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Spermy Smurf posted:Skip Night of Knives. Its terrible, adds nothing to the story, and is just so so so so bad.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:09
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I somehow didn't pick up on this - where does it say that about Ms. Raraku? I can't give you a page number, I listen to the series as audiobooks, but it's in House of Chains just before the last crazy night in the oasis camp. There's a brief section more or less from the Whirlwind Goddess's perspective when she's congratulating herself for the mastery she's gained over Felisin, whom she thinks of as Kilava and Onrack's descendant along with the rest of the human species. Mrs. the Broken crows to herself about claiming one of their children for her own.
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Nov 27, 2016 17:40
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anilEhilated posted:Seriously. The recommended reading order is to skip that - it has no relevance to anything and you already know the story anyway; all it does is introduce a couple ICE characters and in case of some coughkiskacough it is perfectly fine to postpone that introduction as far as possible. Aight I had heard some of ICE's novels are hit or miss I guess Knives is a miss.
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Nov 27, 2016 21:40
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The next one of ICE's (Stonewielder?) has 'someone totally mysterious' hanging out with Kiska if I remember right... the entire Kiska subplot can be skipped. Its about 1/4 of the book and just skipping it is completely ok since it doesnt add any value. I skip it every reread.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:07
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Ulio posted:Aight I had heard some of ICE's novels are hit or miss I guess Knives is a miss. You can get through it in a few hours as it's relatively short, but yeah it has almost no new information in it and mostly serves as a dramatization of events you learned about very early in the series. It's also not the greatest-written book, understandable as it's ICE's first writing attempt. As far as I can remember here's what you would be missing if you skipped NoK: Kiska is a young thief who aspires to join the Claw. Temper was one of Dassem Ultor's bodyguards and has an account of the day Dassem died. By the end of the book he has become the guardian of the Deadhouse on Malaz Isle. Temper has a small role in The Bonehunters. And that's about it really.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:12
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Oh thanks for the summary. Are all ICE books so trivial and fillerish?
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Nov 28, 2016 00:17
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Ulio posted:Are all ICE books so trivial and fillerish? There are a lot of major events in Return of the Crimson Guard that have wide-reaching implications for Malazan books 7-10. It's a poorly written book in many regards, but still worth reading.
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Nov 28, 2016 03:33
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Regarding ICE books I was surprised after finishing the Malazan series that Leoman becomes an ICE character after Bonehunters. I was always waiting for that shoe to drop. Regarding Forge of Darkness, the actual Tiste era is much more intriguing than the reminiscences of the era in the Malazan series, which are saturated in too much pathos and vagueness. The tone is very different from Malazan generally. It's like War and Peace with a bit of sorcery so far.
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Nov 28, 2016 04:36
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Some thoughts now that I've had time to digest the Malazan series: Favourite books: I'm torn between Deadhouse Gates, Midnight Tides and Bonehunters. Erikson can wax on about stuff to the point where my eyes glaze over, including in DG, but its ending perfectly captured the essence of the themes he'd been exploring, and for me it was the most tragic. Coltaine's line to Duiker about recording the story of the Chain of Dogs, his death, and the events following at Aren are my favourite thing in the series. I wasn't just stunned by how beautiful it is, but by how it illustrated in retrospect how deftly plotted the CoD narrative is. Erikson uses the same set-up with Tavore (like Coltaine, she's a mysterious commander followed by people who don't know what she's truly like and can't read her motives) to less effect. Midnight Tides was the most enjoyable. It's a solid all-rounder: it even compensates for the lack of Malazan soldiers with the Letheras comedy, which was pretty unique, like a semi-contained farce juxtaposed against the dramatic Edur chapters. If you go back it's funny seeing how much more absurd Shurq Elalle is than she is later. That level of absurdity wouldn't have worked outside of Tehol and Bugg's sphere of influence. That's not to rag on the Edur stuff. To turn Rhulad from naive youth into despicable monster into sympathetic victim in the space of one book is a hell of a feat. In every other book I can think of a few blemishes or stretches of poop. MT is the party book. Bonehunters is the best Malazan soldier book. Just the perfect combo of their best traits. I forget the character, but I loved when someone said the soldiers by all appearances are insane if you're looking from the outside and don't understand their brand of comradeship. I guess Ben & Kalam and Gesler & Stormy best represent what I mean, or any soldier who fantasizes about killing another soldier. Least favourites: Reaper's Gale and Dust of Dreams. DoD might be the outright worst though it's at a disadvantage being Part 1 of a split novel. I think it's great that I can see RG as one of the worst and it still has Letheras comedy, Malazan soldier hijinx, Beak!!, the creepy investigators, capitalism discussion, Karsa being a dick because he's bored, and the ugliness of Rhulad's court. You know what's actually the worst stuff in the series? Whatever was torturing Heboric's mind. I didn't understand it at all. I also hated when old-times characters reminisced vaguely and at length about ancient events. If I could only re-read one book I'd re-read Memories of Ice: I'm so conflicted about it, putting aside the visceral thrill-ride of the Capustan invasion and other cool poo poo like K'Chain Che'malles showing up. I wonder if I missed something. All the emotional stuff failed to land. A lot of people are moved by Itkovian's sacrifice and I think it's so cheesy. The friendship between Anomander and Whiskeyjack didn't jive with me, or the love between Whiskeyjack and Korlat, or Whiskeyjack's death, and I say all this being a fan of Whiskeyjack. I was so bored with the stack of emotions at the end of this book that the opening to House of Chains couldn't have come at a better time. Sinn's kinda underdeveloped: There's that scene in TCG that explains how her past has filled her with rage, but her part in the final battle felt very tacked on and whatever the opposite of poignant is. Jaghut: In the last couple of books they remind me of the South Park episode where Token becomes a lion's apprentice. snoremac fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 12:40
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snoremac posted:Regarding Forge of Darkness, the actual Tiste era is much more intriguing than the reminiscences of the era in the Malazan series, which are saturated in too much pathos and vagueness. The tone is very different from Malazan generally. It's like War and Peace with a bit of sorcery so far.
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Nov 28, 2016 18:48
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snoremac posted:Regarding ICE books I was surprised after finishing the Malazan series that Leoman becomes an ICE character after Bonehunters. I was always waiting for that shoe to drop. Steven Erikson: War and Peace and Sorcery.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:51
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Ulio posted:Oh thanks for the summary. Are all ICE books so trivial and fillerish? Come to think of it there's like one thing I remember explained in a satisfactory way and it's pretty minor: why does such a chill god as Mael suffer a poo poo like Mallick Rel as his high priest. And that's like a paragraph's worth of exposition. denimgorilla posted:Steven Erikson: War and Peace and Sorcery. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 21:56
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Kharkanas trilogy: The Brothers Kharkamazov ICE: I read everything up until Assail. Some of them are okay. I guess. imagine dungeons fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 22:04
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denimgorilla posted:Kharkanas trilogy: The Brothers Kharkamazov Yeah basically this.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:29
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anilEhilated posted:Didn't he say he drew inspiration from Dickens for the Kharkanas books? A Tale Of Two Warrens? I remember hearing his influence was more Shakespeare.
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Nov 29, 2016 00:53
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anilEhilated posted:
Any chance you can spoil this? I've had that same question in my head.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:19
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denimgorilla posted:Kharkanas trilogy: The Brothers Kharkamazov Hahaha perfect
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Nov 29, 2016 03:10
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ICE is on par with generic fantasy writers. He's not great and he's not awful. If you're really itching for more Malazan, he's the only option after Erikson.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:20
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Amused by a throwaway line in Reaper's Gale about the fate of the K'Chain Che'Malle: "the death of so many of their own kind was but one more ordeal in a history of fraught, tragic ordeals since coming to this world." The first couple of times we encounter them in MoI they're formidible and relentless killing machines, but as the bigger picture is revealed turns out they actually spend most of their time getting slaughtered and running away. It's a trope he comes back to here and there (Tiste Liosan in HoC and various other demons, ascendants and gods). Powerful entities used to being top of the food chain, getting their rear end handed to them because they're underestimating just how powerful so many other entities are in this world. I enjoy it.
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Nov 29, 2016 15:53
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Snacks and Violence posted:Any chance you can spoil this? I've had that same question in my head.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:08
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also he had no other worshippers at that point so Mallick Rel was basically all he had going
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Nov 29, 2016 19:05
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At what point in history do the Tiste emerge? My understanding is that the order in which each race dominated is K'Chain > Forkrul > Jaghut > T'lan Imass > Humans, but I don't know at what point the Tiste get involved.
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Nov 30, 2016 12:39
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snoremac posted:At what point in history do the Tiste emerge? My understanding is that the order in which each race dominated is K'Chain > Forkrul > Jaghut > T'lan Imass > Humans, but I don't know at what point the Tiste get involved. All those big boy races were kicking around at the same time.
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Nov 30, 2016 13:02
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snoremac posted:At what point in history do the Tiste emerge? My understanding is that the order in which each race dominated is K'Chain > Forkrul > Jaghut > T'lan Imass > Humans, but I don't know at what point the Tiste get involved. I'm not sure the Forkrul ever dominated. They were at war with the K'Chain, which I think they kind of won and I think the Tiste emerged and got involved during the time those two were in conflict (as they fought the K'Chain before they were defeated). I'm not sure how much either the Tiste or Forkul contributed to their defeat. After the defeat of the K'Chain I think the Jaghut became the dominant species. That said, I think a big part of the books is that all of this was so long ago that you don't get a definitive answer to any of this stuff, only second hand histories and snippets of first hand accounts. Another recurring theme is that there is often more going on in other parts of the world at any given time that the information about any definitive event may not apply to what was happening on the next continent over etc. Disclaimer: This may all be wrong. Also, you've read books I haven't read yet so may have access to information that contradicts this! However, the Tiste definitely arrived before the K'Chain were "defeated". Gravy Jones fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Nov 30, 2016 |
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Nov 30, 2016 15:25
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Gravy Jones posted:I'm not sure the Forkrul ever dominated. They were at war with the K'Chain, which I think they kind of won and I think the Tiste emerged and got involved during the time those two were in conflict (as they fought the K'Chain before they were defeated). I'm not sure how much either the Tiste or Forkul contributed to their defeat. After the defeat of the K'Chain I think the Jaghut became the dominant species. I should've added that I'm asking this because Forge of Darkness makes this stuff less clear to me than it seemed, specifically because (minor history spoiler) the Jaghut are virtually defunct, but the T'lan Imass have literally not been mentioned 300 pages in.
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Nov 30, 2016 16:08
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Regarding the Imass, it's very much RAFO. There are definitely references to them in FoD, quite possibly in FoL as well.
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Nov 30, 2016 16:31
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snoremac posted:I should've added that I'm asking this because Forge of Darkness makes this stuff less clear to me than it seemed, specifically because (minor history spoiler) the Jaghut are virtually defunct, but the T'lan Imass have literally not been mentioned 300 pages in. Spoilers for the T'lan Imass from the Kharkanas trilogy: the Dog-Runners are the Imass. They haven't done the ritual yet, possibly because the Jaghut tyrants really haven't shown up yet either. anilEhilated posted:Regarding the Imass, it's very much RAFO. There are definitely references to them in FoD, quite possibly in FoL as well. Very much in FoL. Page 713 specifically lays things out: ‘To my mortal kin here, I will speak words of dread import. Ifayle, son of whomever, from this tribe or that, dweller of cave or forest or plain, the fate I described will never come to you. The Dog-Runners shall not vanish from the world. When the tyrants come among you, the Strangers in Hiding, look to the dreaming of the Sleeping Goddess. Within, a secret hides.’ When he paused, Ifayle tilted his head. ‘Ancient one?’ Korya crossed her arms. ‘He’s just making the most of the moment,’ she said. ‘After all, he’ll have scant few of these.’ Cadig Aval said, ‘Sadly, the truth of your words, Tiste maiden, is like a knife-thrust into my soul. Then again, I already weary of discourse, and long for the interminable silence of my unending solitude. Thus, the secret. Ifayle, at the core of a dream there is something that cannot be broken. Indeed, it is deathless. Reach into this core, Dog-Runner, to seek the makings of a ritual. Call as well upon Olar Ethil, seeking the spark of Telas – the Eternal Flame – to enliven what remains of you.’ This time, the ghost’s pause was much briefer. ‘But be warned. The deathless gift of the Sleeping Goddess’s dream will end your own dreams. The future loses all relevance and so is made powerless. In escaping death, you must all die, sustained by naught but the spark of Telas.’ Something trembled through Korya and she shivered. ‘Ifayle,’ she said in a low whisper, ‘none of that sounds good.’ ‘No,’ Cadig Aval said to her, ‘you are correct, Tiste. A terrible fate awaits Ifayle and his people.’
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Nov 30, 2016 19:22
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ulmont posted:Spoilers for the T'lan Imass from the Kharkanas trilogy: the Dog-Runners are the Imass. They haven't done the ritual yet, possibly because the Jaghut tyrants really haven't shown up yet either.
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Nov 30, 2016 23:13
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Infinite Karma posted:It would make sense that he's the one and only tyrant, knowing what we saw of Jaghut in the Kharkanas trilogy so far. It seems like the Ritual of Tellann and a holy war on the Jaghut would be massive overkill if there was only one tyrant.
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Nov 30, 2016 23:19
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ulmont posted:It seems like the Ritual of Tellann and a holy war on the Jaghut would be massive overkill if there was only one tyrant.
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Nov 30, 2016 23:42
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Infinite Karma posted:That's kind of the point, the Imass aren't the good guys. I understand that there are no good guys. However, in the main-line of the text, there are many references to multiple tyrants, even if not that many. "‘Apart from a handful of Tyrants, the Jaghut were pacifists. Their only crime was to exist—’" ‘There were never more than but a handful of Tyrants among the Jaghut, woman.’ "Since when were Jaghut interested only in destruction? Not even the Tyrants ruled with such cruelty as you have." Even the FOL quote I had up-thread refers to multiple tyrants.
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Nov 30, 2016 23:48
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ulmont posted:I understand that there are no good guys. quote:However, in the main-line of the text, there are many references to multiple tyrants, even if not that many.
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Dec 1, 2016 00:34
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It doesn't matter if there's one tyrant or, I dunno, four. The point is that there's a tiny minority of a few crazy dudes and it's not a racial trait and the Imass are genocidal lunatics
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Dec 1, 2016 01:09
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:It doesn't matter if there's one tyrant or, I dunno, four. The point is that there's a tiny minority of a few crazy dudes and it's not a racial trait and the Imass are genocidal lunatics Point of order, Imass are cool and chill dudes. T'lan Imass bad.
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Dec 1, 2016 02:28
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:also he had no other worshippers at that point so Mallick Rel was basically all he had going I wouldn't say that. What with Smiles's sister getting sacrificed to him to bring the fish back to their village, and the offerings to Mael in Malaz City mentioned in the Malaz segment of either Bonehunters or Deadhouse Gates, it'd seem he still has plenty of folk worship scattered around the world. I also seem to recall Withal's prayers being what summoned Mael to the Crippled God's island at the end of Midnight Tides, so Mael probably still has other worshipers among the Meckros cities. That slave trader who destroyed one of the Teblor tribes, whose hands and feet Karsa cuts off in House of Chains, he was a priest of Mael as well. And if there's two such priests known to be farting about, there's probably more. Mael's probably got the most human supporters of any elder god but T'riss or the Errant. 1994 Toyota Celica fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 05:25
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FoD: Well, that thing that I thought was a rape until I thought it was a magical abortion until it turned out it was a magical pregnancy test was quite strange.
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Dec 1, 2016 16:53
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zeal posted:I wouldn't say that. What with Smiles's sister getting sacrificed to him to bring the fish back to their village, and the offerings to Mael in Malaz City mentioned in the Malaz segment of either Bonehunters or Deadhouse Gates, it'd seem he still has plenty of folk worship scattered around the world. I also seem to recall Withal's prayers being what summoned Mael to the Crippled God's island at the end of Midnight Tides, so Mael probably still has other worshipers among the Meckros cities. That slave trader who destroyed one of the Teblor tribes, whose hands and feet Karsa cuts off in House of Chains, he was a priest of Mael as well. And if there's two such priests known to be farting about, there's probably more. Mael's probably got the most human supporters of any elder god but T'riss or the Errant. I think it's Midnight Tides that talks about how sailors (and presumably Meckros) don't really worship Mael. Sure, they make propitiations and have all their superstitions and what-not, but it's not to invoke his favour, it's to try and divert his attention so they can stay under his radar and avoid getting hit with storms or tidal waves or however he decides to show his blessings.
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Dec 1, 2016 17:53
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ulmont posted:Spoilers for the T'lan Imass from the Kharkanas trilogy: Still one of the worst passages I've ever read, simply because it was fan pandering crap that had zero relevance to the plot and had no business being there. Though thinking about it, nothing in that book had any real relevance to a plot so perhaps it was in the right place.
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Dec 2, 2016 22:06
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bucketybuck posted:Still one of the worst passages I've ever read, simply because it was fan pandering crap that had zero relevance to the plot and had no business being there Before it, Ifayle bowed. ‘Ancient one, I am Ifayle, of the—’ The voice that cut him off was dry and weary. ‘Some tribe, yes, from some plain, or forest, or crag, or perhaps a shoreline, a cave set high above the crashing waves. Where one year blends seamlessly into the next, the sun rising each morning like a new breath, settling each night like a hint of death.’ The ghost of Cadig Aval waved an ethereal hand. ‘From this, to that. Will it ever end? The food is plentiful, the hunt dangerous but fruitful and, of course, exciting. Strangers pass in the distance, revealing new ways of living, but what matter any of that? Still, the winters grow colder, the winds from the north harsher. There are times of hunger, when the animals do not come, or the sea retreats and the bounteous tidal pools disappear. And those strangers, well, more and more of them appear. It seems they breed like maggots. In the meantime, distant kin fall silent, and you sense their absence. Many have left the mortal earth, never to return. A few others now walk among the strangers, who shock the world with mercy. Blood thins. They lose the ways of the earth and the threads of the Sleeping Goddess. They lose the power to see the magic in the hearth-fires. Everything dwindles. You rise one morning and look at your cave, your precious home, and see only its poverty, its exhaustion, and the pale, dirty faces of the few children left to you shatter your heart, because the end is nigh. And then—’
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Dec 2, 2016 22:25
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Is Fall of Light worth it despite all that? I have a decent tolerance for monologuing, but that looks like it could get exhausting. Talking of exhausting: I've just finished Bonehunters, which is maybe the most draining of all the books so far. And I mean that in a good way. It's one long trudge from one disaster to the next, and it's relentless in its tragedy. I've criticised the close-up nature of Erikson's battles before, but the Pyroclasm at Y'Ghatan absolutely blew me away (as well as blowing away Crump and Truth). It also gave us a rare glimpse at the academic culture of the Malazan world - it's controversial whether or not Fire Elementals actually exist, or if they're just really big fires. Compounding the tragedy is just how betrayed and disgusted I feel with Leoman. What an absolute coward. Worse than Korbolo Dom, worse than loving Mallick Rel. And half a chapter earlier he was the most sensible and rational character in the books! I'm almost shock at how viscerally I hate him now. drat good writing. There's a nice symmetry between Leoman and Lasseen - one betrays in defeat, the other betrays in victory. I'm somewhat less enamoured with the Empress than Mr Of The Flails, but it's rare that a book can introduce a twist of that scale and make me rage at the unfair cruelty of the world, rather than the unfair cruelty of the author. I feel it should carry a Titus Andronicus-esque warning on the cover "One atrocity every 2.8 chapters". And the final near atrocity - the rain of jade statues. I feel a bit like Erikson is playing games with the reader now. The scattered remarks about the changing face of the moon are quite clearly sequel hooks, hints at all the weird machinations going on behind SURPRISE! WE'RE DOING IT NOW! and then Heboric, despite more than his hands being ghosts, finally gets some resolution and emotional closure after a lifetime of doubt and suffering. For all his verbosity, Erikson manages to pull off some incredibly powerful sucker punches when he decides to be succinct ("Not Destriant. Shield Anvil"  "The Year of Ten Thousand Lies") I'm less enthusiastic about the books handling of its Ascendants.. T'Amber is Eres'al for no readily apparent reason, the Soldier of Death is blundering about looking for a wife for Hood, and Mammot and Baruk are centuries old - something that is somehow never mentioned or hinted at all. In fact, the only foreshadowing I can recall on this is a remark in MoI that the Seguleh second is "missing". Which implies a recent occurrence, not "has been missing since beyond living memory, and before our country existed in it's present state". The whole thing feels like a needless layering of plots. The worst of these is the revelation that Hood was responsible for Whiskeyjack's death - it's not clear what his precise involvement is, putting off the healing maybe, distracting WJ from healing it, maybe even nudging the falling pillar onto it - but it completely ruins WJ's story arc. Not that it was much of an arc to begin with. In GotM WJ is an outcast, betrayed again and again, reeling from tragedy, trying to make a final home for his people after Just One Last Mission. Then in MoI all our assumptions are shattered, and he becomes a double-triple-agent, reeling from the fallout of somebody else's gigantic cock-up, who is driven by the mistrust of his allies into a reckless assault that gets his entire army killed, before the very obvious badguy, who has spent the entire book shouting about his desire to betray and attack him, betrays and attacks him. And because Whisky had decided that walking halfway across the continent on a broken leg was a good idea, he dies. And now we find out that he only died because the literal God of Death was harbouring a grudge. Complex, yes. Deep? No. Minor Thoughts: We'll be seeing Scillara's child again - especially as there's a good chance she's a Child of the Dead Seed, and not actually Dom's. Outrider Hurlochel continues to be fantastic. I want a spin-off book of him, Keneb and Blistig just being quietly competent while the world falls apart around them. Give them Corabb too. Hurlochel is conveniently absent minded after discovering the truth about Fellisen. I get the feeling that the Lady's Push had something to do with that - Oponn does something similar on Letheras (Beddict forgetting to tell the Ceda about Kettle being dead, and one or two others that I can't remember) so it's nice to see a small moment of genuine benevolence from an ascendent once in a while. Hedge has become the God of Sappers. Brilliant. Pearl continues to be the worst assassin ever - although his betrayal stung just as much as Leoman's. I'm disappointed, rather than angry. Dude could have made so much more of himself than he did. We finally have a confirmed identity for Keeper - Urko Crust, and Cartheron also pops up again. I kind of wish Erikson had shown some restraint here and left it as hints. From his appearance in HoC it's clear that he's one of the Crusts, but it's perfectly ambiguous about which one he is, which I thought was a nice little mystery. As is, we now know the identity of nearly all the original crew - the only vagueness left are the identity of the Claw, Hawl, and the mysterious (ghost?) captain that saved Kalam, who I was sure was Crust until now.
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Dec 3, 2016 00:18
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