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Also a balanced diet should be illegal because currently the average person in this medieval poo poo hole has the correct natural true human intelligence based on their poor childhood and long term nutrition and lack of healthcare. Once we start feeding people a balanced diet their health and brain power will grow and they'll all become genocidal tyrants mad with power. It's also cheating the natural and true human experience. Next you'll say we should educate peasants and make everyone literate. Imagine if everyone was literate! It would fill people's heads with power and cause the destruction of society. The current status quo right now is good and natural and an intrinsic part of the human experience, any change to that is playing god and dangerous.
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Dec 1, 2016 22:21
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Kibayasu posted:The elite guard are military/police drop-outs and discharges with mismatched and inappropriately coloured camouflage gear who are also wearing a bunch of tacticool gear they don't even need. Remove the bit about police drop outs and this is just the real police
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Dec 1, 2016 22:59
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LinkesAuge posted:The role of genetic engineering is one of those things that will look really dated to future generations and it's treatment maybe even considered downright barbaric. I mean I understand the "message" behind it but it's morally very questionable not to make everyone super smart/healthy/strong etc. if you had the possibility (the only issues arises when such a treatment is limited to certain people/groups but that's really not different to medicine in general). I guess it will also look kinda stupid that genetic adjustments (=being "too" smart) somehow makes you a super villain (well it already did look stupid when you thought about it). This is one of those things that makes a lot more sense when you keep some historical perspective in mind. The kind of eugenics that "Space Seed" was trafficking in wasn't benevolent advancement of the whole human race via scientific achievement, it was racist elevation of the ubermensch by eliminating the undesirables from gene pool dressed up in a facade of scientific respectability. And guess which one was being far more strongly promoted through the earlier part of the 20th century? Before the Nazis laid bare the real endgame of this line of thinking, eugenics was a fairly popular scientific and sociological theory that would've been in the living memory of most of the audience. The only difference between eugenics as it was known then and the same concerns with modern genetic engineering is how long it takes to get results. And I don't mean to pick on you specifically but quote:(the only issues arises when such a treatment is limited to certain people/groups but that's really not different to medicine in general) I hear this sentiment all the time with regards to genetic upgrades but unless the full ubermensch package has zero side effects and is released as a free self-replicating airborne vaccine, yeah, there's no way not to avoid an immediate split between the haves and have-nots that would combine all the worst aspects of aristocracy, class stratification, race and first/third world divisions combined. About the only medical treatments with with as dramatic a shift on human identity would be like, panimmunity or genetic immortality.
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Dec 2, 2016 00:00
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McSpanky posted:I hear this sentiment all the time with regards to genetic upgrades but unless the full ubermensch package has zero side effects and is released as a free self-replicating airborne vaccine, yeah, there's no way not to avoid an immediate split between the haves and have-nots that would combine all the worst aspects of aristocracy, class stratification, race and first/third world divisions combined. About the only medical treatments with with as dramatic a shift on human identity would be like, panimmunity or genetic immortality. Unless it all collapsed because the spliced-up kids had massive problems and the upgrade packages were litigated, which seems like the most likely outcome, honestly. LinkesAuge posted:The role of genetic engineering is one of those things that will look really dated to future generations and it's treatment maybe even considered downright barbaric. I mean I understand the "message" behind it but it's morally very questionable not to make everyone super smart/healthy/strong etc. if you had the possibility (the only issues arises when such a treatment is limited to certain people/groups but that's really not different to medicine in general). I guess it will also look kinda stupid that genetic adjustments (=being "too" smart) somehow makes you a super villain (well it already did look stupid when you thought about it).
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Dec 2, 2016 00:21
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Nessus posted:Yeah, there is absolutely no way anything like this would be distributed equitably and fairly even if we did have a great moral awakening in the near future. Even if the upgrade package didn't do much (and at least in Trek, becoming an Ubermensch doesn't seem to make you an insurmountable unthinkable elite mega-being beyond the ken of the unspliced, merely very smart and clever), it would probably become a tool for massive elitism. I wouldn't go so far to say that Trek writers think it's bad to be smart, but there's quite a lot of Trek to the thematic effect that reason pushes us away from true humanity. Every Trek show has a character who is more logical, rational, scientific, and intellectual than the rest, but struggles to interact with others socially and is alienated, sometimes very literally, from a normal emotional life. In fact that kind of semi-sympathetic, semi-mocking portrayal of an obligatory aspie character is probably one of the most consistent attributes of the franchise because it's guaranteed to resonate with sci-fi fans. Or even stepping away from that, there's plenty of episodes to the effect that perfection and knowledge are good, but human error is better -- TOS is most blatant about it with Kirk constantly talking down godlike energy beings and supercomputers with good homespun human common sense. It's not that it portrays smartness as being bad, but that it draws a dichotomy between reason and passion and generally comes down on the side of passion.
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Dec 2, 2016 00:38
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skasion posted:It's not that it portrays smartness as being bad, but that it draws a dichotomy between reason and passion and generally comes down on the side of passion. Eh, I'd take away that the message was that one without the other is bad. I mean, that was the whole point of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy triad - Spock was reason above passion, McCoy was passion above reason, and Kirk was the ideal of combining the two in balance. We saw more episodes of passionless logic monsters being put down because there's a trend in sci-fi to imagine overly logical reason as the ultimate course of development. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 2, 2016 |
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Dec 2, 2016 00:42
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I don't think that McCoy is meant to be passion above reason. He's a doctor, not a crystal healer. Empirical observation and reasoning are his business, for all that he's personally hot tempered and conservative he isn't normally an irrational figure. Spock is a superb scientist, but it's directly because he thinks, or attempts to think, without human feeling that his intellect is superior. If anything Kirk is the over-passionate one.
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Dec 2, 2016 00:49
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skasion posted:I wouldn't go so far to say that Trek writers think it's bad to be smart, but there's quite a lot of Trek to the thematic effect that reason pushes us away from true humanity. Every Trek show has a character who is more logical, rational, scientific, and intellectual than the rest, but struggles to interact with others socially and is alienated, sometimes very literally, from a normal emotional life. In fact that kind of semi-sympathetic, semi-mocking portrayal of an obligatory aspie character is probably one of the most consistent attributes of the franchise because it's guaranteed to resonate with sci-fi fans. Or even stepping away from that, there's plenty of episodes to the effect that perfection and knowledge are good, but human error is better -- TOS is most blatant about it with Kirk constantly talking down godlike energy beings and supercomputers with good homespun human common sense. It's not that it portrays smartness as being bad, but that it draws a dichotomy between reason and passion and generally comes down on the side of passion.
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Dec 2, 2016 01:06
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Dec 2, 2016 01:08
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Nessus posted:I may be getting biased by watching more DS9 lately, where there seem to be plenty of people who are motivated by essentially emotional reasons vs. the evil space computers in TOS and so on. What I guess I get out of it, is that Trek says that reason is vital, but can't be the only constituent. Isn't there an episode later on where the gene-spliced brain trust basically say "We should surrender to the Dominion and accept their organization and various purges because our projections are that in several hundred years we will be able to throw them off/take over the joint ourselves"? It's more "We cannot win this, there is no actual way to achieve victory, surrendering now and getting their mercy is the only way to survive." and then they add that yeah down the road we might have a different choice. But yes. I think Trek wants to demonstrate that we probably need more reason as a species, but we do not need it to the exclusion of all else, and that our emotions are a vital part of us as well.
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Dec 2, 2016 01:31
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Also a big problem is that getting to a reliable treatment is going to involve human(oid) experimentation at some point. DS9 showed us that there are cases where the kind of augmentation Bashir received resulted in substantially negative side-effects for some people. But we're not talking about saving lives here, we're talking about making people smarter in a civilization where no individual has to be particularly good at anything in order to live comfortably, so what's the real gain that's worth inflicting those negative effects on unlucky individuals during the course of experimentation? "Sorry you're a terminal goonlord that nobody wants to be around, but your sacrifice means that we can all move beyond 3D chess and into 4D chess!"
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Dec 2, 2016 02:22
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Their future-prediction that if they surrender in like 100 years a revolt will form on earth and defeat the dominion and create an even better federation was bullshit because a few episodes later Weyun is all "Oh hey when we win the war we should exterminate earth since it's the heart of the federation and without it it will never cause trouble"
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Dec 2, 2016 02:27
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McSpanky posted:This is one of those things that makes a lot more sense when you keep some historical perspective in mind. The kind of eugenics that "Space Seed" was trafficking in wasn't benevolent advancement of the whole human race via scientific achievement, it was racist elevation of the ubermensch by eliminating the undesirables from gene pool dressed up in a facade of scientific respectability. Human society in Trek makes a bit more sense when you posit that, as a species, they never quite got over World War 3 and the Eugenics Wars.
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Dec 2, 2016 02:54
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Baronjutter posted:Their future-prediction that if they surrender in like 100 years a revolt will form on earth and defeat the dominion and create an even better federation was bullshit because a few episodes later Weyun is all "Oh hey when we win the war we should exterminate earth since it's the heart of the federation and without it it will never cause trouble" Though you know, the Dominion is going to have a problem because I'm sure they'll miss SOME Starfleet or Klingon vessels and they would then go and do all kinds of bullshit to the timestream. Especially the Klingons.
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Dec 2, 2016 02:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apuN1V7_MvI
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Dec 2, 2016 03:12
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Baronjutter posted:Their future-prediction that if they surrender in like 100 years a revolt will form on earth and defeat the dominion and create an even better federation was bullshit because a few episodes later Weyun is all "Oh hey when we win the war we should exterminate earth since it's the heart of the federation and without it it will never cause trouble" This is precisely why accelerationism is dumb. I mean, besides all the other reasons.
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Dec 2, 2016 03:21
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Also a big problem is that getting to a reliable treatment is going to involve human(oid) experimentation at some point. DS9 showed us that there are cases where the kind of augmentation Bashir received resulted in substantially negative side-effects for some people. But we're not talking about saving lives here, we're talking about making people smarter in a civilization where no individual has to be particularly good at anything in order to live comfortably, so what's the real gain that's worth inflicting those negative effects on unlucky individuals during the course of experimentation? Well the version that they did on Bashir and the SpergGang was one thing, and had negative side effects, but the version that allows them to be smart and well adjusted and charismatic was already perfected in the 20th century. But of course, that leads to them being psychopaths with superior ambition...
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Dec 2, 2016 03:35
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Astroman posted:Well the version that they did on Bashir and the SpergGang was one thing, and had negative side effects, but the version that allows them to be smart and well adjusted and charismatic was already perfected in the 20th century. But of course, that leads to them being psychopaths with superior ambition...
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Dec 2, 2016 03:41
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Rhyno posted:Enterprise 3x12 ends with Archer basically saying "gently caress you and gently caress religion." Rhyno posted:With every episode Archer continues to become the best Captain. Compared to this speech? No chance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTaj4nNH5ko
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Dec 2, 2016 03:48
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Nessus posted:I would hesitate to call a man who tries to jack his rescuer's starship in order to carve out a star empire "well adjusted." Right, if Kahn had actually been well adjusted he would have played the long game. What's one ship in a galaxy you barely know.
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Dec 2, 2016 04:05
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Yeah, both Kahn and data's kids were all idiots. Data Sr.'s all like "hey we got these babies lets go somewhere no one will ever find us and build a civilization" and they all be like "NO WE NEED TO TURN AND FIGHT!!" and they all dead now and then data goes off to make data.
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Dec 2, 2016 05:52
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8one6 posted:Right, if Kahn had actually been well adjusted he would have played the long game. What's one ship in a galaxy you barely know.
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Dec 2, 2016 06:58
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Astroman posted:Well the version that they did on Bashir and the SpergGang was one thing, and had negative side effects, but the version that allows them to be smart and well adjusted and charismatic was already perfected in the 20th century. But of course, that leads to them being psychopaths with superior ambition... Existing issues with 20th century supermen aside, I find it also entirely plausible that the techniques used to produce them were destroyed or otherwise lost in the chaos of the following century.
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Dec 2, 2016 07:49
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It does seem like one of those immersion breaking things where you realize the writers in the sixties were talking about Nazi style "eugenics" and on DS9 it's writers from a different era who grew up in world where "eugenics" means Gattaca style and don't realize that the TOS writers probably meant something different. It's like how it can be odd in old sci-fi how no-one has a smartphone because the writer couldn't conceive it, The writers in TOS could't really conceive what modern "genetic engineering" is.
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Dec 2, 2016 08:01
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Now that you mention it, it is kind of weird the TOS objection to eugenics is that it works too well and the ubermensch will conquer the world when purged of undesirables.
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Dec 2, 2016 08:10
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galagazombie posted:It does seem like one of those immersion breaking things where you realize the writers in the sixties were talking about Nazi style "eugenics" and on DS9 it's writers from a different era who grew up in world where "eugenics" means Gattaca style and don't realize that the TOS writers probably meant something different. It's like how it can be odd in old sci-fi how no-one has a smartphone because the writer couldn't conceive it, The writers in TOS could't really conceive what modern "genetic engineering" is. They retconned Khan into being properly genetically engineered in TWOK, actually.
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Dec 2, 2016 08:45
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You mean a retKhan?
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Dec 2, 2016 08:50
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WickedHate posted:Now that you mention it, it is kind of weird the TOS objection to eugenics is that it works too well and the ubermensch will conquer the world when purged of undesirables.
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Dec 2, 2016 10:18
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Sorry if this has been posted before, but has anyone seen GR's Star Trek IV idea? Frustratingly, it cuts off about 2/3rds of the way into the plot, meaning nothing really gets explained. It is hilariously bloated, terribly misguided and kind of interesting. http://www.roddenberry.com/media/vault/ST4-Outline.pdf
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Dec 2, 2016 10:35
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Nessus posted:Well, they didn't conquer the world in practice; it seemed to mostly be "This sure does produce some Hitlers, but with some sci fi stuff behind it so we can introduce the idea simply." Sort of like the guy who introduced a "Nazi system" because it was "efficient," though that may have been how they thought it went back in the 60s. Indeed they did! It was a common myth back then that Mussolini and Hitler were terrible but "made the trains run on time" when in fact every organization under them was an absolute clusterfuck at best and a clusterfuck spending all it's time sabotaging it's "rival" organization at worst.
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Dec 2, 2016 17:54
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah they could have made him a diplomat to the Pakled's or something. lmao
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Dec 2, 2016 18:08
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Dirty posted:Sorry if this has been posted before, but has anyone seen GR's Star Trek IV idea? Frustratingly, it cuts off about 2/3rds of the way into the plot, meaning nothing really gets explained. It is hilariously bloated, terribly misguided and kind of interesting. Cocaine is a hell of a drug. Edit: From the same site, Roddenberry having a small fit about the Trek III script. Timby fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Dec 2, 2016 |
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Dec 2, 2016 18:58
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Discovery gets trainwreckier.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:18
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Here's the full Newsweek piece. This just sounds like a complete shitshow.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:23
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It doesn't sound like a shitshow at all. Fuller over-extended himself and decided to focus on the complex prestige drama for a premium network over a low-budget reboot for Netflix. It's not complicated. I'm not saying it's gonna be amazing but y'all are reading disaster into every article about this show.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:32
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Zurui posted:It doesn't sound like a shitshow at all. Fuller over-extended himself and decided to focus on the complex prestige drama for a premium network over a low-budget reboot for Netflix. It's not complicated. quote:“They have my number and if they need me I will absolutely be there for them,” he said. Fuller isn't one to bullshit, this sounds like an amicable "Jesus I got too much to do" mutual break-up. He did for Discovery what a lot of EPs/co-creators do: help get the show off the ground and step away. He just also happened to be original co-showrunner.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:36
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Somewhere Rick Berman is frantically searching through his address book for the number of a CBS executive.
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Dec 2, 2016 21:38
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Cojawfee posted:Somewhere Rick Berman is frantically searching through his address book for the number of a CBS executive. Berman was in charge of that insanely boring dinosaur show a few years back, right?
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Dec 2, 2016 21:47
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Zurui posted:It doesn't sound like a shitshow at all. Fuller over-extended himself and decided to focus on the complex prestige drama for a premium network over a low-budget reboot for Netflix. It's not complicated. In this particular instance it's because the original announcement regarding the split implied Fuller would still be consulting in some fashion for this show. IIRC, we also didn't know exactly how far his involvement had been for production thus far. This confirms that Fuller is only involved with two episodes and the general tone of the show. This leaves Discovery in the hands of two showrunners most famous for producing a bunch of short-lived recent shows and Roswell. Roswell.
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Dec 2, 2016 22:09
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VanSandman posted:Berman was in charge of that insanely boring dinosaur show a few years back, right? Assuming you're talking about Terra Nova, that was Brannon Braga.
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Dec 2, 2016 22:50
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