defense have to jump on it together to unleash nuclear holocaust. It's a good thing we elected Trump then as Hillary, as a small frail woman, would not have enough weight to unleash nuclear holocaust.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:25
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HannibalBarca posted:https://twitter.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/803688010327867392 Everything about the Clinton campaign is terrible, 2008-2016. Trump is going to loving suck, but now more than ever it underscores how badly Democrats need to get away from party holdovers of the 90s and early 2000s.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:26
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Fojar38 posted:I think that the premise of "What if literally everyone in the executive branch of government is The Joker" to be dumb and wrong anyway but hopefully the fact that even if that were true it still wouldn't result in nukes being launched brings some comfort to some people. One thing that you're forgetting is that people in nuclear subs don't know poo poo. They don't get CNN down there. So if the captain of a nuclear sub gets the launch order, he doesn't have the perspective necessary to know if it's actually warranted. The only reason he wouldn't go through with the launch is a serious committed opposition to nuclear war. Which is an unlikely position for the captain of a nuclear sub to take.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:26
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Fojar38 posted:That's not how the line of succession works jesus christ. I didn't say it was the line of succession, I said there was a line of succession. The Presidency doesn't have a copyright on the term line of succession.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:27
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PhazonLink posted:What's impressive here is Donnie has somehow gotten the US to go from Defcon 4 to 5. Current level is DEFCON 5 from everything I can see Guy Goodbody posted:One thing that you're forgetting is that people in nuclear subs don't know poo poo. They don't get CNN down there. So if the captain of a nuclear sub gets the launch order, he doesn't have the perspective necessary to now if it's actually warranted. The only reason he wouldn't go through with the launch is a serious committed opposition to nuclear war. Which is an unlikely position for the captain of a nuclear sub to take. Good thing that Trump doesn't personally call sub commanders. Hell in order for them to even do anything he'd have to order they be placed in attack positions which would raise more than a few red flags at the Pentagon if the international climate obviously didn't warrant it.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:28
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Guy Goodbody posted:I didn't say it was the line of succession, I said there was a line of succession. The Presidency doesn't have a copyright on the term line of succession. There isn't any line of succession for "President fires Secretary of Defense." The President can't unilaterally appoint a new one; the Senate has to approve it.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:29
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Guy Goodbody posted:One thing that you're forgetting is that people in nuclear subs don't know poo poo. They don't get CNN down there. So if the captain of a nuclear sub gets the launch order, he doesn't have the perspective necessary to know if it's actually warranted. The only reason he wouldn't go through with the launch is a serious committed opposition to nuclear war. Which is an unlikely position for the captain of a nuclear sub to take. Also don't they perform dummy launches all the time as pro forma.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:29
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Guy Goodbody posted:Also, the Football does have some preset launch plans, so if Trump wants to destroy Iran there probably is a "destroy Ira" plan already in there.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:30
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Fojar38 posted:The Secretary of Defense has to confirm it. Now supposed that the Secretary of Defense is also insane; there's still a chain of command past those two consisting of various air bases, command and control nodes, and other launch sites and platforms. Anyone in the chain of command, especially higher ups, upon receiving the order would go "huh I'm getting this order even though we're at DEFCON 5 and the targets are all in Mexico. This is a really suspicious order I'd better confirm it a few times" at which point panicked White House officials will have contacted Pence and informed him that the POTUS is off his rocker and he needs to invoke the 25th amendment right loving now The problem is that you're basically describing a breakdown in how these things are supposed to function, at least as far as I understand it. The subordinates who are supposed to carry out the order have no legal authority to delay or question that order. The kind of repeated confirmations that you're talking about would only happen as a blatant stalling tactic, and it'd require everyone involved to independently decide that something is wrong. That could happen, but relying on humans to make the right decision is different from relying on a procedural escape hatch like the 25th. If everything functions as it's supposed to, then a hypothetical unhinged president would be able to launch before anyone could do anything about it.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:30
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Paradoxish posted:The problem is that you're basically describing a breakdown in how these things are supposed to function, at least as far as I understand it. The subordinates who are supposed to carry out the order have no legal authority to delay or question that order. The kind of repeated confirmations that you're talking about would only happen as a blatant stalling tactic, and it'd require everyone involved to independently decide that something is wrong. That could happen, but relying on humans to make the right decision is different from relying on a procedural escape hatch like the 25th. This is why there are varying levels of alertness based on the international climate. Orders that come right out of the blue for no apparent reason despite everything seeming to be fine and dandy would take far longer to process and be confirmed than they would be during a hypothetical Cuban Missile or Berlin crisis equivalent.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:31
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Khisanth Magus posted:I enjoy thinking about the process of how the 25th amendment truly plays out. The tweets would be amazing.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:32
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PhazonLink posted:What's impressive here is Donnie has somehow gotten the US to go from Defcon 4 to 5. Oh hey! Another guy using terms he doesn't understand in USPOL! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON
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Nov 29, 2016 23:32
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Fojar38 posted:Good thing that Trump doesn't personally call sub commanders. Hell in order for them to even do anything he'd have to order they be placed in attack positions which would raise more than a few red flags at the Pentagon if the international climate obviously didn't warrant it. What is attack positions for a nuclear submarine?
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Nov 29, 2016 23:32
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Guy Goodbody posted:What is attack positions for a nuclear submarine? Not having high level security clearance I don't know.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:33
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edit: poo poo, maybe I need to get better at readin
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Nov 29, 2016 23:34
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https://twitter.com/MerriamWebster/status/803674255732813825
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Nov 29, 2016 23:34
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Boon posted:Oh hey! Another guy using terms he doesn't understand in USPOL! i long for defcom 1
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Nov 29, 2016 23:35
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yeah! let's see what else is in the news... https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/803683721895378944 Mr Hootington posted:i long for defcom 1 it's three minutes to midnight
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Nov 29, 2016 23:36
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Guy Goodbody posted:
It's referring to the Presidential line of succession ie if the President is killed who replaces him. The Secretary of Defense line of succession is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_Defense#Secretary_of_Defense_succession And if the President fired his secretary of defense he would, at some point, have to explain why to someone.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:37
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Boon posted:Oh hey! Another guy using terms he doesn't understand in USPOL! Wow didn't realize we went into DEFCON 2 during the Gulf war, what was that about?
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Nov 29, 2016 23:39
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Guy Goodbody posted:One thing that you're forgetting is that people in nuclear subs don't know poo poo. They don't get CNN down there. So if the captain of a nuclear sub gets the launch order, he doesn't have the perspective necessary to know if it's actually warranted. The only reason he wouldn't go through with the launch is a serious committed opposition to nuclear war. Which is an unlikely position for the captain of a nuclear sub to take. You should look up Vasili Arkhipov. This situation actually happened, and he pretty much single-handedly saved the world.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:39
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That guy clearly had ties to Al Gebra.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:40
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NewForumSoftware posted:Wow didn't realize we went into DEFCON 2 during the Gulf war, what was that about? If you're talking about Desert Storm the thinking was that Saddam was going to deploy SCUDs tipped with chemical agents at Israel, IIRC. Same for OIF.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:42
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You should look up Vasili Arkhipov. This situation actually happened, and he pretty much single-handedly saved the world. According to Wikipedia, the launch he prevented was the captain assuming a war had broken out because the Americans were dropping depth charges. It wasn't a direct order from the Kremlin.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:42
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Recount for WI begins Thursday. fake edit: 1-800-DOCTORB posted:That guy clearly had ties to Al Gebra. 
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Nov 29, 2016 23:43
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Party Plane Jones posted:If you're talking about Desert Storm the thinking was that Saddam was going to deploy SCUDs tipped with chemical agents at Israel, IIRC. It doesn't look like we went into DEFCON 2 for OIF though? Not saying that wasn't the original justification, hard to find any info about it, seems like it wasn't public knowledge at the time.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:44
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Guy Goodbody posted:According to Wikipedia, the launch he prevented was the captain assuming a war had broken out because the Americans were dropping depth charges. It wasn't a direct order from the Kremlin. They weren't even real depth charges, they were dummy ones intended to signal them to surface but they weren't getting the radio signals from the US ships telling them so.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:44
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There was the time during gulf war 1 that they blew up some huge ammo dump and some Pfc said it was a nuke on open radio so bush had to tell the Russians it wasn't.
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Nov 29, 2016 23:47
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