|
Business Gorillas posted:while you were tripping over yourself to make this own, you forgot that his idea was "new deal capitalism just exported the misery" We can export the misery to robots now so we good in that front
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:07 |
|
|
Yeah, and I also am aware he said it in the context of it being a good reason to prefer socialism to capitalism, as if the Iron Curtain and poo poo like that hadn't existed I guess. Gonna have to go with the human nature argument here. People gently caress up any system. Also bitching about social democracies on the grounds that they can go to the right must be a difficult road to hoe from a left-wing point of view since every basically country that used to identify as communist did the exact same thing circa 1991-2000.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:29
|
|
This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
|
JeffersonClay posted:I'm not sure they prefer work, but let's assume they do. Maybe the reason they prefer employment programs to welfare is employment programs help hard working americans whereas welfare is for lazy brown people. Have a genuine go at understanding it from their point of view. When I work (in a decent job) I have at least the impression that I have some power. I can withdraw my labour, move jobs, work harder or slack off, try to get a promotion, make decisions, exert control. What power do I have when I receive UBI? A vote every four years?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
Nermal posted:Have a genuine go at understanding it from their point of view. You can do whatever you want with your free time instead of doing what your supervisor tells you?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:36
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Are you literally wearing a red diaper right now At this point conventional wisdom about what's politically possible and what's not seems kinda suspect. Also actually existing Social Democracy is a garbage ideology because it leaves the economic power in society in the hands of people who want to destroy it. This is a really dumb thing to do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:40
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:At this point conventional wisdom about what's politically possible and what's not seems kinda suspect. As an American looking across the pond at Scandinavia all of these theoretical critiques of social democracy seem like the ultimate in pointless left wing navel gazing. I honestly don't give a poo poo about your abstract theories. I want health care and education and I can look at our system, recognize it isn't working, and look at the Scandinavian system and recognize that it is. Like, seriously. Im sick of explaining to people why they're going to die because they can't get health care coverage.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:45
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Democracies are always vulnerable to right-wing ideologies. "Make the US more like Denmark or Norway" is a pretty fair summary of Bernie's economic agenda, right? Now we find out that's just more compromise with the capitalists that is doomed to fail? However people seem to have figured out that globalization is loving them over and they're tired of all the gains in productivity going to a handful of people. People are sharpening up the guillotines and the answer to that is definitely not "okay let's try this same thing once more, only we'll do it right this time, honest". JeffersonClay posted:I'm not sure they prefer work, but let's assume they do. Maybe the reason they prefer employment programs to welfare is employment programs help hard working americans whereas welfare is for lazy brown people. JeffersonClay posted:You can do whatever you want with your free time instead of doing what your supervisor tells you?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:46
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:As an American looking across the pond at Scandinavia all of these theoretical critiques of social democracy seem like the ultimate in pointless left wing navel gazing. I honestly don't give a poo poo about your abstract theories. I want health care and education and I can look at our system, recognize it isn't working, and look at the Scandinavian system and recognize that it is. At the end of the day people are responsible for who they vote for and to the extent they didn't like either option that's they're own fault too, for not participating more fully in the Democratic process (i.e. voting in the primaries). However if you're trying to sell some limp-dicked capitalism light where the oligarchs are really nice, honest, don't complain when no one wants it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:51
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:As an American looking across the pond at Scandinavia all of these theoretical critiques of social democracy seem like the ultimate in pointless left wing navel gazing. I honestly don't give a poo poo about your abstract theories. I want health care and education and I can look at our system, recognize it isn't working, and look at the Scandinavian system and recognize that it is. I am from a Nordic country, and right now our rightwing government is busy wrecking the welfare state. Our healthcare and education are on the chopping board and it's unclear if the damage can be repaired within a reasonable timeframe even if our current Social Democratic party gets into government and actually bothers trying to fix things rather than forming another rightwing-lite government, as they have done for decades. This is not theoretical navelgazing, it's the inevitable result of leaving the capitalist class in power and free to use that power to roll back all the good that the left has managed to accomplish, and the consequences are unironically deadly serious.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:53
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:I am from a Nordic country, and right now our rightwing government is busy wrecking the welfare state. Our healthcare and education are on the chopping board and it's unclear if the damage can be repaired within a reasonable timeframe even if our current Social Democratic party gets into government and actually bothers trying to fix things rather than forming another rightwing-lite government, as they have done for decades.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 21:57
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:As an American looking across the pond at Scandinavia all of these theoretical critiques of social democracy seem like the ultimate in pointless left wing navel gazing. I honestly don't give a poo poo about your abstract theories. I want health care and education and I can look at our system, recognize it isn't working, and look at the Scandinavian system and recognize that it is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:00
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:And if you try to sell what the Scandinavians have / had and you can't because they don't want that, and instead they vote in Cheeto Benito because it's the only other option they've got, where does that leave you? this is a good point to make when the choice is actually socialism v. trump and not the literal status quo v. trump
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:18
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:
This may rub abit against the pensive attitudes of the community but fear of the people is extremely important in framing the decisions of the elite. The post world war US understood that the now militarized male population was a demographic not to be trifled with. This was the golden age for the white proletariat. In a sense it seems like the ruling class has little to no expectation that their long run robber baron capitalism is going to ever blow up. The left really shouldn't take active disobedience and revolt off the table. The French Revolution, although bloody and chaotic did eventually lead to an era of improved liberty across the world. Non of that would have been possible without the destructive creation. Changing of the US system is so challenging that I really don't see an incrementalist approach working, like, how is that constitutional convention coming along?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:35
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:It's not really an abstract theory when you live in that system though, and see both the right and "the left" continously chipping away at or tearing great big chunks out of the system. Yes, it's better than what America has right now, but that's only because the project to tear it all down hasn't been completed. Like, the government is already suggesting turning our student allowance system into a student loan system, when two decades ago you had an unlimited student allowance system. Healthcare is likewise being pushed to be more like the American system. The fight never stops but that doesn't mean y'all aren't demonstrably better off than we are in every way. I mean say what you will about right wing dismantling things but America is like king of that right now. To an American ear or at least to this particular American ear this critique sounds like telling someone in a burning house "well, see, we could call the fire department, but did you know even if you put out this fire, your house could still burn down in future? If you aren't just living in an open field you might as well give up." Kilroy posted:And if you try to sell what the Scandinavians have / had and you can't because they don't want that, and instead they vote in Cheeto Benito because it's the only other option they've got, where does that leave you? The people do actually want that though. Right now Bernie Sanders has the highest overall favorability rating of any American politician, period. And it isn't even close. Where it leaves us is that fascist movements succeed when socialist movements fail. The way to drive out fascism politically (as opposed to militarily) is with socialism and socialist policies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:37
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:The fight never stops but that doesn't mean y'all aren't demonstrably better off than we are in every way. I mean say what you will about right wing dismantling things but America is like king of that right now. Hieronymous Alloy posted:To an American ear or at least to this particular American ear this critique sounds like telling someone in a burning house "well, see, we could call the fire department, but did you know even if you put out this fire, your house could still burn down in future? If you aren't just living in an open field you might as well give up."
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:44
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:The fight never stops but that doesn't mean y'all aren't demonstrably better off than we are in every way. I mean say what you will about right wing dismantling things but America is like king of that right now. No, the critique is that if you want to make lasting gains you shouldn't leave people who want to destroy all you've achieved in positions of massive power. This shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp. It's insane to deliberately put yourself in a position where you have to refight the same goddamn battle every thirty years just to keep what you've got, and hence actually existing Social Democracy is an absurd ideology.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:47
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:while letting the pyromaniac continue to live under your roof. Unfortunately this isn't Rimworld and I can't put all the pyromaniacs up against a wall. There are only so many options short of violent revolution (which the regressive and right wing elements would win anyway). Full Communism Now is not realistically on the table, unless your name is General Mattis and you've decided to stage a coup on January 17th. That said I think it's absurd that you believe any ideological system or indeed any system of government at all could last 30 years without being fought for. Hegel isn't real, there's no end-state, all life is struggle of all against all. Even if you did institute Full Communism Now, in thirty years people would be trying to stage fascist coups to take over. Democracy is the best system we have because it's the only one that allows for that process of perpetual change and prevents that process from repeatedly devolving into violence. Social Democracy is the best provably workable, with proven positive utilitarian results system any modern government has managed to implement. Maybe it is absurd but it works. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Dec 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:48
|
|
|
CheeseSpawn posted:How conservative do you consider your family or parents to be? My parents and probably my cousins voted for Trump because he is the default republican like Romney that "supports" pro-life . As devout catholics, they follow the marching orders from the church hierarchy as it is interpreted as God's will/law. Painfully late, but my immediate family are all very much Democrats. I'd say they are pretty Catholic and are very involved at church (my mother is involved in some pro-life volunteering), but have a certain loyalty to the Democratic party as the party of working people and the party of the poor, and this passed down at least to my sister (a full "Hillbot") and brother. I think Catholics are pretty divided on how to reconcile the Church's social teaching (pro-life, pro-preferential option for the poor, pro-migrant) with the American political landscape.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:49
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Unfortunately this isn't Rimworld and I can't put all the pyromaniacs up against a wall. A year and a half ago Donald loving Trump being elected as the goddamn President of the United States wasn't on the table either, so I'd take any and all recieved wisdom about what's politically possible and what's not with a big grain of salt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:52
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:No, the critique is that if you want to make lasting gains you shouldn't leave people who want to destroy all you've achieved in positions of massive power. This shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp. It's insane to deliberately put yourself in a position where you have to refight the same goddamn battle every thirty years just to keep what you've got, and hence actually existing Social Democracy is an absurd ideology. The alternative is a dictatorship of the proletariat and that hasn't produced a lot of enviable outcomes either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:54
|
|
|
DeusExMachinima posted:Well, which one is it forums poster KomradeX? Depended on where you were, if you were a first world worker yes it wasn't as awful. But was still just as brutal to the global working class
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:57
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:The alternative is a dictatorship of the proletariat and that hasn't produced a lot of enviable outcomes either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:57
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:The alternative is a dictatorship of the proletariat and that hasn't produced a lot of enviable outcomes either. Yes, I too agree that there are only two options in the world and it's absolutely impossible to figure out something new and better.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 22:58
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Actual existing communism was tried in states with a long history of autocracy. Maybe it could be done better in ones with a long history of democracy? Why not a system of competition between worker owned firms?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 23:01
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Actual existing communism was tried in states with a long history of autocracy. Maybe it could be done better in ones with a long history of democracy? All democracies are vulnerable to right wing populism. Cerebral Bore posted:Yes, I too agree that there are only two options in the world and it's absolutely impossible to figure out something new and better. You don't know what you're advocating, but you know Americans will love it. Hmm
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 23:25
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:All democracies are vulnerable to right wing populism.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
Kilroy posted:And be dependent on the whim of the electorate for their livelihood. That's not power. Only in the technical sense. Make no mistake though: once people get a taste of unconditionally receiving, say, $1500 a month from the government, they aren't going to want to repeal UBI. It will be just like Prop 13 in California, which requires a simple majority to repeal but has easily survived for over 30 years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2016 23:39
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:You can do whatever you want with your free time instead of doing what your supervisor tells you? The turbonerds that make up the internet and STEM workforces would probably do poo poo on their free time that they find interesting. The vast majority of people however need some kind of structure in their lives giving it purpose. Even in "workers' paradises" like PRC and USSR before the end of the cold war it was illegal to not have a job.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 00:16
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:It's an important difference. Social democracy is a betrayal of the working class, a stalling tactic while capitalism regains its strength. A Buttery Pastry posted:Right wing populism is fueled by people getting hosed by the establishment, and funded by capitalists who fear the left more. The first would not be an issue in a proper democracy, the latter would not exist. Why would capitalists be attempting to dismantle social democracy when (you claim) it serves their interests? What's fueling right wing populism in Europe right now? Fear of muslim immigrants. What motivated Anders Breivik? Fear of muslim immigrants and feminists. How did trump get a bunch of poor white people to vote for reducing the social welfare net? Fomenting fear about muslims and immigrants. Right wing populism is fueled by fear of the other. Peven Stan posted:The turbonerds that make up the internet and STEM workforces would probably do poo poo on their free time that they find interesting. Why would the PRC and USSR need to make employment compulsory if everyone wants a job regardless? I'm not sure I buy into the idea that the college educated don't need a job but the deltas just love their khaki uniforms and the structure of manual labor.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 01:23
|
|
|
cheese posted:Eh, I could see that. I mean, Trump was doing things like calling out the abject brokenness of wealthy interests straight up buying politicians and talking about how the system doesn't serve the common people. I can see 1/5 people who wanted a more liberal president somehow arriving at Trump for that reason. Considering that 23% of 17% is 3.9% of the voters, enough to move Hillary into landslide territory, I wonder if any of them are beginning to reexamine their calculus now that they've seen Trump's cabinet picks. They can't all be accelerationists, can they? P.S. What happened in 2016? Obviously the U.S. electorate was not quite ready to abolish capitalism. It's all so clear now. Hobologist fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Dec 4, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 02:33
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:You can do whatever you want with your free time instead of doing what your supervisor tells you? nothing's actually stopping you from becoming homeless if you want under the current system. there's people who'll give you free food and money and everything, when they feel like it A Buttery Pastry posted:Actual existing communism was tried in states with a long history of autocracy. Maybe it could be done better in ones with a long history of democracy? You're not rooting Lenin out of Communist theory at this point in the game, it's like saying we should try Christianity without any of that nonsense the Catholics came up with A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Dec 4, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:03
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:nothing's actually stopping you from becoming homeless if you want under the current system https://youtu.be/rQ-bp_A61MI In all serious though, UBI would stimulate the economy tremendously, and be trivial to phase in.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:08
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Also actually existing Social Democracy is a garbage ideology because it leaves the economic power in society in the hands of people who want to destroy it. This is a really dumb thing to do. Judging from the way planned economies turned out last century (spoiler: they turned out capitalist of one stripe or another) you seem to laboring under the belief that the people in charge of The Party/economies under communism don't do the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:11
|
|
|
KomradeX posted:Though I don't really know if China today is really any better than China under Mao. Of course it bloody well is. Read a history book. Millions died of starvation due to Mao's mismanagement.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:25
|
|
|
Extensive Vamping posted:https://youtu.be/rQ-bp_A61MI It's not trivial to phase in, because nobody but petit-bourgeois nerds who think Warren Buffett is going to give them an allowance to take up fingerpainting fulltime wants it. It's the libertarianism of the left.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:31
|
|
|
A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's not trivial to phase in, because nobody but petit-bourgeois nerds who think Warren Buffett is going to give them an allowance to take up fingerpainting fulltime wants it. It's the libertarianism of the left. Noted huge communist Milton Friedman, for instance
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:36
|
|
|
lol so that wasn't even an analogy, splendid
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:41
|
|
|
Extensive Vamping posted:Noted huge communist Milton Friedman, for instance Yeah, it's defensible from a right-wing position too. The Free Market gets a whole lot more effective when everyone has money to spend on poo poo! Entrepreneurship will increase massively when employment isn't tied to health insurance, and the price of failure isn't destitution. The only people who can be legitimately against it are the idle and risk-averse rich, or incompetent businesspeople. Everyone else stands to benefit -- if you own and run a good business and make a lot of money, sure you're going to pay a lot of tax to fund the UBI, but because more people have more money to spend at your good business, it ends up offsetting the increased taxes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 03:44
|
|
|
Did Ed McMullin end up taking more votes from Trump or Clinton?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 05:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:07 |
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Why would capitalists be attempting to dismantle social democracy when (you claim) it serves their interests? What's fueling right wing populism in Europe right now? Fear of muslim immigrants. What motivated Anders Breivik? Fear of muslim immigrants and feminists. How did trump get a bunch of poor white people to vote for reducing the social welfare net? Fomenting fear about muslims and immigrants. Right wing populism is fueled by fear of the other. A Wizard of Goatse posted:You're not rooting Lenin out of Communist theory at this point in the game, it's like saying we should try Christianity without any of that nonsense the Catholics came up with
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2016 08:24
|
|