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thechosenone posted:I dunno, I was thinking from how it was explained to me that there were lots of religions that did so, and that there were ones that were rather extremely so. I figure it would be hard to do something one thinks is wrong just because one's god(s) say(s) so, and that if one did, one would not be particularly happy about it, and it would probably be the kind of contentious thing with would either schism or other such things if it were really bad. have you like never met a gay christian or something
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Dec 1, 2016 01:06
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Mo Tzu posted:have you like never met a gay christian or something Well I figure the idea is that they downplay, strikethrough or just plain ignore parts that speak out against them, which is how they deal with that. So they probably don't hang out as often with other groups of Christians who don't like them so well. Basically, the religion conforms to what its adherents are okay with.
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Dec 1, 2016 01:11
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thechosenone posted:Well I figure the idea is that they downplay, strikethrough or just plain ignore parts that speak out against them, which is how they deal with that. So they probably don't hang out as often with other groups of Christians who don't like them so well. Ask me about knowing a gay dude who married a woman. Ask me about dating a gay dude who was sad that gay conversion therapy's founder disowned his theories. Ask me about the gay theology revolution that amounts to "we're following church teachings and are gay so get used to it" Not everyone rejects internalized homophobia
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Dec 1, 2016 01:16
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Hey, you gotta do something while waiting for American football to be invented. It's no problem!
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Dec 1, 2016 01:21
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Mo Tzu posted:Ask me about knowing a gay dude who married a woman. Ask me about dating a gay dude who was sad that gay conversion therapy's founder disowned his theories. Ask me about the gay theology revolution that amounts to "we're following church teachings and are gay so get used to it" Wow. I guess the idea I was going at was that they tend to do that, rather than always doing that. It probably doesn't help is what I'm saying. Also, is there a thread consensus on homophobia, or should I keep away from that? Pretty much main issue with alot of religion is more about alot of them conflicting with my own social/economic/political ideologies, more than anything else. cuz I mean, if it's not actively causing a problem because of riders on, not having to worry about getting dead probably goes a pretty far way towards helping one sleep at night, is probably pretty cool. thechosenone fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 01:23
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thechosenone posted:Also what is this threads opinion on Mormons? I know they seemed to be considered a entirely separate religion category from normal Christians now it seems. Mormons are very distinct theologically from the rest of Christianity and a lot of their beliefs clash with the Nicene Creed which is about the most basic formulation of small-o orthodox Christianity you could come up with. If they want to be called Christians, sure yeah, I'm not going to tell them they're not. But they're quite outside of orthodox Christianity. thechosenone posted:Well I figure the idea is that they downplay, strikethrough or just plain ignore parts that speak out against them, which is how they deal with that. So they probably don't hang out as often with other groups of Christians who don't like them so well. Err, I find this slightly offensive. A very large proportion of the regular posters in this thread are LGBTQ of some sort and you're sort of implying that for us to be Christian is cognitive dissonance, that Christianity is inherently homo/transphobic and we have to lie to ourselves to still be Christian. I'm also not sure what your larger point is here. Are diverse, pluralistic religions likely to attract more followers and survive longer than narrow, strict, exclusionist ones? Yeah, that seems fairly obvious. thechosenone posted:Also, is there a thread consensus on homophobia, or should I keep away from that? Pretty much main issue with alot of religion is more about alot of them conflicting with my own social/economic/political ideologies, more than anything else. even the posters who are not okay with gay marriage and such are against homophobia, and the politics of this thread are largely quite progressive/liberal in an American context You seem to think all Christians are like American Evangelicals or strict Catholics, it would do you some good to keep reading this thread because you will quickly discover this is not the case! Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 01:28
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Pellisworth posted:Mormons are very distinct theologically from the rest of Christianity and a lot of their beliefs clash with the Nicene Creed which is about the most basic formulation of small-o orthodox Christianity you could come up with. If they want to be called Christians, sure yeah, I'm not going to tell them they're not. But they're quite outside of orthodox Christianity. Well, sorry to be rude. I don't figure you consider those parts to still be true or whatnot, Just that you end of having to decide that isn't what it was about. I was under the impression that a lot of Christians back in the day. The idea would be one just reinterprets something so it aligns with them, strikes it through because they figure it isn't cool no more (parts of the old testament don't count anymore because of the new one right?), or just decides to ignore it to preserve the peace if an issue isn't too big to be ignored. You don't have to accept that stuff, though one likely would have to address it at some point, if just to say that it wasn't actually a valid rule, or that it wasn't useful anymore, or that it was an interpretation done by others and your just reinterpreting something.
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Dec 1, 2016 01:36
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Pellisworth posted:even the posters who are not okay with gay marriage and such are against homophobia, and the politics of this thread are largely quite progressive/liberal in an American context Well, yeah, that seems to be what I have to listen to often, so it does get hard to remember that there are plenty of Christians which don't agree with them. This thread does seem pretty reasonable, I do appreciate the effort you guys have put into speaking with me. I probably would have been banned if I had asked this somewhere less cool. thechosenone fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 01:40
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Pellisworth posted:even the posters who are not okay with gay marriage and such are against homophobia, and the politics of this thread are largely quite progressive/liberal in an American context Though I'm not so sure why people would have that big of a deal with marriage if they aren't homophobic, not to throw anyone under the bus. Just seems like if you figure they can be cool people, they can be cool couples. It's not like they have to breed with each other to raise children or anything. Which is probably assumptive of why they still wouldn't like them marrying, but eh. thechosenone fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 01:45
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thechosenone posted:Though I'm not so sure why people would have that big of a deal with marriage if they aren't homophobic, not to throw anyone under the bus. Just seems like if you figure they can be cool people, they can be cool couples. It's not like they have to breed with each other to raise children or anything. It's assumptive, yes, and also kinda gross to talk about people 'breeding'. The Catholic Church teaches (though not all Catholics believe, by any means) that it's impossible for two people of the same sex to have a sacramental marriage. Some Christians believe that secular marriage is so important to society that it's a religious issue which non-religious marriages are recognized by the government; this is true whether they think same-sex marriage is impossible, that it's possible but just shouldn't be permitted, or that it's possible and should be permitted.
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Dec 1, 2016 02:21
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zonohedron posted:It's assumptive, yes, and also kinda gross to talk about people 'breeding'. The Catholic Church teaches (though not all Catholics believe, by any means) that it's impossible for two people of the same sex to have a sacramental marriage. Some Christians believe that secular marriage is so important to society that it's a religious issue which non-religious marriages are recognized by the government; this is true whether they think same-sex marriage is impossible, that it's possible but just shouldn't be permitted, or that it's possible and should be permitted. Yeah, I'm gonna have to say my bad about that. Very bad choice of words and more on my part. But honestly, I feel like I'm not gonna have an easy time talking to you guys, since I've pretty much sort of built my expectations of christianity based on a pretty backwards group of them. So, rather than just blurt even more gross stuff after what I've already said, I do appreciate being able to converse with you guys, especially since I could have easily been made mincemeat out of several times during my conversation here in this thread. I might bother you again in a few weeks, next time with less awkward questions like, 'how did the idea of Santa Claus combine with christian Christmas stuff, if it did at all?' (that isn't like actually really weird to ask about is it cause holy poo poo does it seem like I've been on a roll with that lately the past couple days). thechosenone fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 02:32
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thechosenone posted:You don't have to accept that stuff, though one likely would have to address it at some point, if just to say that it wasn't actually a valid rule, or that it wasn't useful anymore, or that it was an interpretation done by others and your just reinterpreting something. For Christians who are fine with, for example, gay marriage, the answer to your quote here is "none of the above", assuming that you are referring to the biblical passages which are sometimes used to denounce homosexual things. For several schools of interpretation the gay stuff is no issue at all.
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Dec 1, 2016 02:48
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Lutha Mahtin posted:For Christians who are fine with, for example, gay marriage, the answer to your quote here is "none of the above", assuming that you are referring to the biblical passages which are sometimes used to denounce homosexual things. For several schools of interpretation the gay stuff is no issue at all. Aight. But yeah, seriously, don't mean to play that card and all that, but I do have a bit of trouble with the social sometimes, so I apologize for the awkwardness of my words. But yeah. will speak with you guys later after finals to ask about Christmas.
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Dec 1, 2016 02:56
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thechosenone posted:I might bother you again in a few weeks, next time with less awkward questions like, 'how did the idea of Santa Claus combine with christian Christmas stuff, if it did at all?' (that isn't like actually really weird to ask about is it cause holy poo poo does it seem like I've been on a roll with that lately the past couple days). Not weird at all! Santa Claus hit a heretic in the face and revived boys who were being pickled to be sold as meat. He's pretty awesome.
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Dec 1, 2016 02:59
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thechosenone posted:Aight. But yeah, seriously, don't mean to play that card and all that, but I do have a bit of trouble with the social sometimes, so I apologize for the awkwardness of my words. You are did quite well actually, in asking about it. My basic rule here is pretty much "don't come in with lots of assumptions about how you've gotten it figured out" and you passed that. That might sound like a pretty low bar, but somehow it seems like most people aren't even aware of the concept.
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Dec 1, 2016 03:14
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Wait what? poo poo that's pretty cool. I's it alright if I ask stupid questions like what saint or apostle would be most likely to be able to go super Saiyan? I just like connecting things to other things, I'm the kind of person who would love to hear metaphors extended well beyond their welcome.
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Dec 1, 2016 03:20
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thechosenone posted:Wait what? poo poo that's pretty cool. I's it alright if I ask stupid questions like what saint or apostle would be most likely to be able to go super Saiyan? I just like connecting things to other things, I'm the kind of person who would love to hear metaphors extended well beyond their welcome. You've come to the right place, son. Did you know that salvation is like an RPG?
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Dec 1, 2016 03:22
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Goku is a type of Samson.
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Dec 1, 2016 03:24
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thechosenone posted:Wait what? poo poo that's pretty cool. I's it alright if I ask stupid questions like what saint or apostle would be most likely to be able to go super Saiyan? I just like connecting things to other things, I'm the kind of person who would love to hear metaphors extended well beyond their welcome. absolutely, this thread regularly makes extended comparisons between Christianity and tabletop RPGs, for one the thread rules are: 1) don't be a dick 2) abort abortion chat
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Dec 1, 2016 03:57
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thechosenone posted:Wait what? poo poo that's pretty cool. I's it alright if I ask stupid questions like what saint or apostle would be most likely to be able to go super Saiyan? I just like connecting things to other things, I'm the kind of person who would love to hear metaphors extended well beyond their welcome. The Triad is an ersatz version of the Holy Trinity. You've got Tyr (God), Torm (Jesus), and Ilmater (the Holy Spirit).
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Dec 1, 2016 04:01
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thechosenone posted:Wait what? poo poo that's pretty cool. I's it alright if I ask stupid questions like what saint or apostle would be most likely to be able to go super Saiyan? I just like connecting things to other things, I'm the kind of person who would love to hear metaphors extended well beyond their welcome. Please direct all anime metaphors to me Patrick would go ssj
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Dec 1, 2016 04:05
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Pellisworth posted:absolutely, this thread regularly makes extended comparisons between Christianity and tabletop RPGs, for one Yeah, I'll definitely keep those in mind. so like how do power levels go in Christianity? Like, is it bishop->archbishop->cardinal->pope->saint->apostle->apostle(peter)/Mary-angels->Jesus/god/holy-spirit?
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Dec 1, 2016 04:07
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thechosenone posted:Yeah, I'll definitely keep those in mind. Angels are lower on the totem pole than humans Also that's Catholic rankings, other denominations have different hierarchies
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Dec 1, 2016 04:10
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Remember, all power comes from faith We could all be saints, even if we don't get our pictures up in the wall
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Dec 1, 2016 04:11
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Smoking Crow posted:Angels are lower on the totem pole than humans but is that about right for Catholics? Also are Angels really just suck? surely they have some sort of power? is it like how Namekians are more powerful than normal humans, but suck compared to the z-fighters?
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Dec 1, 2016 04:15
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Angels have powers but God likes us the best
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Dec 1, 2016 04:16
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Smoking Crow posted:Angels are lower on the totem pole than humans what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. Psalm 8:4-5 (emphasis added)
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Dec 1, 2016 04:16
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poo poo I'm blanking on the guy who said the entirety of creation was to get to Mary Pretended I said he said otherwise
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Dec 1, 2016 04:19
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Yeah I figure the angels are hella powerful. Maybe not as powerful as top tier apostles/Mary and all, but the highest ranking angels seem pretty stronk, and I would wager if ol' scratch hadn't fallen, he probably would only have been second to the trinity in pow-ah, or at least tied with a couple other folks for that. Mind you I'm no Christian, but you know, it seems like the idea was he kinda was a big deal before he poo poo the bed.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:24
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thechosenone posted:Yeah I figure the angels are hella powerful. Maybe not as powerful as top tier apostles/Mary and all, but the highest ranking angels seem pretty stronk, and I would wager if ol' scratch hadn't fallen, he probably would only have been second to the trinity in pow-ah, or at least tied with a couple other folks for that. note that Satan as fallen angel Lucifer is not in the Bible at all, actually e: well he is but the connection Lucifer = Satan = fallen angel is very tenuous Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 04:26
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Pellisworth posted:note that Satan as fallen angel Lucifer is not in the Bible at all, actually poo poo really? Where the heck did they get that part from then? a supplementary text? Frickin dlc makin me pay  to fight bonus bosses.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:28
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Pellisworth posted:note that Satan as fallen angel Lucifer is not in the Bible at all, actually All that stuff is in the book of Hezekiah. I read it myself.  Yes, I know there is no book of Hezekiah. That's the joke.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:28
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thechosenone posted:poo poo really? Where the heck did they get that part from then? a supplementary text? Frickin dlc makin me pay Most Christian mythology originated with the Divine Comedy or Paradise Lost.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:30
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Deteriorata posted:All that stuff is in the book of Hezekiah. I read it myself. That's like a corruption of like three biblical names right?
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Dec 1, 2016 04:30
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Deteriorata posted:Most Christian mythology originated with the Divine Comedy or Paradise Lost. Cool. So, then if we are talking about the Satan who isn't necessarily bad (where he is like a prosecutor or something?), then where would he fall on the angelic power levels, to avoid human/eyewheel balance discussions? thechosenone fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 04:33
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thechosenone posted:That's like a corruption of like three biblical names right? No, he was a king of Judah mentioned in 2Kings. He reigned about 700 BC. His most famous claim was cutting an aqueduct under Jerusalem which still exists.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:34
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thechosenone posted:poo poo really? Where the heck did they get that part from then? a supplementary text? Frickin dlc makin me pay Isaiah 14:12 talks about a "morning star" (translated in some versions of the Bible as Lucifer) being mighty and then being cast down, but it's probably poo poo-talking about a Babylonian King So, the connection of Satan = Lucifer = fallen angel is based on a very questionable interpretation of one Bible verse thechosenone posted:Cool. I'm of the opinion Satan is not actually a being or entity at all he's just a personification / metaphor for sinful desires and temptation Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 04:34
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thechosenone posted:Cool. The "satan" mentioned in Job is more of an office than a specific being. The Satan was sort of the prosecutor in the heavenly court who brought charges against the dead, who then had to defend themselves. The snake in the Garden of Eden was most likely just supposed to be a snake. In the folk tales of the area, snakes were the tricksters who often convinced people to do dumb things - sort of like the monkey in Indian and Chinese folk tales or coyote in Native American ones. The beast in Revelation was symbolic of earthly powers, not supernatural ones. People have tried to weave disparate characters from 1,000 years apart into a single figure that doesn't actually fit any of them.
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Dec 1, 2016 04:43
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Deteriorata posted:The "satan" mentioned in Job is more of an office than a specific being. The Satan was sort of the prosecutor in the heavenly court who brought charges against the dead, who then had to defend themselves. So what kind of earthly powers, and would its dbz metaphor be bio-Broly? thechosenone fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 04:45
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thechosenone posted:So what kind of earthly powers, and would its dbz metaphor be bio-Broly? "Earthly powers" as in the Roman Empire and its emperors - wielders of power. Not like laser beam eyes and stuff.
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