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It is easy to dismiss Trump voters are idiots, but stupid to do so. Trump told them the lies they wanted to hear. But not all of his supporters are die hards. When he fails to deliver his promises they will abandon him.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:31
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Phone posted:You asked what identity politics should be abandoned. What were you expecting? well some people seem very strident about it and in the interests of facilitating the discourse i want to know precisely what the hell it is that we are discussing! i doubt its as simple as "look! George Clooney!" NewForumSoftware posted:it's not so much decrying it or anything like that as it is about running a campaign based on "we're not running a misogynist racist" instead of "we're going to take on corporate America to fix things for Americans". Ironically Donald Trump ran on the second and won even if most liberals don't venture outside their media bubble to realize it. Probably something to do with HRC just running endless ads with DJT talking instead of actually saying something positive. Clinton ran on both. you could argue that she lacked credibility on the latter, but it was present.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:32
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Xae posted:It is easy to dismiss Trump voters are idiots, but stupid to do so. No one who comments on Drudge tweets is a persuadable potential Democrat.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:34
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Xae posted:It is easy to dismiss Trump voters are idiots, but stupid to do so.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:34
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Xae posted:It is easy to dismiss Trump voters are idiots, but stupid to do so. What if he tells them they that he delivered on twitter and since facts have no meaning it doesn't matter if he did or not?
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Nov 30, 2016 17:34
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Inferior Third Season posted:They are idiots. The lesson to learn is that Democrats should also start blatantly lying to them and promising things that can't be delivered. It's insanely hosed up but I really don't see any other alternative going forward either. In the post fact world whats the point of hamstringing yourself w/ the truth?
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Nov 30, 2016 17:35
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mcmagic posted:What if he tells them they that he delivered on twitter and since facts have no meaning it doesn't matter if he did or not? hopefully news agencies will call him out on his lies and at least some of that will eventually sink in. I have no doubt there will be some small number of people supporting him no matter what though.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:36
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paranoid randroid posted:Clinton ran on both. you could argue that she lacked credibility on the latter, but it was present. did you watch a campaign ad during the last month of the election? you can't "run on both", if she wanted to be taken seriously she needed to give voters a reason to believe her, not give voters a reason to think Trump's an idiot she had enough work to do to convince people she's liberal and not a centrist pro-corporate democrat (ie reality) and just chose not to do it because Trump was so bad NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 17:38
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I'm already seeing him take credit for Ford not moving (when they said they weren't after he lied that they were) and Carrier not moving 1000 jobs before he's even sworn in. Trump will literally take credit for everything good that happens from now until 2020 and I really don't have a lot of faith in anyone calling him on any of it outside of news outlets no one cares about.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:40
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paranoid randroid posted:well some people seem very strident about it and in the interests of facilitating the discourse i want to know precisely what the hell it is that we are discussing! i doubt its as simple as "look! George Clooney!" On the first point, are you seriously thinking that "racial, religious, and sexual minorities need to take a knee" is an acceptable response? I don't care if the DNC is brought to you by Beats By Dre or that Arianna Grande wants to let you know that voting for Democrats is not only cool, but neato, too. Clinton ran on "more of the same" which is what? Four more years of wealth funneling to the top? Four more years of Congress not doing their job? Four more years of assertions that the President isn't legitimate due to some bullshit wiki wormhole? It definitely wasn't "I'm going to make things tangibly better for you" it was "I'm not a cheeto colored TV reality star".
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Nov 30, 2016 17:40
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NewForumSoftware posted:did you watch a campaign ad during the last month of the election? I don't think it would've mattered if she had run more issue based ads. She was too personally disliked.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:40
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mcmagic posted:It's so clear with Trump's team of billionaires that the democrats need to make class politics front and center going forward. It's a great opening but I don't know if the Chuck Schumer led party can seize it... No, it's Trump who famously advocates seizing openings.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:40
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Xae posted:It is easy to dismiss Trump voters are idiots, but stupid to do so. Yes that is how human nature works. Once people realize they have been conned they calmly and rationally modify their beliefs.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:41
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Nietzschean posted:No, it's Trump who famously advocates seizing openings. Boooooooooo
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Nov 30, 2016 17:41
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mcmagic posted:I don't think it would've mattered if she had run more issue based ads. She was too personally disliked. She was a bad candidate. But she probably could have won if she ran a half-competent campaign.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:41
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NewForumSoftware posted:She was a bad candidate. But she probably could have won if she ran a half-competent campaign. This election was ruined by Niantic not turning polling stations into Poke Stops!!!!
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Nov 30, 2016 17:42
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NewForumSoftware posted:She was a bad candidate. But she probably could have won if she ran a half-competent campaign. There are about 35 "if/but/for's." Edit: Pelosi wins 134-63
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Nov 30, 2016 17:42
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Radish posted:I'm already seeing him take credit for Ford not moving (when they said they weren't after he lied that they were) and Carrier not moving 1000 jobs before he's even sworn in. Trump will literally take credit for everything good that happens from now until 2020 and I really don't have a lot of faith in anyone calling him on any of it outside of news outlets no one cares about. The best way to fight that is do follow-ups. Get that same Carrier employee who praised Trump today when the whole plant is laid off a few months down the line after the CEO cashes in those tax breaks and he will be singing a different tune. Trump tends to have a short memory of people, if Alicia Machado is any evidence.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:43
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NewForumSoftware posted:did you watch a campaign ad during the last month of the election? Yep, I'm in Florida and I didn't see one economic ad in the last month or so of the campaign, just clips of Trump over and over again.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:43
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mcmagic posted:I don't think it would've mattered if she had run more issue based ads. She was too personally disliked. Ah so the campaign means nothing?
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Nov 30, 2016 17:43
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mcmagic posted:What if he tells them they that he delivered on twitter and since facts have no meaning it doesn't matter if he did or not? Good news everyone! This is exactly what is happening and we're not even in the first hundred days.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:43
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mcmagic posted:There are about 35 "if/but/for's." So throw your hands up and blame it on racism? I don't know why people just don't want to accept she was a bad candidate that ran a bad campaign. Sure, there are plenty of ifs/buts/whatevers but I don't know why we have to insist almost losing to Donald Trump, much less actually losing, isn't a reflection on her performance.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:43
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Enkmar posted:Ah so the campaign means nothing? I think it means alot less than most people think it does. I don't really buy the idea that if she had spent more time in WI she would've won it considering she was in PA most of the campaign and still lost there too. NewForumSoftware posted:So throw your hands up and blame it on racism? I don't know why people just don't want to accept she was a bad candidate that ran a bad campaign. Sure, there are plenty of ifs/buts/whatevers but I don't know why we have to insist almost losing to Donald Trump, much less actually losing, isn't a reflection on her performance. Racism is one of those ifs/buts. As was her bad campaign.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:47
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Phone posted:On the first point, are you seriously thinking that "racial, religious, and sexual minorities need to take a knee" is an acceptable response? I don't care if the DNC is brought to you by Beats By Dre or that Arianna Grande wants to let you know that voting for Democrats is not only cool, but neato, too. no i dont think its an acceptable response, but its what i hear every time i see some overheated geek screeching about how identity politics lost the election. because "celebrity endorsements" is not an identity. if civil rights and vigorous protection of minority groups are not the problem, then what the gently caress is? and dont give me this reheated "people wanted change!!" take because yeah i get it. its been jackhammered into the ground by every halfwit with column inches to their name. based on your definition, "identity politics" is in fact just another meaningless term for people to bitch mightily about.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:47
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mcmagic posted:Racism is one of those ifs/buts. As was her bad campaign. It'd be nice if any of these ifs/buts could be discussed without having to constantly reargue the existence/nonexistance of all the others. Michelle Obama had a good spotify ad about what Clinton wanted to do economically. Shoulda given it more air time. Trump news was viral, it was a waste of time telling us what we already knew.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:48
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paranoid randroid posted:no i dont think its an acceptable response, but its what i hear every time i see some overheated geek screeching about how identity politics lost the election. because "celebrity endorsements" is not an identity. if civil rights and vigorous protection of minority groups are not the problem, then what the gently caress is? and dont give me this reheated "people wanted change!!" take because yeah i get it. its been jackhammered into the ground by every halfwit with column inches to their name. alright calm down there amigo the reason people complain about identity politics is HRC expected to win this election by coasting on them and then lost the problem is the Democrats keep running pro-wall street candidates but if you haven't been able to figure out that yet I don't know how much hope is left
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Nov 30, 2016 17:49
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i aint your amigo, buster
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Nov 30, 2016 17:49
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What do people think about Wilbur Ross as Commerce Secretary. That's kind of loving scary.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:55
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So I guess Nancy Pelosi gets to be House leader for life no matter what the results of elections are.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:55
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mcmagic posted:So I guess Nancy Pelosi gets to be House leader for life no matter what the results of elections are.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:58
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FlamingLiberal posted:She at least tries unlike Schumer who is ready to roll over and take a 'Grand Bargain' up the rear end on day one She has zero power unlike Schumer so her only job description is "Win More Elections" and she's doing a terrible job of that.
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Nov 30, 2016 17:59
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heres my take - moving forward requires intersectionality more than anything. if there is going to be a successful economic left in this country, it will have to look more like NC's Moral Movement than the Jacobin.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:00
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Phone posted:On the first point, are you seriously thinking that "racial, religious, and sexual minorities need to take a knee" is an acceptable response? I don't care if the DNC is brought to you by Beats By Dre or that Arianna Grande wants to let you know that voting for Democrats is not only cool, but neato, too. To be fair, not being a racist fascist should count for something.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:02
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paranoid randroid posted:heres my take - moving forward requires intersectionality more than anything. if there is going to be a successful economic left in this country, it will have to look more like NC's Moral Movement than the Jacobin. Maybe someone like Bernie Sanders?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:02
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NewForumSoftware posted:Maybe someone like Bernie Sanders? Yeah maybe. Work harder on his primary next time.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:03
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NewForumSoftware posted:Maybe someone like Bernie Sanders?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:04
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Phone posted:You asked what identity politics should be abandoned. What were you expecting? I don't think you understand what identity politics means. Hey everyone, reply to this post with your definition of identity politics. I'll start: policy and rhetoric regarding race, gender, religion, and immigration status among others. Your turn!
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Nov 30, 2016 18:04
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FactsAreUseless posted:I think we should actually have someone who can win an election against Hillary Clinton. Being able to win a primary against Hillary Clinton is probably the most meaningless metric of general election success or any kind of success in Democratic politics.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:05
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NewForumSoftware posted:Maybe someone like Bernie Sanders? lets start with William Barber and work our way outwards from there. mcmagic posted:Being able to win a primary against Hillary Clinton is probably the most meaningless metric of general election success or any kind of success in Democratic politics. yeah the question of whether or not you can convince a majority of your own party to choose you as the nominee over Clinton is just a formality, really
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Nov 30, 2016 18:06
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Nevvy Z posted:Work harder on his primary next time. Hmm something tells me HRC 2.0 isn't going to fare well against anyone with Bernie's sort of resume in the next Democratic primary. But I mean, it's possible that a sizable portion of liberals across the country make the wrong choice again and hand the election to a reality tv star, there is a precedent. FactsAreUseless posted:I think we should actually have someone who can win an election against Hillary Clinton. So Donald Trump?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:05
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