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cargohills posted:that's not what canon refers to Is canon not a body of interconnected works?
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Nov 29, 2016 15:08
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I don't get why people latch so hard onto the whole "The Empire is racist" thing. That itself was a product of the EU. The only instance of imperial racism I can recall is the supervising officer of Cell Block 1138 calling Chewie "a thing". I guess the other possible sign is that there are no obvious non human imperials on screen? But that is true for the Rebellion too for the first two movies and even much of RotJ (Han's commando team is all human men for example).
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Nov 29, 2016 15:22
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I don't get why people latch so hard onto the whole "The Empire is racist" thing. That itself was a product of the EU. The only instance of imperial racism I can recall is the supervising officer of Cell Block 1138 calling Chewie "a thing". I guess the other possible sign is that there are no obvious non human imperials on screen? But that is true for the Rebellion too for the first two movies and even much of RotJ (Han's commando team is all human men for example). The enslavement of the wookies, human high culture, the fact they are clearly Nazis...
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Nov 29, 2016 15:33
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I don't remember wookie enslavement being mentioned in the movies. Chewie is the only wookie in the OT. Were they carting them away in cages at the end of RotS? I genuinely don't remember. The culture thing is there but the new Tarkin novel portrays/interprets it as more of a "Posh Core Worlders vs frontiersmen" angle. So it doesn't have to automatically mean racism. As for the Nazi comparison that's always an easy (and often stylish) visual shorthand for "these guys are evil" bit it doesn't have to automatically mean they're racist. Especially after they've already shown off their genocidal side by blowing up an entire populated planet. A planet which was, using Leia and her crew if Alderanneans as our only examples, probably mostly humans. I just don't get why people dislike the concept of alien imperials so much. Hell if you want to stick to the Nazi analogues he's Vichy French. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 15:43
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I don't remember wookie enslavement being mentioned in the movies. Chewie is the only wookie in the OT. Were they carting them away in cages at the end of RotS? I genuinely don't remember. Don't Luke and Han put Chewie in chains and pretend he's an escaped slave on the death star? I could be misremembering.
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Nov 29, 2016 15:45
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No they tell the officer he is a "prisoner transfer" from another cell block.
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Nov 29, 2016 15:51
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There's the Geonosian genocide, but that was more a case of the King killing all the engineers who built the secret tunnels in his palace, since they were the ones who designed and built all of the early Deathstar prototypes, in those big orbital gantries. Take the EU direct references out, and I think the 'racist empire' is more an unintended function of not enough budget for costumes, and writers creating homogeneous planet populations the same way they've made every planet a single biome.
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Nov 29, 2016 16:06
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They are clearly Nazis and the only non-humans you see on Imperial ships are prisoners or garbage-monsters. Not to get all SMG, but in Star Wars aliens are always seedy. You've got the multiracial cantina (A wretched hive of scum and villainy) and the Jawas (trash gypsies). But by RoTJ you've got a multiracial rebellion going against the (still exclusively human, still Nazi) Empire. It's pretty obvious. Especially if you look at a lot of the pulp and noir sources that Lucas likes to borrow from. I agree "Nazi" is used as a shorthand for "evil" but why are Nazis evil? It's not like Hollywood has a problem with rampant militarism, so it can't be that.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:52
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Shbobdb posted:Ignore me like the whiny baby that I am. Can do, sir!
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Nov 30, 2016 00:52
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oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I don't remember wookie enslavement being mentioned in the movies. Chewie is the only wookie in the OT. Were they carting them away in cages at the end of RotS? I genuinely don't remember. It was common playground knowledge in the mid-to-late '80s. It had to come from somewhere. I'm guessing the toy packages or trading cards. Or kids figured it out because Nazis are racist.
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Nov 30, 2016 02:44
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Shbobdb posted:It was common playground knowledge in the mid-to-late '80s. It had to come from somewhere. I'm guessing the toy packages or trading cards. Or kids figured it out because Nazis are racist. It probably started in the tabletop and was picked up in the rest of the EU after that.
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Nov 30, 2016 03:06
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It probably started in the tabletop and was picked up in the rest of the EU after that. Even at the height of tabletop gaming it was a pretty small audience. I suppose all it takes is one nerdy older brother for the whole playground to know.
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Nov 30, 2016 03:12
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Tbf it is new canon. Wasn't the pilot for this show them rescuing wookiee slaves from Kessel?
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Nov 30, 2016 03:25
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Yeah but the criticism is that the new canon is hobbling itself by crimping from the old EU.
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Nov 30, 2016 03:31
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What would be the actual detriment for making the Empire racist? God forbid the Space Nazis have backwards ideas about species supremacy.
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Nov 30, 2016 03:37
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On a topic not related to how the canon is apparently bad, I thought the new episode was pretty fun. Hondo was great as usual,and we even got to see Alan Rickman-Bot again.
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Nov 30, 2016 03:54
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bunnyofdoom posted:Tbf it is new canon. Wasn't the pilot for this show them rescuing wookiee slaves from Kessel? New canon is still canon and is still a loving toxic idea. No gods, no masters.
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Nov 30, 2016 04:48
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But how do you resolve disagreements over backstory, when those backstories are used to create context and motivation for characters in other works? Without a system of canon you don't have a coherent universe and you end up with the ridiculous poo poo you see in comics.
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Nov 30, 2016 04:53
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Shbobdb posted:New canon is still canon and is still a loving toxic idea. I'd like to shoot you out of a canon
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Nov 30, 2016 05:49
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:But how do you resolve disagreements over backstory, when those backstories are used to create context and motivation for characters in other works? Without a system of canon you don't have a coherent universe and you end up with the ridiculous poo poo you see in comics. No see those are just constraints the dullards use to keep the creative souls down, man.
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Nov 30, 2016 06:12
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:But how do you resolve disagreements over backstory, when those backstories are used to create context and motivation for characters in other works? Without a system of canon you don't have a coherent universe and you end up with the ridiculous poo poo you see in comics. You mean you end up with a fun, imagination-positive universe where people can choose which and what aspects they like? Traveling poets would always make small changes to the narrative, incorporating local heroes and locations. The stories were the same but who precisely did what would change. Who cares? I don't care if Campbellian archetype Han Solo was a bed wetter as a child unless his uncontrolled bladder is Chekhov's Gun and does something cool later in that story. In another story where Campbellian archetype Han Solo is doing something different, why should I care about a specific aspect designed to teach a certain lesson and solve a certain problem? I hate to break it to you but Han Solo isn't real. He's not a real person. His context and motivations can change while still being the same person. Look at Odysseus.
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Nov 30, 2016 07:36
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This isn't a single writer changing his own story, nor is it a single tale being rewritten with minor changes by new authors across several centuries of evolution, your examples are nonsensical. Canon comes from religion, where a committee of Rabbis or Priests determined which texts were authoritative and which were not, in order to maintain internal consistency across multiple authors. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 08:09
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NTRabbit posted:This isn't a single writer changing his own story, nor is it a single tale being rewritten with minor changes by new authors across several centuries of evolution, your examples are nonsensical. Yeah and that's a dumb as gently caress concept to apply to popular fiction.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:14
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Shbobdb posted:Yeah and that's a dumb as gently caress concept to apply to popular fiction. No, it's not.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:15
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What's wrong with internal consistency?
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Nov 30, 2016 08:15
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NTRabbit posted:No, it's not. Why do you like it? What does it provide?
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Nov 30, 2016 08:16
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Shbobdb posted:Why do you like it? What does it provide? Continuity
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Nov 30, 2016 08:18
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:What's wrong with internal consistency? Because it shrinks the universe. There is a reason why every Star Wars character ends up hanging out with every other Star Wars character. It's a normal part of lovely genre fiction because turbonerds love canon. Nebbish nerds joined the clergy so the clergy became a system that appealed to nebbish bookworms. Recreating that system in the modern world is stupid dumb.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:19
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NTRabbit posted:Continuity Why is that good? What's the appeal?
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Nov 30, 2016 08:19
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Shbobdb posted:Why is that good? What's the appeal? Clearly it doesn't appeal to you, and it never will, so there's little point in trying to explain why I like a thing and you don't like.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:20
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NTRabbit posted:Clearly it doesn't appeal to you, and it never will, so there's little point in trying to explain why I like a thing and you don't like. Weak. Either have opinions or don't.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:21
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Ahaha, I've heard of nerds arguing over canon, but I've never heard of nerds arguing against the very concept of canon.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:21
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What better place for an argument like that than a Star Wars threadShbobdb posted:Weak. Either have opinions or don't. I completely understand the red text now NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 08:28
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Shbobdb posted:Because it shrinks the universe. There is a reason why every Star Wars character ends up hanging out with every other Star Wars character. It's a normal part of lovely genre fiction because turbonerds love canon. C3PO is Anakin's droid and R2D2 served on Amidala's ship. The universe is the size of a thimble in the movies and the EU. It's hardly a problem of canon.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:31
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:C3PO is Anakin's droid and R2D2 served on Amidala's ship. The universe is the size of a thimble in the movies and the EU. It's hardly a problem of canon. The prequels don't count. Nobody likes the prequels. One of the things I like about Rebels, The Force Awakens and (seemingly) Rogue One is that the Prequels basically don't exist. Clone Wars exists for Rebels but Clone Wars is fine (though it too is a hodge-podge of things worth loving and things worth ignoring).
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Nov 30, 2016 08:36
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NTRabbit posted:What better place for an argument like that than a Star Wars thread I like the edits. Little baby need a binky? It's almost Life Day. I'm sure we could chip in and get you one as a goon project.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:37
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Shbobdb posted:The prequels don't count. Nobody likes the prequels. One of the things I like about Rebels, The Force Awakens and (seemingly) Rogue One is that the Prequels basically don't exist. So really what you're saying is you do like canon, you just only like your own head canon, not anything by anyone else, righto
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Nov 30, 2016 08:38
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NTRabbit posted:So really what you're saying is you do like canon, you just only like your own head canon, not anything by anyone else, righto LOL. Swing and a miss.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:43
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Shbobdb posted:LOL. Swing and a miss. Just gently caress off already.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:44
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Sorry I'm ruining your EU fanwank party. Who is the canonical Falstaff? Why do prequels always suck? What is Buddha nature? These questions all have the same answer.
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Nov 30, 2016 08:47
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