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Floodkiller posted:I think you can find most mid tier weapons if you go to Orc, which is around Lair. Orc warriors, knights, and warlords have a lot of common mid tier weapon variety. Orc is generally after Lair, tho, going by the 'order' thing in IRC of D1-10, Lair, D11-12, Orc, D13-14, S et al.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:23
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Shinino Kage posted:Orc is generally after Lair, tho, going by the 'order' thing in IRC of D1-10, Lair, D11-12, Orc, D13-14, S et al. I have decent success doing Lair 1-2 (or until I see a hydra if I don't have a flaming edged weapon or a morningstar or better blunt weapon that I know how to use, if I'm dependent on killing them in melee), then Orc 1, then consider my options from there. That Orc 1 is pretty good at shoring up gear at that point.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:25
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Still, I don't think any QoL changes helped pure casters and that's pretty much the only thing I play. Certainly not enough to offset poo poo like stasis and rmut being gone now. Add to that a slew of annoying little changes like ignite poison becoming way less useful and... ehh, I think I'll stay where I am.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:25
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Aumanor posted:I'm not touching the newer releases util they bring back the ability to eat poisonous chunks (so most likely never). That was the worst change in a sea of bad changes. Fitzy Fitz posted:OK, that one does actually annoy me. Anything that increases chunk/hunger tedium is bad. the change to remove poisonous chunks removed the minigame of "ok, i'm hungry. time to swap to an rPois item, eat something, and then swap out again." how did it increase 'tedium'?
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Dec 1, 2016 21:43
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The biggest reason to play the latest version is so that I can read any of the advice from this thread and apply it to my game without having to double check the mechanics haven't changed.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:43
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Aumanor posted:Still, I don't think any QoL changes helped pure casters and that's pretty much the only thing I play. Certainly not enough to offset poo poo like stasis and rmut being gone now. Add to that a slew of annoying little changes like ignite poison becoming way less useful and... ehh, I think I'll stay where I am. i'm told that ignite poison is currently insanely strong and may need a nerf, actually. have you tried it with OTR?
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Dec 1, 2016 21:44
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Prism posted:I have decent success doing Lair 1-2 (or until I see a hydra if I don't have a flaming edged weapon or a morningstar or better blunt weapon that I know how to use, if I'm dependent on killing them in melee), then Orc 1, then consider my options from there. That Orc 1 is pretty good at shoring up gear at that point. Valid point. Still, I don't see how increasing the chances of finding Scimitars/Morning Stars/Broad Axes/Quarterstaves before Lair makes anything trivial, nor does starting people with Long Swords / Flails / War Axes / Quarterstaves in general.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:58
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PleasingFungus posted:the change to remove poisonous chunks removed the minigame of "ok, i'm hungry. time to swap to an rPois item, eat something, and then swap out again." how did it increase 'tedium'? If you happen to be wearing rpois already, which is common enough, you didn't have to wait for the right kind of corpse. It's really apparent in Spider and Snake, where I'm always grateful for something like a tarantella to come along. I never played the rpois minigame you're talking about. I know that's the kind of optimal play that some people feel obligated to stick to, but you always had the choice of just ignoring it. Now everyone just has fewer food options.
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Dec 1, 2016 21:58
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i just want to say, whoever is adding damage numbers into the xv creature tooltips is doing the lord's work, and i love you
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Dec 1, 2016 22:01
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PleasingFungus posted:i'm told that ignite poison is currently insanely strong and may need a nerf, actually. have you tried it with OTR? It is really strong. You can drop some poison/mephitic clouds in a room and then blow the whole thing up. It takes some coordination though, and it's also a pretty reasonable way for poison mages to branch out and kill poison resistant stuff. someone awful. posted:i just want to say, The in-game clarifications for things like damage and min-delay are great. Oh, and the % for hex rolls. Love that. Fitzy Fitz fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 22:02
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Is there a way to make the messages area bigger in webtiles? I tried adjusting msg_min_height and msg_max_height but I couldn't get the message area to actually become taller. Some settings made the viewport disappear, so it was doing something.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:09
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PleasingFungus posted:i'm told that ignite poison is currently insanely strong and may need a nerf, actually. have you tried it with OTR? Ehh, I preferred it when it just murdered the gently caress out of Spider and Snake.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:10
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Shinino Kage posted:Orc is generally after Lair, tho, going by the 'order' thing in IRC of D1-10, Lair, D11-12, Orc, D13-14, S et al. The 'order' is a good guide, but it is created for standard luck under the assumption that the number one priority for you at that moment is to gain as much experience for as little risk as possible. It's important to recognize when to deviate from it due to something else taking priority. For example, if you're in Lair and still using a hand axe, maybe take a quick stop at Orc and burn some god powers/evocable/consumables to scrape up something better. Also, answering your suggestion earlier about starting weapon quality, the only backgrounds with improved starting weapons are Fi and Gl. This is because the other parts of their kit (shield/scale mail, throwing nets) are nowhere near good enough to make up for only having melee as an option, since Fi will usually ditch their shield for a two-handed and Gl can't just throw nets whenever due to the mulch rate. Without those upgraded weapons, there would be no reason to pick either over a Mo/Zealot/hybrid book backgrounds. Giving everyone these upgraded weapons would necessitate giving Fi/Gl an even higher tier, leading to a power creep. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 22:12
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Fitzy Fitz posted:If you happen to be wearing rpois already, which is common enough, you didn't have to wait for the right kind of corpse. It's really apparent in Spider and Snake, where I'm always grateful for something like a tarantella to come along. I do the same thing, only switching from rpois to another resistance if I into something obviously elemental and really threatening like a fire or ice giant and otherwise leave it on the whole time. This is a case where I think a change was made based on the top 1% of players playstyles. I think your average player that finds a ring of rpois keeps it on until he finds an artifact ring with rpois or a piece of equipment that's branded rpois.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:15
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Floodkiller posted:The 'order' is a good guide, but it is created for standard luck under the assumption that the number one priority for you at that moment is to gain as much experience for as little risk as possible. It's important to recognize when to deviate from it due to something else taking priority. For example, if you're in Lair and still using a hand axe, maybe take a quick stop at Orc and burn some god powers/evocable/consumables to scrape up something better. Fair enough point -- what about increasing the odds of those 2nd-3rd tier weapons before Lair? And what about Acquirement issues?
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Dec 1, 2016 22:18
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Carcer posted:I do the same thing, only switching from rpois to another resistance if I into something obviously elemental and really threatening like a fire or ice giant and otherwise leave it on the whole time. Yeah, Lair without rpois was always painful, both due to chunks and the damage, to the point where I'd usually delay it in favour of diving deeper into the dungeon if I haven't found a source before the staircase.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:21
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Floodkiller posted:The 'order' is a good guide, but it is created for standard luck under the assumption that the number one priority for you at that moment is to gain as much experience for as little risk as possible. It's important to recognize when to deviate from it due to something else taking priority. For example, if you're in Lair and still using a hand axe, maybe take a quick stop at Orc and burn some god powers/evocable/consumables to scrape up something better. There are about a dozen ways to improve the Fi and Gl start that aren't 'give them the next damage tier weapon'.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:27
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Fitzy Fitz posted:If you happen to be wearing rpois already, which is common enough, you didn't have to wait for the right kind of corpse. It's really apparent in Spider and Snake, where I'm always grateful for something like a tarantella to come along. Let's add chunks for every resistance. Eat red chunks with rN+! Bright red chunks with rN++! Acidic chunks that need rCorr!
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Dec 1, 2016 22:40
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Under the old system you could still choose to eat permafood if you didn't want to butcher a corpse. I'm also not sure why you where butchering every corpse unless you were also doing something with sublimation/simulcrum. There was no harm in keeping the old system, one that a new player would either find through experimentation or not ever be inconvenienced by.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:51
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Carcer posted:Under the old system you could still choose to eat permafood if you didn't want to butcher a corpse. I'm also not sure why you where butchering every corpse unless you were also doing something with sublimation/simulcrum.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:02
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So how would anything be different now if you could still eat poison chunks? They'd still get auto-butchered if you could eat them and you could save some food, though thats mostly irrelevant due to the amount of food you get. Its a change that only people who wanted to keep it around really care about, and even then its probably a really minimal issue for them. So why not keep poison chunks?
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Dec 1, 2016 23:09
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Fitzy Fitz posted:If you happen to be wearing rpois already, which is common enough, you didn't have to wait for the right kind of corpse. It's really apparent in Spider and Snake, where I'm always grateful for something like a tarantella to come along. All poison chunks added to the game was give you the illusion that you had more food (even though you already have enough) if you arbitrarily found a certain subset of items. Even if you think that poisonous chunks had a meaningful impact on food changes there's a way less stupid thing to do: just change the edibility of various corpses (I'm pretty sure tarantellas, for example, used to be poisonous.) Can Of Worms fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 23:14
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I still don't understand how having to occasionally eat permafood in a branch or two is worse having to constantly hit c over every corpse, like you did in older versions. There's no universe where it's more tedious now. Overall food is way less tedious now. I'm not disagreeing with that. The poison change, specifically, just removed one food option from the game. There was no reason to remove it other than powergamers being weird. I miss Hive though, so maybe I'm just being difficult. BTW, how do you add auto-butcher? What does it do? I'm really out of the loop when it comes to RC changes.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:18
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Carcer posted:So how would anything be different now if you could still eat poison chunks? They'd still get auto-butchered if you could eat them and you could save some food, though thats mostly irrelevant due to the amount of food you get. I'm in favor of removing things that don't "pay rent" in terms of interesting decisions for the complexity they add. Chunks that you can only sometimes eat weren't even close.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:20
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Can Of Worms posted:rPois is not that common by the time you reach Lair. I've played plenty of games where the closest source of rPois was leather armour on a melee bruiser or heavy armour on a caster. I also have a bunch of games on older versions (0.16 to mess with Singularity and 0.15 to check out old boxes of beasts) and I just end up ignoring poisonous chunks, it's way less effort to just eat some permafood because the games always gives you more than enough to win. It's not about survivability. It was just a little bit of extra flexibility for dealing with the annoyance of constantly having to eat food. I understand the hunger mechanic, but I don't actually enjoy it, so it bugged me that a food option was removed.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:24
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I'm of the opinion that food should probably be removed since its almost completely meaningless except for a couple races. To more directly address the rpois chunk thing, if nobody is going to complain if you keep the feature but some people are going to complain by removing it, why remove it?
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Dec 1, 2016 23:27
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Carcer posted:I'm of the opinion that food should probably be removed since its almost completely meaningless except for a couple races. To more directly address the rpois chunk thing, if nobody is going to complain if you keep the feature but some people are going to complain by removing it, why remove it?
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Dec 1, 2016 23:29
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Fitzy Fitz posted:It's not about survivability. It was just a little bit of extra flexibility for dealing with the annoyance of constantly having to eat food. I understand the hunger mechanic, but I don't actually enjoy it, so it bugged me that a food option was removed.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:31
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If that's the only criteria for what gets the axe and what doesn't then its not getting applied consistently. Lots of monsters need to go then, since they're functionally the same. There are some weapons can probably be gotten rid of as well since they're not meaningfully different. Spells too could use some pruning to get rid of those judged "extraneous".
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Dec 1, 2016 23:35
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That's been happening all the time. Hammers, ammo brands, wasps, death jackals, sheep. Removing is more complex that just deleting some lines of code. There are plenty of things that devs want to remove, but the actual removals are done on a "does a dev have the time and motivation to actually review the code" basis.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:38
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Carcer posted:If that's the only criteria for what gets the axe and what doesn't then its not getting applied consistently. Lots of monsters need to go then, since they're functionally the same. There are some weapons can probably be gotten rid of as well since they're not meaningfully different. Spells too could use some pruning to get rid of those judged "extraneous". IMO Merge staves and maces as a start - "dire flail" becomes lajatang and it's done.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:39
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As far as I can tell food is still around as a check against extreme scumming. Mummies get a pass because they are quite disadvantaged elsewhere.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:41
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Carcer posted:If that's the only criteria for what gets the axe and what doesn't then its not getting applied consistently. Lots of monsters need to go then, since they're functionally the same. There are some weapons can probably be gotten rid of as well since they're not meaningfully different. Spells too could use some pruning to get rid of those judged "extraneous". Regarding rP & food: I've played back when you could swap in an amulet of gourmand and chew through a big pile of chunks. Was it strictly necessary to win the game? No way! Did people do it? Sure thing, me included. Simply because it can be done. Removing this option makes the game *smoother* to play, not less. Poisonous chunks were the little brother of the gourmand problem. Perhaps food can eventually go at some point. It's not so trivial because food is intertwined thoroughly, and does (way too) many things. In my games, it sometimes has a noticeable effect on my casters.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:43
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Can Of Worms posted:The flexibility didn't actually exist, though. Nowadays when I play I just pick up all the permafood I see and eventually I get to the point where I just chow down on it to free up space in my inventory instead of eating chunks, and I *still* have enough to go through the game. I don't doubt that. I'm probably trying too hard to conserve my food. But if that's the rationale for removing poison chunks, why are edible chunks still in the game at all?
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Dec 1, 2016 23:43
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Dire flails are really stupid and probably should go. I think they have the exact same stats as a morningstar except they're 2 handed. The staves thing wouldn't work if only because it'd mean wizards who want to use a booster staff are also really good with proper weapons.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:46
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Can Of Worms posted:Even if you think that poisonous chunks had a meaningful impact on food changes there's a way less stupid thing to do: just change the edibility of various corpses (I'm pretty sure tarantellas, for example, used to be poisonous.) yep! tarantellas, orb spiders, torpor snails, and the late, lamented beetle clan (goliath, boulder, and boring) were all poisonous before, and were changed to be edible as part of the removal of poisonous chunks. Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:IMO Merge staves and maces as a start - "dire flail" becomes lajatang and it's done. staves have a niche. they're low-investment weapons perfect for 'casters'. none of the weapons in the class have a high delay, quarterstaves are good early, elemental staves are good with spell skills, and if you're lucky enough to find a lajatang, you're set. (a lajatang is a heck of a lot better than a dire flail, btw!) m&f weapons are much better for 'pure melee' characters, especially those not following gifting gods, since the great mace is by far the most common top-end melee weapon.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:46
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I don't doubt that. I'm probably trying too hard to conserve my food. I liked it a lot, though it was noticeably different in that you were always engorged rather than just not hungry. So it was very rare to run out of food during a fight, even when you berserk and cast big spells and whatnot. To me this was fine but I think it wasn't adopted because the devs decided that was worthwhile as a check on stuff like berserk - now you have to choose to go engorged to prepare for big fights.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:47
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someone awful. posted:Long blades are also there rarest class of weapon to show up, iirc (especially in higher qualities, like anything beyond a great sword) I still prefer going axes or maces though. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Dec 1, 2016 23:50
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Swords are great for stair dancing formicids and in large part contributed to me bieng able to dismantle the V5 ambush and the Tomb 3 clusterfuck. Anything that can get decent EV should consider swords purely for riposte.
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Dec 1, 2016 23:59
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Can Of Worms posted:sheep  dpeg posted:Perhaps food can eventually go at some point. It's not so trivial because food is intertwined thoroughly, and does (way too) many things. In my games, it sometimes has a noticeable effect on my casters.
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Dec 2, 2016 00:00
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