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Obama's gradual incrementalism and naive "let's all get along, folks" doomed the Democratic party. The Dems had their boots on the neck of the Republican party and they let them off the drat hook. It'll take another 10 or 15 years, but the next generation of historians are going to shred whatever is left of his legacy after Trump gets through with it.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:07
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slightlyslow fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:07
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FactsAreUseless posted:Fair point. I was just very frustrated that this happened. There were also a bunch of prisoners cleared for release, but who could not be released because no one would take them. Obama did a series of deals with countries to get them to accept small numbers of detainees.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:07
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Dead Reckoning posted:There were also a bunch of prisoners cleared for release, but who could not be released because no one would take them. Obama did a series of deals with countries to get them to accept small numbers of detainees. So you sign a decree saying you're going to pardon them on the last day of your Presidency regardless and it's up to the GOP to come up with a solution that works for Obama. But god forbid he actually negotiate from a point of strength.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:08
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Angry_Ed posted:No instead they just wanted someone who was a reality show TV celebrity who had benefitted greatly from the Establishment and yet somehow is not it just because he never held office. And also occupy any and all positions about any and all topics. But you know, JOBS EMAILS BENGHAZI MUSLIMS MEXICANS WALLS. Trump won because he actually spent like 2% of his incoherent ranting saying "i know you're hurting and I'm going to make those fuckers who stole your future pay". People were so desperate for that message that they ignored all of the heinous poo poo about him. Like the bar is so low here it's insane. You're whining about party purity and going into hysterics when the only thing people are suggesting is "maybe actually give a poo poo about your constituents and empathize with their struggles"
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Nov 30, 2016 21:09
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Angry_Ed posted:
No, I'm talking more as to why people didn't vote in general. I hate Trump and I've voted straight ticket D in every election I have been able to because my right to exist is up in every election. At the same time I know the Dems just give LGBT rights lip service, but that's better than nothing. For your average person though that sword of Damocles is not there and the Dems need to stand for bloody something.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:09
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Dr. Killjoy posted:Well I for one am confident that now that the Republicans are at a majority and they no longer have to worry about Obama getting credit for successful legislation we'll finally see some good policy in regards to veterans and ahahahahah just kidding they'll still be PTSD riddled derelicts begging for change under bridges for years to come. Also can't wait for them to gut the VA for "underperforming". The Trump team is floating Palin to run the VA  NewForumSoftware posted:I have no doubt Wall Street can and will get to Donald Trump, why wouldn't he support them? He's a multi-millionaire. But he at least said he wasn't going to, which is more than you can say for Hillary. The GOP voters didn't want an establishment candidate and they didn't get one. The Democratic voters didn't want an establishment candidate and got HRC. Not hard to see why they had trouble in the general. In other words, it's the same as the jobs thing - people would rather vote for an obvious liar who tells them what they want to hear than an honest person who tells the hard truths. NewForumSoftware posted:You say that and yet Donald Trump won the GOP primary and general election. No, what gave him an edge among swing voters was that he was in the opposition, running against an incumbent who had failed for eight years to restore stable economic prosperity. It's the exact same problem McCain had - his party had held the presidency for two terms and made an absolute mess out of it, so people were deeply suspicious of any attempt to convince them that things would improve in the third term of a Republican White House. That gave Obama a huge credibility advantage, which he exploited quite well with a combination of blatant lies and vague sweeping claims that people could project their own desires onto - much as Trump did when faced with the same situation after eight years of a tumultuous Democratic administration. Saying that 2016 was a more anti-establishment year than 2011, when a national anti-establishment protest movement was literally matching in the streets all over the country, or 2008, when the establishment was thought to have literally destroyed the entire global economy and an anti-establishment candidate won by ten million votes, is just plain stupid.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:09
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NewForumSoftware posted:There were plenty of Democrats hoodwinked into voting for Obama because of "Change", why can't the GOP just be stupid instead of evil? Yeah I remember when Obama said he was going to close all the borders and deport all Muslims. It's almost like being a person that votes for Trump in spite of him being a woefully inexperienced ill-tempered shitlord that pals around with fascists just because you think he'll give you your manufacturing job that left 30 years ago isn't actually excusable just because you live in a fantasy world. Business Gorillas posted:Trump won because he actually spent like 2% of his incoherent ranting saying "i know you're hurting and I'm going to make those fuckers who stole your future pay". People were so desperate for that message that they ignored all of the heinous poo poo about him. I literally do not loving care. I am one of the people who had their "future stolen from me" by the misfortune of finishing college in the middle of the financial crisis and I still didn't believe a loving word that Donald Trump said because he's Donald Trump. Empathy is great, but I'm not going to feed people's delusions. The lesson I took from Obama is "you can't lie about Change, you have to actually do it." Turns out that lesson was a loving lie because people just voted for Trump off of the same bullshit only couched in more racism. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:09
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Business Gorillas posted:Trump won because he actually spent like 2% of his incoherent ranting saying "i know you're hurting and I'm going to make those fuckers who stole your future pay". People were so desperate for that message that they ignored all of the heinous poo poo about him. You'll notice that these people never talk about actually solving problems, they only talk about winning elections.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:10
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Business Gorillas posted:Trump won because he actually spent like 2% of his incoherent ranting saying "i know you're hurting and I'm going to make those fuckers who stole your future pay". People were so desperate for that message that they ignored all of the heinous poo poo about him. It's actually way closer to like 80% if you actually have listened to an entire rally. It's just that the media soundbites and echochamber really distill that down and replay the bad stuff over and over again. Which ironically enough emboldens his supporters.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:11
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comingafteryouall posted:You'll notice that these people never talk about actually solving problems, they only talk about winning elections. What's frustrating is apparently they aren't even good at that it turns out without a charismatic centerpiece like Obama. The fact that Hillary won the popular vote makes it even more embarrassing since it's clear the country as a whole didn't want Trump but her campaign failed at winning the game. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:12
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Main Paineframe posted:Saying that 2016 was a more anti-establishment year than 2011, when a national anti-establishment protest movement was literally matching in the streets all over the country, or 2008, when the establishment was thought to have literally destroyed the entire global economy and an anti-establishment candidate won by ten million votes, is just plain stupid. How many times did Britain vote to leave the EU in 2011? You're just clueless if you don't think globalization is receiving a worldwide backlash right now from pretty much every developed nation, on both the left and the right. I mean holy poo poo, Donald Trump is president and you think irrelevant protest movements spearheaded by leftist activists are relevant? also again, Obama was not an anti-establishment candidate, he just said he was. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:12
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XyrlocShammypants posted:Sander's message didn't resonate that much with non-millennial whites in the rust belt. His support base also became this fart-smelling group of insiders that turns off less physically active political people who always make it to the polls. Now where your evidence beyond the fact you're a third way Hillbot?
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Nov 30, 2016 21:15
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Main Paineframe posted:The Trump team is floating Palin to run the VA The only reason this year is heralded as an "anti-establishment" year is because the barbarians have already battered down the gates, and no one was watching. The Radical Center has fallen. Elites didn't see it coming because Business As Usual was restored in their eyes. Now they're scrambling for answers and it is too late.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:16
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Just my personal opinion: the Obama regime should not have committed human rights abuses like indefinite detainment, drone striking weddings etc Here's another take: politicians have a moral obligation to the rural white poor regardless of if they are racist or have bad dental hygiene Calibanibal fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:17
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Angry_Ed posted:I literally do not loving care. I am one of the people who had their "future stolen from me" by the misfortune of finishing college in the middle of the financial crisis and I still didn't believe a loving word that Donald Trump said because he's Donald Trump. Empathy is great, but I'm not going to feed people's delusions. The lesson I took from Obama is "you can't lie about Change, you have to actually do it." Turns out that lesson was a loving lie because people just voted for Trump off of the same bullshit only couched in more racism. The lesson wasn't a lie, the choices were the chaos option and literally "I'm more of the same". People either chose chaos or some (read: half the goddamn country) sat at home.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:17
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KaptainKrunk posted:The only reason this year is heralded as an "anti-establishment" year is because the barbarians have already battered down the gates, and no one was watching. The Radical Center has fallen. Elites didn't see it coming because Business As Usual was restored in their eyes. Now they're scrambling for answers and it is too late. The sentiments from OWS didn't just disappear and have not had an outlet. As evidenced by Bernie Sanders being able to legitimately challenge Clinton. And Donald Trump beating Clinton.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:20
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Calibanibal posted:Here's another take: politicians have a moral obligation to the rural white poor regardless of if they are racist or have bad dental hygiene You're right, they do, but shockingly whenever they try to help them out they go "no, because gently caress you for helping people who aren't white as well", and somehow nobody here has a solution for that other than "just tell lies it'll be awesome and totally not bite you in the rear end later" while also being annoyed with a candidate for telling lies and being "inauthentic" EDIT: To be clear, I also am not happy with the fact that Democrats severly underestimated "It's the Economy, stupid", this election. comingafteryouall posted:The sentiments from OWS didn't just disappear and have not had an outlet. Yeah, Donald "Small Loan of a Million Dollars" Trump, hero of the 99% Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:21
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kenner116 posted:Trump's entire campaign was identity politics. Non college educated white people were his focus, and they are are a bigger population than African Americans and Hispanics and LGBT combined. No it wasn't, the part you paid attention to was, but a lot more people ignored his identity politics in favor of his economic plan. It's probably why there were a ton of people voting for him despite recognizing his views on minorities were down right awful Hanni688 posted:Careful with taking this too far, though. Trump ran on plenty of identity politics issues himself, and it would be foolish to assume that every voter is persuadable by economic arguments alone. I'm not saying that Clinton lost because ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST!!!1, and I do believe that a coherent and forceful economic message would have won the election, but it's a very blinkered way of looking at the world to assume that Democrats have the monopoly on identity politics.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:21
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comingafteryouall posted:The sentiments from OWS didn't just disappear and have not had an outlet. Of course it didn't actually disappear; the establishment/elite/the media just thought it did.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:23
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My Linux Rig posted:Right, I'm not saying he ran a campaign on economic policy alone, but the Democrats definitely should be shifting focus to telling people how they can help them out financially since that seems to be the thing most Americans are focused on right now I agree, but the problem is whoever runs against the Democrat can just lie and make poo poo up to counter an actual economic policy and they'll win because facts don't matter.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:24
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KaptainKrunk posted:Of course it didn't actually disappear; the establishment/elite/the media just thought it did. Unfortunately they've lost control of the narrative and the people who have "control" of it now are new even more gigantic global corporations like Facebook and Google who seem to have an ideological interest in putting as little bounds on the discourse as possible and allowing "algorithms" to determine what is important and not. Unfortunately these algorithms are designed by people and just magnify the biases of the few in control in the interest of "free speech". Compromise is not a legitimately political strategy in a world where everyone self-radicalizes in their own "free speech" media bubble. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:25
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KaptainKrunk posted:Of course it didn't actually disappear; the establishment/elite/the media just thought it did. Pretty much. The media was pretty big on the message of "they are petulant children that don't know what they want" and when the visible movement died due to a combination of internal infighting along with local governments screwing with them Serious People determined that all was right and the storm was over. No one is going to argue that Trump is going to do poo poo for anyone but Hillary's "America is already great!" did not help her at all and was totally up the rear end of the establishment not understanding the country or its people at all.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:26
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Angry_Ed posted:Yeah, Donald "Small Loan of a Million Dollars" Trump, hero of the 99% You're overlooking Trump being able to say "hey, I don't have to fundraise for SuperPACS and I've bought politicians myself. The system is broken and I will fix it." He was anti-establishment in his own way. Couple that with his focus on jobs and people were able to forgive him for being rich. Sure, he probably won't do anything to fix the system now but the messaging was there. Look at his first 100 day plan.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:27
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Angry_Ed posted:I agree, but the problem is whoever runs against the Democrat can just lie and make poo poo up to counter an actual economic policy and they'll win because facts don't matter. They'll win if the Dems policy seems like a sudden adaptation and the dem doesn't actually campaign on said policy but just "The GOP are horrible."
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Nov 30, 2016 21:27
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Angry_Ed posted:You're right, they do, but shockingly whenever they try to help them out they go "no, because gently caress you for helping people who aren't white as well", and somehow nobody here has a solution for that other than "just tell lies it'll be awesome and totally not bite you in the rear end later" while also being annoyed with a candidate for telling lies and being "inauthentic" I mean i just gave you a solution and you literally told me "I don't loving care" so maybe you're not really looking for an answer
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Nov 30, 2016 21:27
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Business Gorillas posted:The lesson wasn't a lie, the choices were the chaos option and literally "I'm more of the same". People either chose chaos or some (read: half the goddamn country) sat at home. Trump lost the popular vote. The failure isn't nationwide, but the structure of the system means Democrats need to pay more attention to the few voters who hold more power. The Democrats failed at that, but there is broad support for the coalition.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:29
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comingafteryouall posted:You're overlooking Trump being able to say "hey, I don't have to fundraise for SuperPACS and I've bought politicians myself. The system is broken and I will fix it." "Politicians are corrupt and in the pocket of big business!" *votes for the guy who literally boasted about bribing politicians to make lawsuits where he hosed over the little guy go away* I'm not overlooking it at all, because again, he is exactly what the American Public kept complaining about. Big Business, Big Money, corruption. Who cares that he's not "beholden" to corporate interests, he is a corporate interest! Business Gorillas posted:I mean i just gave you a solution and you literally told me "I don't loving care" so maybe you're not really looking for an answer Business Gorillas posted:"maybe actually give a poo poo about your constituents and empathize with their struggles" As I just said, show me how that actually works and doesn't result in a bunch of angry white people rejecting the help because it's going to help black people as well. Even more impressive, show me how to do it without telling one group one thing and another group something else. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:30
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EDIT: double post
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Nov 30, 2016 21:31
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Trabisnikof posted:The Democrats failed at that, but there is broad support for the coalition. What coalition? Hillary is gone, who's the leader of that coalition? Seems to have fallen apart pretty much immediately upon losing the election. The GOP has already gone through this, or at least started to. Are you ready for a progressive "tea party"? Angry_Ed posted:As I just said, show me how that actually works and doesn't result in a bunch of angry white people rejecting the help because it's going to help black people as well. Angry white people who refuse to help black people is a miniscule portion of the electorate and had nothing to do with why Hillary lost but feel free to keep parroting the latest hysteric's take on things.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:30
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Angry_Ed posted:"Politicians are corrupt and in the pocket of big business!" *votes for the guy who literally boasted about bribing politicians to make lawsuits where he hosed over the little guy go away* But he said he would was not and hadn't been making 100 k a pop speeches at G & S.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:31
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Crowsbeak posted:They'll win if the Dems policy seems like a sudden adaptation and the dem doesn't actually campaign on said policy but just "The GOP are horrible." The problem is that the Dems look towards actual solutions to the problems, and the actual solutions are boring and don't make good soundbites like the made up ones do.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:32
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Trabisnikof posted:Trump lost the popular vote. The failure isn't nationwide, but the structure of the system means Democrats need to pay more attention to the few voters who hold more power. The Democrats failed at that, but there is broad support for the coalition. What if actually giving the rust belt a future is not only a politically savvy move but also the right thing to do?
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Nov 30, 2016 21:33
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Angry_Ed posted:Who cares that he's not "beholden" to corporate interests, he is a corporate interest! Those are actually different things and for example, if Bill Gates decided to run for President as a democrat I'd have much easier of a time trying to justify my vote for him as opposed to Hillary Clinton. I know people hate to admit Trump said some ok things but his whole "I use an accountant and avoid taxes like the rest of rich america" was refreshingly honest. Being open about the corporate interest and saying you're going to change them gets you a long way (even if you have no plans to) Khisanth Magus posted:The problem is that the Dems look towards actual solutions to the problems, and the actual solutions are boring and don't make good soundbites like the made up ones do. The problem is "actual solutions" always translate into leniency when it comes to dealing with corporate america
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Nov 30, 2016 21:33
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NewForumSoftware posted:How many times did Britain vote to leave the EU in 2011? Eh? Brexit isn't anti-establishment, nor is it anti-globalization or anti-free trade. Trump isn't an anti-establishment candidate either, he just said he was. comingafteryouall posted:The sentiments from OWS didn't just disappear and have not had an outlet. And as evidenced by Barack Obama beating both Clinton and Bush handily by much larger margins than anything that happened in 2016, with historic levels of turnout. The sentiments from OWS were around long before OWS, which was just an outlet for people's frustrations after years of fruitless efforts culminated in the disappointment of 2010. Business Gorillas posted:What if actually giving the rust belt a future is not only a politically savvy move but also the right thing to do? Oh, I agree. Too bad it's literally impossible.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:35
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Business Gorillas posted:What if actually giving the rust belt a future is not only a politically savvy move but also the right thing to do? I'm curious what you plan on doing for giving them a future? This is something that always comes up. People come in saying that the Democrats can't just ignore the rural poor in the rust belt, but never say what they should do. Those people have for decades and will continue to resist any and all government assistance such as infrastructure investment, which would provide a ton of jobs. They elect local representatives who campaign specifically on opposing such help. So how are you going to magically get them to vote for you, because the GOP uses complete BS lies about bringing back the factories to do it.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:36
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FactsAreUseless posted:This is all disregarding the fact that so many voters weren't making an informed decision, that there was a massive amount of both media manipulation and straight-up media failure, etc. That's all harder to predict. And the media doing it's job would have probably caused enough people to come out and vote for Clinton instead of staying home. Radish posted:I bet a lot of Americans also don't really like Trump that much and voted either against Hillary, because he was the R candidate, or because BABIES BEING MURDERED BY DEMOCRATS. Like frankly he should be an easy win in 2020 if his term takes the trajectory it's already taking but I have no faith in anyone actually standing up to him in a effective way. A whole bunch of Americans didn't vote.. override367 posted:but politically disengaged Democrats demonstrated that they absolutely would stay home rather than vote for Benghazi-Email-Foundation-Gate Clinton Exactly. People keep ignoring this aspect.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:36
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NewForumSoftware posted:Those are actually different things and for example, if Bill Gates decided to run for President as a democrat I'd have much easier of a time trying to justify my vote for him as opposed to Hillary Clinton. Result is the same, especially since he's not going to to the "blind trust" and has his campaign cronies telling us how "the President can't possibly have a conflict of interest" yet is already using his newfound political capital to get business deals rammed through. NewForumSoftware posted:I know people hate to admit Trump said some ok things but his whole "I use an accountant and avoid taxes like the rest of rich america" was refreshingly honest. Being open about the corporate interest and saying you're going to change them gets you a long way. Except he's not going to change them and you know that, so no, it's not honest at all. Much like how he wouldn't show his tax returns because he was "under audit" despite that not being a restriction. NewForumSoftware posted:Angry white people who refuse to help black people is a miniscule portion of the electorate and had nothing to do with why Hillary lost but feel free to keep parroting the latest hysteric's take on things. Feel free to keep not offering any real solution or evidence to keep me from "parroting" "hysterics" because you're not interested in actually solving the problem. EDIT: Khisanth Magus posted:I'm curious what you plan on doing for giving them a future? This is something that always comes up. People come in saying that the Democrats can't just ignore the rural poor in the rust belt, but never say what they should do. Those people have for decades and will continue to resist any and all government assistance such as infrastructure investment, which would provide a ton of jobs. They elect local representatives who campaign specifically on opposing such help. So how are you going to magically get them to vote for you, because the GOP uses complete BS lies about bringing back the factories to do it. Exactly this. I may have overstepped it by couching the resistance to improvements as being racist in nature, but this is the problem. The rural poor continuously does not want the help that Democrats try to give. And then a Republican goes "jobs!" and the rust belt votes for them and the jobs don't come back and they never figure it out. And the people in this thread constantly going "you shouldn't have ignored the Rust Belt" don't actually say what to do to fix that. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 21:37
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Khisanth Magus posted:The problem is that the Dems look towards actual solutions to the problems, and the actual solutions are boring and don't make good soundbites like the made up ones do. Hmmm. Free college. Medicare for all. Glass stegall 2 punish the financial elite. No more wars in the Middle East. Make VA work for our veterans.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:38
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MariusLecter posted:He will want to take the $1? Or will he go for a Million Dollar bill? Maybe THIS is how we get the trillion dollar coin. 
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Nov 30, 2016 21:40
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