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doverhog posted:Pilipalitöiden järjestäminen ja työttömien valvominen kasvattaa valtion menoja. Jos ei ole rahaa nykyjärjestelmään, niin miten sitä riittää osallistamisjärjestelmän luomiseen? Cutting services such as oxygen, water, and gravity, all of which are to be sold off for around 40000€ to the soon-to-be conglomerated Monsanto-Neste-Katera-Sibil consortium WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PRIME MINISTER.
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Nov 28, 2016 15:15
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Howabout we put all politicians in it to just line their and their friends pockets against the wall? What Im saying, full revolution now or a giant meteor
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Nov 28, 2016 15:39
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Patrocclesiastes posted:Howabout we put all politicians in it to just line their and their friends pockets against the wall? Well the thing is that's inevitable. Might not happen in our lifetime but it's not like history doesn't keep repeating itself. (And, of course, every point of time in history has been chock full of people thinking history won't repeat itself this time. I mean people thought fascists wouldn't come to rule ever again and whoops fascists rule most of Europe now less than a century later.)
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Nov 28, 2016 15:43
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doverhog posted:Pilipalitöiden järjestäminen ja työttömien valvominen kasvattaa valtion menoja. Jos ei ole rahaa nykyjärjestelmään, niin miten sitä riittää osallistamisjärjestelmän luomiseen? The idea is to make unemployment less pleasant, hence to incentivize people to find jobs faster. I know the prevailing narrative here is "no jobs  " even though most unemployed people are only unemployed/"inactive" for a few months (definitely less than 6, and these aren't the people being assigned to training etc), meaning that these programs are targeted towards a minority of people who prefer to not work but prefer the higher benefits etc vs toimeentulotuki.
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Nov 28, 2016 16:38
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Ok, great second strawman, but once again it has absolutely nothing to do with having workers do voluntary/unpaid work/training while unemployed It doesn't, but because of legal technicalities and the political atmosphere, that's the way lowering wages and avoiding union oversight is done in Finland. And I can quote multiple economists from respected, non-partisan orgs that directly advise the Finnish government telling countries to free up the labor market and incentivize people to accept lower wages in order to lower unemployment. And those guys are made of flesh, not straw. Please explain, if the leadership of every political party right of Vasemmistoliitto believes it to be true after constantly hearing it from experts around the world, how is it a strawman? Because I implied that they believe it will create full employment, whereas actually they merely believe it will create the next best thing to full employment?
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Nov 28, 2016 17:09
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Geriatric Pirate posted:They don't have to beg or starve. They have to do a little bit of work. Which work and to who? If it's say, taking care of old people, why aren't there jobs for people to take care of old people? If it is to a private company, why doesn't that company just hire someone for a living wage? Let me quote the article: quote:Hakisimme triangelia, jossa kykenisimme näkemään, että hei, jos vaikka työttömyyspäivärahalla oleva työllistetään työpajalla, niin antaa mennä. If someone gets employed at a workshop they are generally called an employee or an worker. Unless she is talking about a KELA workshop which hasn't employed a single person besides the KELA workers who run it. quote:Ja jos tuo laatikko puolestaan antaa syrjäytyvälle nuorelle koulutuksen ja sitä kautta osallisuuden, niin menköön. Getting an education is called ...getting an education. In Finland this means that you get student support, not unemployment support. quote:Työttömän tulisi tehdä päivärahansa eteen jotakin. I do something for my daily money. It's called having a job. I'm not sure how this is different from that except that in this case they get less money then even the minimum wage. quote:Työpajoja tai oppisopimusta voisi tarjota esimerkiksi julkinen sektori, jossa on ”paljon tekemätöntä työtä”. So hire people to do those jobs  quote:Sitä voisi Aaltosen ajatuksissa olla esimerkiksi ympäristöhuollossa – siis siinä kuuluisassa risusavotassa – sekä palvelusektorilla. Both of these sound - and are - actual jobs that people do right now. quote:”Eli vaikka ikääntyneiden elämän rikastuttajina. Sellainen visio minulla on.” So the future leader of KELA doesn't know what the terms "pitkäaikaistyötön" and "syrjäytynyt nuori" usually entail. Which one of them will be enriching the lives of old people? The 22 year old with psychiatric problems? The 55-year old alcoholic? And again WORKING WITH OLD PEOPLE AND ENRICHING THEIR LIVES IS AN ACTUAL JOB FOR FUCKS SAKE Geriatric Pirate posted:The idea is to make unemployment less pleasant, hence to incentivize people to find jobs faster. I know the prevailing narrative here is "no jobs A) Literally a third of unemployed people are unemployed for longer then a year. 58 100 for longer then two years. I guess they're all just awful leeches chilling on their couch, sucking that sweet government tit that I pay for in between drinking and drugs, and if you force them to spend three hours a day with some old coot they'll get right up and get that job! That's the kind of guy I want hanging out with my grandma. http://www.findikaattori.fi/fi/37 B) These people aren't evenly divided around the country and there probably isn't all that loving much for them to do where they live besides hanging out with old people. But sure, let's go to Äänekoski and tell all those old factory dudes to start I don't know, cleaning up parks in Helsinki when the actual park workers take a break or something (I assume that is the famous "risusavotta")?? Even Onnibussi costs like 20e between there and here so that wouldn't really be cost-effective though. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 17:11
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I think the famous "risusavotta" refers to something a Kok let loose in a debate about the economy and unemployment situation. Apparently she had an epiphany riding on the train one day and saw that there is a lot of woods in Finland that need to be cleared, so don't say there are no jobs, just get out there. Que the small article some months later when metsähallinto fired a bunch of forest maintenance people.
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Nov 28, 2016 18:00
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Buffalo squeeze posted:I think the famous "risusavotta" refers to something a Kok let loose in a debate about the economy and unemployment situation. Apparently she had an epiphany riding on the train one day and saw that there is a lot of woods in Finland that need to be cleared, so don't say there are no jobs, just get out there. Que the small article some months later when metsähallinto fired a bunch of forest maintenance people. Haha just googled it. Of course it was Susanna Koski. As an aside, this avenue led me to discovering that apparently slavery was legal in Finland until like the thirties, but only if the slave was an orphaned child, an old person, or a disabled person and I am pretty sure nobody ever told this to me in school 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 18:06
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That book by Halmekoski is really good cum terrifying, if you can get it you should read it goons.
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Nov 28, 2016 18:39
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The idea is to make unemployment less pleasant, hence to incentivize people to find jobs faster. I know the prevailing narrative here is "no jobs So what you're saying is that most people who are unemployed are looking for jobs actively and usually find one in a few months, leaving only the unemployable on benefits. Why would a company hire any current pitkäaikaistyötön simply because you're punishing the person who doesn't have a job? I mean, suppose that I'm the boss of Paskaduuni Oy, why would I hire a mentally ill moron to do a job - even for free - if there's 50 healthy people applying for the same position anyway? Quarterly profits of course, but let's also suppose that as a boss I have an interest in not bankrupting the company while collecting millions in bonuses.
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Nov 28, 2016 19:07
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Did anyone here notice that there was a nation wide public safety alert today? It makes you think of something nefarious, like terrorism or Areva's atomisampo melting down on a trial run or Paavo Väyrynen becoming prime minister after decapitating Sipilä in a cage fight, but no, it was WAY worse - Soñera's networks breaking down so hard that even 112 couldn't be called. So, 1/3rd of Finnish phones went dead in an era when everyone is concerned about cybersafety and hackings. I think maybe this shouldn't be possible, oh well nothing will ever be done about TeliaSonera's problems anyway so this is fine.
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Nov 28, 2016 19:13
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Nenonen posted:Did anyone here notice that there was a nation wide public safety alert today? It makes you think of something nefarious, like terrorism or Areva's atomisampo melting down on a trial run or Paavo Väyrynen becoming prime minister after decapitating Sipilä in a cage fight, but no, it was WAY worse - Soñera's networks breaking down so hard that even 112 couldn't be called. So, 1/3rd of Finnish phones went dead in an era when everyone is concerned about cybersafety and hackings. I think maybe this shouldn't be possible, oh well nothing will ever be done about TeliaSonera's problems anyway so this is fine. A proud customer of Saunalahti  because I'm still on the family plan. I actually have no idea how to get a phone plan, every one of those millions of DNA/ELISA ads might as well be hebrew for me, send help Darkest Auer posted:Quarterly profits of course, but let's also suppose that as a boss I have an interest in not bankrupting the company while collecting millions in bonuses. This is your mistake. Have you seen who they picked to lead Länsimetro? It literally does not matter how terrible you are at your job if you are high enough. You still get payyyeeedd 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 19:46
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Yep, I don't have Sonera for my mobile phone either. I do have Sonera 4G tablet and broadband, though, but I wouldn't dare putting the phone and the other plans on the one and same service providers given past bad experiences when your sole provider goes dead for x hours and you have no means of finding out what is up. I'm all for trying to get all slackers to do whatever oddjobs if everyone including themselves think it could be of use for them - but forcing someone do something useless that they're not interested in doing for a pittance just doesn't sound like it'd work all that well unless there is a cattle prodder drone hovering nearby providing 24/7 video feed to the MOLstapo HQ. I've heard of all kinds of urban legends about people doing risusavotta type of 'work', like one dude who had been watching some city owned sports place for six months until it was discovered that for all that time the guy had been sitting at Veijon baari drinking coffee because the work in itself was too worthless for anyone to bother supervising.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:10
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Basically: if it is something actually useful, society should pay you a living wage for it, and this is how it works for the vast majority of working age Finns - about 92% of them, in fact. Actually, 97% if you calculate the ones that are unemployed for less then a year, if I've read the stats right. I really don't see why we have to bully the measly three percent that for one reason, be it accident in birth, accident in brain chemistry or accident of fate are not employable. Yeah, there are people who abuse the system. There are people who abuse the ENTIRE SYSTEM our way of life is built on because of their accident in birth, brain chemistry or fate and end up with literal millions in profit instead of few hundred a month. I can live with both as long as neither of them are starving to death, and the latter have a bit more to contribute to pay for the former until they reach that. EDIT: Before you say it, I'm more then happy enough for my own taxes to rise too, it's not like I'm living hand to mouth or anything I spend money on real stupid poo poo, like the account to this forum to start with EDIT 2: I've been banned twice too so that's three times the same money DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 20:27
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Nenonen posted:MOLstapo HQ Finnish Politics Megathread II: MOLstapo HQ
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Nov 28, 2016 20:37
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Tbf I don't think more than a third of that 3% is actually incapable of productive work, they're merely not currently competitive at skills that are needed. It would not be that difficult to design a job that could accommodate for example someone with moderate depression, but depressed people are unreliable & look bad so the free market won't do it until it runs out of easier people to employ. I'm pretty sure we used to have jobs for people like that until we decided they should rather stew in unemployment until they get accepted for a pension. Same with old people whose professions ceased to exist.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:56
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uncop posted:Tbf I don't think more than a third of that 3% is actually incapable of productive work, they're merely not currently competitive at skills that are needed. The three percent are the third. I think our unemployment is around 9% now? I never said they aren't capable of productive work, but that they are unemployable in our modern context. You could hire the lot of them no matter what issues they have and build a railway pretty fast if it was 1870 and so on, but that isn't really a job done by dudes with hammers these days. The thing is, almost every uncomplicated physical way a human can be productive has been co-opted by machines, or will be in few decades, and the complicated poo poo is not something you can just take up, you need actual talent and the right genes. I mean there is the old adage about a liberal arts degree dude not finding any job but 99% of those dudes just gently caress around for a while until they get a job because if you can graduate from an university you can get a job. They're the temporary unemployed people. The long-time unemployed people, barring a small minority with their own specific causes, are mainly people with serious issues. uncop posted:It would not be that difficult to design a job that could accommodate for example someone with moderate depression, but depressed people are unreliable & look bad so the free market won't do it until it runs out of easier people to employ. I'm pretty sure we used to have jobs for people like that until we decided they should rather stew in unemployment until they get accepted for a pension. Same with old people whose professions ceased to exist. Tons of people with moderate depression are employed. Most of them, really. The problem really isn't with people who have moderate depression. Which is kinda the problem if you're asking them to "enrich the lives of old people" they got their own poo poo to deal with in order to make someone else's life better.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:12
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uncop posted:Tbf I don't think more than a third of that 3% is actually incapable of productive work, they're merely not currently competitive at skills that are needed. It would not be that difficult to design a job that could accommodate for example someone with moderate depression, but depressed people are unreliable & look bad so the free market won't do it until it runs out of easier people to employ. I'm pretty sure we used to have jobs for people like that until we decided they should rather stew in unemployment until they get accepted for a pension. Same with old people whose professions ceased to exist. Also y'know companies like a group of unemployed people so they can drive wages down. This creates externalities such as long-term unemployed, increased benefit use (see rent assistance) and people who need to use unemployment funds to keep alive... ... but these externalities are paid for by the state and not the companies because they're indeed externalities. The Free Market optimizing for best solution for the state and not the companies only applies if there's no information or power discrepancies. As it is, if you get caught in the machinery, you get ground up. 
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Nov 28, 2016 21:13
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The only people I've known who liked being unemployed were ex-Nokia engineers who were given a gigantic pile of money as a farewell gift Really makes u think
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Nov 28, 2016 22:40
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endlessmonotony posted:The Free Market optimizing for best solution for the state and not the companies only applies if there's no information or power discrepancies. As it is, if you get caught in the machinery, you get ground up. Free Market Capitalism, like every major failed world-spanning ideology of the past 300 years or so, is going to get brought down by a bunch of pissed of Europeans with nothing to lose Unless we all speak Mandarin by then!
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Nov 28, 2016 22:52
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Relevant content from the Comic Strip Megathread: 
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Nov 29, 2016 21:09
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http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/kotimaa/paaministeri-sipila-vaiensi-ylen-uutisten-johto-hyllytti-sipila-jutut-ruben-stiller-sai-varoituksen/ Voitasko Sipilä ja koko Keskusta tuhota
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Nov 30, 2016 08:46
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Patrocclesiastes posted:http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/kotimaa/paaministeri-sipila-vaiensi-ylen-uutisten-johto-hyllytti-sipila-jutut-ruben-stiller-sai-varoituksen/ Seriously YLE wtf 
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Nov 30, 2016 09:10
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Wow, Lawrence Rocky turns out to be even less competent than Jungner
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Nov 30, 2016 09:53
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Nov 30, 2016 09:56
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Patrocclesiastes posted:http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/kotimaa/paaministeri-sipila-vaiensi-ylen-uutisten-johto-hyllytti-sipila-jutut-ruben-stiller-sai-varoituksen/ Why...why would Sipilä do this? Nobody would have given a poo poo about this in a week, max. Now about eleven billion news articles, opposition comments and angry blog posts about DICTATORIAL MEDIA INTERFERENCE!!! have burst out like demons from Pandora's box. The original issue was nothing compared to this. Did he channel Trump for a night or something As always this government just leaves me baffled.
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Nov 30, 2016 12:18
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DarkCrawler posted:Why...why would Sipilä do this? Nobody would have given a poo poo about this in a week, max. Now about eleven billion news articles, opposition comments and angry blog posts about DICTATORIAL MEDIA INTERFERENCE!!! have burst out like demons from Pandora's box. The original issue was nothing compared to this. Did he channel Trump for a night or something Dude, are you still at the stage where you don't expect our current government to gently caress up as spectacularly as possible at every opportunity?
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Nov 30, 2016 12:32
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Sipilä live http://areena.yle.fi/1-3857046
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Nov 30, 2016 13:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:Dude, are you still at the stage where you don't expect our current government to gently caress up as spectacularly as possible at every opportunity? I guess I am just impressed by how good they are at it so consistently! EDIT: http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9325315 quote:Lähettämissään viesteissä Sipilä kertoi luottamuksensa Yleä kohtaan olevan nolla. Nyt hän sanoo suhteiden olevan kunnossa. 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 13:26
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DarkCrawler posted:Why...why would Sipilä do this? Nobody would have given a poo poo about this in a week, max. Now about eleven billion news articles, opposition comments and angry blog posts about DICTATORIAL MEDIA INTERFERENCE!!! have burst out like demons from Pandora's box. The original issue was nothing compared to this. Did he channel Trump for a night or something Because Juha Sipilä is a loving poo poo and thin-skinned leader. A prime minister who has no idea how to deal with adversial factions that are out of his direct control is a bad thing. He approaches every single minor thing so strongly and heavy-handedly that it immediately raises alarms across the board, yet is notoriously difficult to reach to explain his antics. Then he gets offended that people are actually suspicious of him yet he does poo poo to actually regain any sort of trust. I don't even believe it's malice, I believe the man simply does not understand how democratic institutions work.
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Nov 30, 2016 13:49
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I can trust yle
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Nov 30, 2016 13:49
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El Perkele posted:Because Juha Sipilä is a loving poo poo and thin-skinned leader. A prime minister who has no idea how to deal with adversial factions that are out of his direct control is a bad thing. He approaches every single minor thing so strongly and heavy-handedly that it immediately raises alarms across the board, yet is notoriously difficult to reach to explain his antics. Then he gets offended that people are actually suspicious of him yet he does poo poo to actually regain any sort of trust. Sometimes it seems that he doesn't understand how people work, though. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 14:16
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Far more troubling than Sipilä being a poo poo rear end wannabe dictator is that YLE apparently did as they were told and self censored, going so far as to threaten to fire Stiller if he included the topic in the next Pressiklubi.
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Nov 30, 2016 14:46
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DarkCrawler posted:
He is an engineer after all.
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Nov 30, 2016 15:11
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If Juha Sipilä understood any aspect of being human he wouldn't be in loving Kepu which is a political party for literal monsters.
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Nov 30, 2016 15:13
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Sipilä's reaction is fairly understandable to me (still dumb though) but how did anyone at YLE think it was a good idea to act on his stupid tantrum?
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Nov 30, 2016 15:30
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The dude responsible for the decision in YLE is apparently Kepu too so...
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Nov 30, 2016 15:32
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Basically, both Atte Jääskeläinen and Sipilä are bad at their jobs and should resign. Sipilä's behaviour is definitely Trumpian, all down to the late night
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Nov 30, 2016 16:48
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Not the first time Stiller gets fired from calling someone a kepulainen kökkötraktori.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:37
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38155965 Suomi mainittu ulkomailla, torille
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