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Countblanc posted:Absolutely not, unless you're using a definition of that than what I think most people would, which is a pokemon being weak to the same type twice over, like Scizor being "double weak" to fire. I mean like, super effective moves.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:12
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Every Pokemon is double weak to at least one thing right? There are plenty of pokemon that have no 4x weaknesses. In fact, most don't. 4x weaknesses are usually only on pokemon with types that grant a lot of resistances but exaggerate their weaknesses (bug/steel). Or they just have an amazingly terrible type (bug/grass).
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Nov 30, 2016 00:13
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Some Pokémon don't have any weaknesses at all! (Sort of.)
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Nov 30, 2016 00:17
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Just a small point--the ban in UU wasn't statpassing, it was on Baton Pass as a whole. I'm fairly new to Smogon, and also not that good, so my opinion doesn't actually hold that much weight, but I feel like with all the times that Baton Pass had come up as a problem in the past, and how there had been multiple mons sacrificed to BL to keep Baton Pass around, even as they restricted BP further and further, they just wanted to be done with it. Also, I don't quite get why Smogon gets such a bad rap. The tier divisions mean that more pokemon get to have an environment in which they're good (or at least usable). I've been playing RU, where you get things like Cosmic Power+Stored Power Sigilyph (Calm Mind + flying attack I can't remember is better, but still), Alomomola as a dominant force, and DD Scrafty. It means more fun instead of Primal Groudon everywhere.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:20
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Arrgytehpirate posted:I mean like, super effective moves. Technically no, since Elecktross (electric type with innate levitate) exists. But he's not very good and would never be considered for a ban. Like, there are a whole lot of interacting and deliberately non-equal systems in play. Boiling it down to 'pokemon has a weakness right?' doesn't matter if the thing can OHKO you while you're tickling it with super-effective moves. Or if you have to commit two pokemon to take it down every time. Box Legendaries, which are the majority of the bans, just have raw stats above and beyond most pokemon with no drawbacks that the meta would inevitably totally centralize around them. And the ones that aren't box legendaries tend to have really good stats in the areas they need them coupled with an amazing ability like Shadow Tag, Speed Boost, Stance Change etc. Zore fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 00:19
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Arrgytehpirate posted:What determines if something gets banned? Every Pokemon is double weak to at least one thing right? Are the points of bans to avoid the meta being warped through everyone needing to run that counter? Suspect tests are decided upon by the tier leaders in response to community concern. A suspect ladder is then put up on showdown with a certain games+win/loss requirement specified, after which if you "get reqs" you get to vote whether something stays or goes The latter part is sort of correct. The BP example people were talking about a few pages ago is maybe the best one. Counter play to Full BP chains (the one banned in xy) were insanely limited - haze is poorly distributed and on a lot of niche mons. You surely could prepare a team to deal with a full BP threat, but you'd be really clearly weakening yourself to more standard builds, and BP chains often had counters to BP counter play and could afford the extra moveslots more than a traditional team. More traditional bans such as say greninja were simply because the mon was way too good. There were astonishingly few counters to it, most of which offer little outside specifically countering greninja. Essentially you were at a preview disadvantage more often than not if you didn't run greninja (or aegislash which is the big one - I've yet to see a single team in gen 7 that wouldn't be better with an aegi) Bans increase the diversity of the metagame because otherwise u start centralizing around the broken poo poo (see how same-y ubers is in oras) or you just cross ur fingers and hope you don't play something that'd be disproportionately absurd to prep for (full BP)
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Nov 30, 2016 00:23
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Arrgytehpirate posted:What determines if something gets banned? Every Pokemon is double weak to at least one thing right? Are the points of bans to avoid the meta being warped through everyone needing to run that counter? Pretty much. Klefki is a good example--it went up to OU back when Swagger was legal (raises opponents attack two stages, confuses them). So what you would do is run Prankster Klefki, with Swagger, Thunder Wave, Spikes, and Foul Play. So first it will paralyze you with priority, then it would confuse you (also with priority). If you tried to keep your pokemon in and struggle through two levels of having your turn blanked, it would take the time to drop some layers of entry hazards before using your own boosted attack to kill you. If you switch (onto spikes), you get paralyzed, confused, and the process continues. Sure, Klefki's weak to fire, but it didn't matter, and it was incredibly obnoxious to play against. So they banned Swagger, and Klefki was... well, still quite good. But it slowly dropped off, and now it's fallen back into UU.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:25
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I get the sleep ban but what about like Aegislash since it was specifically mentioned? What makes it so powerful? It's Steel/Ghost so Earthquake which seems to be a super popular competitive move would do 2x on it.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:26
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The Lord of Hats posted:Just a small point--the ban in UU wasn't statpassing, it was on Baton Pass as a whole. I'm fairly new to Smogon, and also not that good, so my opinion doesn't actually hold that much weight, but I feel like with all the times that Baton Pass had come up as a problem in the past, and how there had been multiple mons sacrificed to BL to keep Baton Pass around, even as they restricted BP further and further, they just wanted to be done with it. I think Smogon's method of tiering is great for those reasons, the problem I have with them is mostly with the people who make up the heavy hitters in OU discussion and banning. It's circle-jerky and whiny, not to mention incredibly hypocritical when it comes to things they like getting exempt from critical review when they otherwise would. It's also too monolithic. There are virtually no options for competitive singles battling other than Smogon rules, and that's kind of a problem.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:26
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The Lord of Hats posted:Also, I don't quite get why Smogon gets such a bad rap. The tier divisions mean that more pokemon get to have an environment in which they're good (or at least usable). I've been playing RU, where you get things like Cosmic Power+Stored Power Sigilyph (Calm Mind + flying attack I can't remember is better, but still), Alomomola as a dominant force, and DD Scrafty. It means more fun instead of Primal Groudon everywhere. This is probably projecting to some degree, but back when I first started battling back in gen 3 (mostly with people from this thread's IRC) we laughed at smogon because they were tryhards, though that word didn't really exist at the time. It didn't matter if they were right about something - not if any given ban was good or not, just "this mon is good, this one is bad" - it was just that they put in more effort than most of us and a lot of us were also teens high on the "they're our FRIENDS not TOOLS lol" stuff. Basic Us vs Them stuff. I remember Jumpman coming into the thread here to be like, the loving nicest guy ever and basically explain in great detail why smogon operated like it did just like tbp is doing now, but most people shat on him just because he had the audacity to write multiple sentences about a thing he enjoyed, or wrote them about the wrong aspect of said thing (competitive battling vs idk fanart). Some if it is just nerds making GBS threads on other nerds because everyone needs someone lower on the totem pole than them. Most people who talk about smogon here don't really know much about it or get lots of things wrong, like the way people talk about tiers here often reminds me of how people don't understand how tax brackets work but boy do they have opinions on them. That doesn't mean smogon's method of play is the best fit for everyone but a lot of the criticism seems to come from people without who haven't really tried to learn about it rather than within. Even when people ask about it out of what is probably genuine curiosity it's usually phrased in a way that makes it sound like they already think they're stupid nerds.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:28
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The Shortest Path posted:I think Smogon's method of tiering is great for those reasons, the problem I have with them is mostly with the people who make up the heavy hitters in OU discussion and banning. It's circle-jerky and whiny, not to mention incredibly hypocritical when it comes to things they like getting exempt from critical review when they otherwise would. Any people in particular? I'm quite good friends with most of the big OUers and the council, I think for the most part they're doing a fairly good job but is be interested in outside opinion Ftr I am not on the council but I was on Uu council for most of ORAS, got kicked off when they realized I didn't actually play UU anymore (tho I got finals in Uu open and went 8-1 in SPL lol) . I am a tournament director tho so it's a fair amount of the same circles
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Nov 30, 2016 00:29
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The Lord of Hats posted:Also, I don't quite get why Smogon gets such a bad rap. The tier divisions mean that more pokemon get to have an environment in which they're good (or at least usable). I've been playing RU, where you get things like Cosmic Power+Stored Power Sigilyph (Calm Mind + flying attack I can't remember is better, but still), Alomomola as a dominant force, and DD Scrafty. It means more fun instead of Primal Groudon everywhere. e: are you loving kidding me, they banned SWAGGER? although maybe they're revisiting that with the confusion+prankster nerfs this gen? What the hell?
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Nov 30, 2016 00:30
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tbp while I have you here what's the best way to get into competitive? Do I just pick a tier, browse the teams forum and then breed that up? How do I find people to battle? Do I post my FC somewhere on Smogon?
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Nov 30, 2016 00:32
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I have never been able to understand a group of people that claims to want to remove "unfun" elements of the metagame, and never laid a finger on Stealth Rock.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:32
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Btw I fed agree with countblanc a lot - also to some extent I forgive a lot of the annoying people on smogon because there are a good portion of younger users and I remember being a nightmare in my teens online (see my 60 or so SA bans lol). I am probably colored a bit because I stick almost exclusively to tournaments which is an older demographic, the TD team for example is like 24 on average, so it's more what I'd expect in peer to peer interaction
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Nov 30, 2016 00:32
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Arrgytehpirate posted:I get the sleep ban but what about like Aegislash since it was specifically mentioned? What makes it so powerful? It's Steel/Ghost so Earthquake which seems to be a super popular competitive move would do 2x on it. Well, yeah you'd think that but check this out 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 299-354 (92.2 - 109.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO That's one of the strongest Earthquakes you can throw at Aegislash in the game and it isn't guaranteed to KO it. And Aegislash has a ridiculously good ability that makes it one of the tankiest pokemon in the game and also one of the strongest mixed attackers so it can take strong attacks and usually KO whatever dished it out right back. Plus it gets its own special version of Protect that lowers the opponent's attack if the move makes contact. Plus it has three immunities and a number of ways to safely switch in and out along with 5 or 6 viable sets that don't actually share the same counters. Its just a really powerful, really versatile pokemon that isn't easy to answer. Personally, I'm not sure it should be banned (Scizor in Gen IV was in a very similar position in Gen IV and wasn't) but I don't play OU on Smogon enough to vote so 
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Nov 30, 2016 00:33
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Zore posted:Well, yeah you'd think that but check this out Oh. Does GF think about these things when they make the game or do they just make whatever and leave it to the community to figure things out? Is there a ban list in VCG? I mean I could probably just google that but if something is as absurd as Aegislash, clearly it would dominate VCG and make it unfun thus needing a ban?
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Nov 30, 2016 00:35
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Is there a ban list in VCG? Yes, but it usually has nothing to do with balance.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:37
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tbp posted:Any people in particular? I'm quite good friends with most of the big OUers and the council, I think for the most part they're doing a fairly good job but is be interested in outside opinion It's been long enough that I don't remember names, but the one guy who whined until Excadrill got put up for suspect testing multiple times in a row to successive overwhelming no votes until enough people were sick of it that they voted yes so he'd shut up is a good example. I also mean more the general culture than anyone in specific. Stealth Rock was overwhelmingly oppressive and dominant for most of gens 4-6 (and probably still will be) and any time it was brought up to be looked at as a problem was met with "lol stop trying to use bad pokemon like charizard" because a lot of the OU people like it, despite other things that were much less metagame-warping (Baton Pass, Shadow Tag) being banned on similar grounds. There's the idea that there's only one acceptable way for the game to be played and anything that shakes up how you need to approach teambuilding gets axed. Shadow Tag is a good example of that actually, a lot of the reasoning for its ban was along the lines of it being "not what pokemon is about" or some such other nonsense. And then banning Swagger for being "unfun" while, again, Stealth Rock is also left in and such. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 00:37
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Oh. Does GF think about these things when they make the game or do they just make whatever and leave it to the community to figure things out? Is there a ban list in VCG? I mean I could probably just google that but if something is as absurd as Aegislash, clearly it would dominate VCG and make it unfun thus needing a ban?
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Nov 30, 2016 00:37
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I get stealth rock in a 6v6 meta since it'd be ideal to have something to hit flying things when spikes don't work and switching is a large part of the game and you want something to speed it up/make it more of a risk. But I will never understand it using the full type effectiveness chart rather than just 2x things in the air or something.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:37
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Dizz posted:
Added you. My IGN is Dienes, FC is 3325-2243-4082
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Nov 30, 2016 00:38
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Oh. Does GF think about these things when they make the game or do they just make whatever and leave it to the community to figure things out? Is there a ban list in VCG? I mean I could probably just google that but if something is as absurd as Aegislash, clearly it would dominate VCG and make it unfun thus needing a ban? VGC has a huge problem with over-centralization. Check out the teams from last year http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/2003-teams-from-the-2016-pok%C3%A9mon-world-championships/ Usually its better because Gamefreak bans the most powerful Legendaries, but check out the cores when they let anything in. Even in other years though, there are always major issues where Gamefreak doesn't really ban anything which leads to things like Mega-Khangaskhan killing everying, or Mega-Gengar running rampant. http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/teams/masters/ Every single team here ran Landorus-T, all but two ran M-Kanga and about half rand Aegislash.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:39
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Oh. Does GF think about these things when they make the game or do they just make whatever and leave it to the community to figure things out? Is there a ban list in VCG? I mean I could probably just google that but if something is as absurd as Aegislash, clearly it would dominate VCG and make it unfun thus needing a ban? Things that are overpowered in singles often aren't in doubles due to the nature of each format. In doubles you can throw a lot of damage at something very quickly since you can feasibly have two attackers on the field at once, meaning Aegislash's tremendous bulk is significantly less so (especially since his only means of HP recovery is Leftovers coupled with King's Shield mindgames). Additionally VGC often allows Pokemon that are even more oppressive than that to enter the fray, meaning while Aegislash is super super good in the current 1v1 meta, it may not be if that meta included things like Primal Groudon. To answer your other question regarding gamefreak's methodology, probably all of the above? It also changes based on the era something was designed - Gen 1-3 mons can have different design philosophies than 4+ mons, just because Doubles or official nintendo tournaments didn't really exist then. I'm sure they care about balance but only insomuch as "this thing doesn't literally invalidate every other thing" - I think how mediocre/bad a lot of gen 6 and 7 mons are shows that
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Nov 30, 2016 00:40
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Chain 82 on this Misdreavus and still no goddamn shiny. Is there a trick to getting a good chain? I don't have access to adrenaline orbs yet :c I have literally spent like 8 hours in this one patch of grass trying to get a shiny Misdreavus since I've beat the first island.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:41
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Arrgytehpirate posted:I get the sleep ban but what about like Aegislash since it was specifically mentioned? What makes it so powerful? It's Steel/Ghost so Earthquake which seems to be a super popular competitive move would do 2x on it. That one you need to look at the stats for. In defense form, Aegislash has *150* Def and SpD. In attack form, it has 150 Atk and SpA. To switch from defense to attack, you attack. To switch from attack to defense, you use King's Shield, which is Protect, but also nerfs your attack two stages if you hit it with a contact move. An example set (not the greatest, but I *think* it's similar to what it ran back in OU) is King's Shield, Gyro Ball (minimum speed), Swords Dance, and Shadow Sneak. Thanks to how priority works, you are now faced with what is, essentially, a pokemon with 150 in ALL of those stats. If you outspeed it, and they Gyro ball you, your hit will happen while they're still in defense mode, so they won't take much damage, THEN they switch into ultra offense mode and hit you for a crapload. If you try to follow up with another attack, either they can Shadow Sneak to finish you off, or Kings Shield to blank your attack and switch back to defense so they can hit you super hard again.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:42
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Kikas posted:Chain 82 on this Misdreavus and still no goddamn shiny. Is there a trick to getting a good chain? I don't have access to adrenaline orbs yet :c It caps at 1/50,000 from what I heard. It's still a huge fuckin shot in the dark. You get adrenaline orbs after the second (or third? I don't remember exactly) trial on the second island, you'd be a lot better off going for that.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:43
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DACK FAYDEN posted:As the dude who asked the first question, I have zero problem with tiers! I don't even mind the item clause, and I guess the sleep clause is cool too now that I think more about it. But evasion/ohko bans and the BP clause being anything other than "the move BP is banned in X tiers" confuses the hell outta me. Even stuff like the Shadow Tag ban or whatever I don't really get. Swagger isn't a strong move, but the Klefki SwagPlay set was a problem. You can ban Klefki, and keep Swagger, which isn't used by anyone, or you can ban Swagger and keep Klefki, which people can still find a good use for. Or you can ban Thunder Wave, Foul Play, or Prankster, and have a whole bunch of collateral damage and ruin everything.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:45
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Kikas posted:Chain 82 on this Misdreavus and still no goddamn shiny. Is there a trick to getting a good chain? I don't have access to adrenaline orbs yet :c I did five 100+ chains in one day without seeing a shiny, and that was with the Shiny Charm. There's no easy and reliable way to find shinies, but trying to chain for one without Adrenaline Orbs will probably significantly reduce your enjoyment of the game. I'd just wait until I at least had access to the orbs, and maybe even consider breeding instead since that both gives you a better chance (with the Masuda method) and gives you some control over IVs/natures/abilities/ball types.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:46
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The Shortest Path posted:It caps at 1/50,000 from what I heard. It's still a huge fuckin shot in the dark. 
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Nov 30, 2016 00:48
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Clearly I heard very wrong then. 
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Nov 30, 2016 00:49
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The Lord of Hats posted:Swagger isn't a strong move, but the Klefki SwagPlay set was a problem. You can ban Klefki, and keep Swagger, which isn't used by anyone, or you can ban Swagger and keep Klefki, which people can still find a good use for. Or you can ban Thunder Wave, Foul Play, or Prankster, and have a whole bunch of collateral damage and ruin everything. Whatever. TOTALLY UNRELATED: Which berry piles have the EV lowering berries? I wanna grow a stockpile so I can save my FC for other stuff.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:50
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Bleck posted:I have never been able to understand a group of people that claims to want to remove "unfun" elements of the metagame, and never laid a finger on Stealth Rock. That's pretty much the core hypocrisy of Smogon. Stealth rock is on literally every singles team. They've banned tons of stuff for being too prevalent or centralizing, but not that. I don't get why singles players love their entry hazards so much but whatever floats their boat. Arrgytehpirate posted:Oh. Does GF think about these things when they make the game or do they just make whatever and leave it to the community to figure things out? Is there a ban list in VCG? I mean I could probably just google that but if something is as absurd as Aegislash, clearly it would dominate VCG and make it unfun thus needing a ban? The VGC ruleset changes every year to encourage the formation of new teams and strategies, focused on whatever new Pokemon game was released last. The ban list usually excludes legendaries with big stat totals, but not always. Also its usually not balanced in the slightest in the sense that the top teams are very homogeneous. This year you run a Tapu or get hosed because there's no way to win the terrain war without one. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 00:51
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Right, but... why not just ban Klefki there? Like, sure, people can find a use for it, but you could say the same about Swagger, it's just less likely. I think you answered your own question.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:51
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Success! She finally spawned, the RNG gods hate me tonight.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:52
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Zore posted:Sort of like how Dedenne doesn't learn any special Fairy moves and literally cannot get one because Hidden Power doesn't do fairy. It's almost as if pikaclones suck or something. Mimikyu excluded because it rules.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:52
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Countblanc posted:I think you answered your own question.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:53
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Internet Kraken posted:That's pretty much the core hypocrisy of Smogon. Stealth rock is on literally every singles team. They've banned tons of stuff for being too prevalent or centralizing, but not that. That's the thing, a lot of singles players don't love entry hazards, but they aren't part of the smogon clique and are thus ignored and there's nowhere else to go. Not enough organization to set up an alternative for people who want something different, I guess. If SR had much lower distribution, or didn't do massive damage to things with a 4x rock weakness, it would probably be fine like Spikes and Toxic Spikes are. Alas. DACK FAYDEN posted:Right, but... why not just ban Klefki there? Like, sure, people can find a use for it, but you could say the same about Swagger, it's just less likely. I don't get why you wouldn't just use the existing tiers-of-Pokemon system. Even better, they could just ban Swagger on Klefki if it's such a problem. Much like they could ban Speed Boost on Blaziken so he could still be used in UU or whatever, but they don't because ??? I'm fairly sure their reasoning against that is they want their bans to be simple, but the whole Baton Pass debacle spits in the face of that.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:54
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DACK FAYDEN posted:TOTALLY UNRELATED: Which berry piles have the EV lowering berries? I wanna grow a stockpile so I can save my FC for other stuff.
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Nov 30, 2016 00:54
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Arrgytehpirate posted:tbp while I have you here what's the best way to get into competitive? Do I just pick a tier, browse the teams forum and then breed that up? How do I find people to battle? Do I post my FC somewhere on Smogon? Real talk PM me here or on smogon (username : teal6) and I'll help you out, there's tons of ways and good communities in almost any avenue that you find to your liking
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Nov 30, 2016 00:55
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