Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

lemonslol posted:

What are the non-corrupt wealthy people doing? My understanding is that: even with access to money, there is still no access to food or medicine.

Well, that depends on how wealthy you are, I suppose.

As Labradoodle and El Hefe pointed out earlier, there are stores that sell imported goods at exuberant prices. The price that Labradoodle quoted for a 5kg bag of rice two months ago - Bs. 70,000 - is more than the worker earning the minimum monthly salary earns in a month (not including the cestaticket). Imagine blowing your entire paycheck for two and a half months on a bag of rice. If you're wealthy enough, these types of prices might not seem like such a huge hit on your wallet, but it's impossible not to imagine that everyone except a handful of the wealthiest people in the country are in massive trouble over food prices. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Venezuelans are either poor or middle class (although I'd argue that term has lost its meaning in Venezuela), and are completely shut out of these types of markets. This is why people are forced to line up for six, eight hours in the hopes of getting a chance to buy subsidized food, or simply not eating regularly.

The medical situation is much worse because as far as I know there are no pharmacies stocked with "imported medicine" that cater to the wealthy. Whether you're rich or poor, the pharmacies are out of even the most basic medicines, ranging from insulin to chemotherapy drugs.

I dont know posted:

Of all the problems that rebuilding will entail, brain drain may be the worst. Building up a trained and educated professional class takes an extraordinary long time. Since they have skills that are in globally in demand and the resources to move, they are often the first to leave. Additionally, once they start building a life in a new country they rarely want to go start over a third time.

This is part of the sadness that all of us who've left carry with us.

I say this every few pages, but every single member of my family in Venezuela in my generation has left the country (with the exception of one who is leaving for good in January). I have six cousins, plus my brother, which makes eight of us. We're all hard working, dedicated people with principles and a strong worth ethic . I will likely never return to Venezuela even if things do get better for the reason that you've pointed out: I've already been an immigrant once, and I've got my life here now. Most of my cousins will tell you the same thing. And we're just one out of tens of thousands of families who can tell you the exact same story.

That's why the country's recovery is a multi-generational project. The millennials who were born in Venezuela have been lost, and the current generation is at risk of being lost as well.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 17:31

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# ? May 15, 2024 20:36

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Baloogan posted:

How do salaries work in runaway inflation?

How are police and military getting paid? It looks like it should be at the Zimbabwe Point where anyone with guns starts to demand payment in foreign currency, but it looks like that hasn't happened yet?

# ? Nov 30, 2016 17:34

I dont know: Aug 9, 2003; That Guy here...

Chuck Boone posted:

This is part of the sadness that all of us who've left carry with us.

I say this every few pages, but every single member of my family in Venezuela in my generation has left the country (with the exception of one who is leaving for good in January). I have six cousins, plus my brother, which makes eight of us. We're all hard working, dedicated people with principles and a strong worth ethic . I will likely never return to Venezuela even if things do get better for the reason that you've pointed out: I've already been an immigrant once, and I've got my life here now. Most of my cousins will tell you the same thing. And we're just one out of tens of thousands of families who can tell you the exact same story.

That's why the country's recovery is a multi-generational project. The millennials who were born in Venezuela have been lost, and the current generation is at risk of being lost as well.

I think looking at India is instructive. A large portion of the educated, skilled, and professional and moving to India are the children and grandchildren of people who moved from India several decades ago. This is a cold comfort, given that using this group to rebuild is at least 30 years in the future.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 17:40

gay for gacha: Dec 22, 2006

I would move back to Venezuela. I left in 2003, so I wonder if it's because I left when I felt things had started to get bad, and I haven't lived the current Venezuela first hand, only visted, and with dollars. I was in Caracas two years ago around this time, and it felt different, but some things still felt like home. Me hace falta mi pa�s.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 17:56

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Saladman posted:

How are police and military getting paid? It looks like it should be at the Zimbabwe Point where anyone with guns starts to demand payment in foreign currency, but it looks like that hasn't happened yet?

They're struggling like everyone else, and there's evidence that some have already resorted to the type of violence that you've pointed out. I've heard stories from different sources of police and National Guard soldiers setting up "checkpoints" on the highway that connects Caracas to the international airport in Maiquetia and extorting people on their way to the airport for money. We already have lots of evidence to suggest that the army higher-ups are actively involved in the drug trade, and it is not at all uncommon to read news reports of rank-and-file soldiers arrested for drug trafficking,, theft (in this case, of goats), as well as other crimes.

Most recently, ten soldiers were arrested for the murders of at least twelve people in Barlovento, Miranda state in the aftermath of a security operation last month. The operation took place in mid-October, but the bodies were not discovered until last week. People's Defender Tarek William Saab confirmed that the victims did not know each other and were not known to police, so heavens knows what type of extortion/kidnapping scheme they became victims to.

I dont know posted:

I think looking at India is instructive. A large portion of the educated, skilled, and professional and moving to India are the children and grandchildren of people who moved from India several decades ago. This is a cold comfort, given that using this group to rebuild is at least 30 years in the future.

This is an interesting point. Thanks for bringing it up.

I don't consider myself to be a nationalistic person at all. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to the idea in general. Still, I really like arepas, and I like getting people to try them. I like to play salsa music when I have friends over, and I like to eat hallacas during Christmas. Insofar as I like all of those things that lots of Venezuelan people like, I really identify with Venezuelan culture. If I ever have children, I'd like to pass on my love for those and other Venezuelan things with the hopes that they will enjoy them as I have. I'm sure I speak for lots of people in my situation when I say that. And, as you said, maybe that could be the seed that grows into a generation of Venezuelans-at-heart who might want to lend a hand one day when the country needs it.

lemonslol posted:

I would move back to Venezuela. I left in 2003, so I wonder if it's because I left when I felt things had started to get bad, and I haven't lived the current Venezuela first hand, only visted, and with dollars. I was in Caracas two years ago around this time, and it felt different, but some things still felt like home. Me hace falta mi pa�s.

What country do you live in now, if you don't mind me asking?

# ? Nov 30, 2016 18:06

gay for gacha: Dec 22, 2006

Chuck Boone posted:

I don't consider myself to be a nationalistic person at all. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to the idea in general. Still, I really like arepas, and I like getting people to try them. I like to play salsa music when I have friends over, and I like to eat hallacas during Christmas. Insofar as I like all of those things that lots of Venezuelan people like, I really identify with Venezuelan culture. If I ever have children, I'd like to pass on my love for those and other Venezuelan things with the hopes that they will enjoy them as I have. I'm sure I speak for lots of people in my situation when I say that. And, as you said, maybe that could be the seed that grows into a generation of Venezuelans-at-heart who might want to lend a hand one day when the country needs it.

What country do you live in now, if you don't mind me asking?

EE.UU
I guess it's the tradition and customs, that I really miss--especially around Christmas time. I'm very nationalistic, I wear Leones uniforms to work on the casual day; I have a a huge collection of Venezuelan artisan work, my dress shoes, belts, wallets are all made in Venezuela, I have a giant framed picture of Simon Diaz, beside my painting of Simon Bolivar, and I'm commissioning a painting of Harina Pan. I have a small collection of paintings from Venezuelan painters, and the list goes on. Needless to say, when I left my plan was to make American dollars and come back home and start a family.
I eat arepas at least five times a week.

gay for gacha fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Nov 30, 2016

# ? Nov 30, 2016 18:33

manchego: Feb 16, 2007; MEANWHILE,

lemonslol posted:

EE.UU
I guess it's the tradition and customs, that I really miss--especially around Christmas time.

gaitas are awful

# ? Nov 30, 2016 18:40

gay for gacha: Dec 22, 2006

manchego posted:

gaitas are awful

You are a sick man.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 18:44

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

Musica llanera is where is at

At least it seems people have finally come to their senses and stopped listening to poo poo like vallenatos and cumbia

# ? Nov 30, 2016 20:18

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

lemonslol posted:

I have a giant framed picture of Simon Diaz, beside my painting of Simon Bolivar, and I'm commissioning a painting of Harina Pan.

God drat, son. I'm not sure if you're serious or not about that Harina Pan painting, but if you are, I definitely want to see it when it's done.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 22:56

gay for gacha: Dec 22, 2006

El Hefe posted:

Musica llanera is where is at

At least it seems people have finally come to their senses and stopped listening to poo poo like vallenatos and cumbia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZHFrHwyoS4

Labradoodle posted:

God drat, son. I'm not sure if you're serious or not about that Harina Pan painting, but if you are, I definitely want to see it when it's done.

Very serious. I have had the idea for a few years, I saw a maseca painting in someones house and it made me want it. I have a pretty big coin collection too. I really love Venezuela

# ? Nov 30, 2016 23:25

Hugoon Chavez: Nov 4, 2011; THUNDERDOME LOSER

drat dude, you're more Venezuelan than pan de jamon.

I'll be honest, it's my country and I love it, but I've always felt out of place in regular Venezuelan society. I went to all the hole-in-the wall concert venues, hung with the punk kids in Plaza Carabobo, and hated reaggeton, gaitas and salsa.

But I'd get an Harina Pan painting in a heartbeat. Also, I was trying to remember the name of the photographer that took the very famous panorama of the whole Caracas, do any of you remember it?

# ? Dec 1, 2016 08:25

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Chuck Boone posted:

As Labradoodle and El Hefe pointed out earlier, there are stores that sell imported goods at exuberant prices.

*exorbitant

Although I guess maybe the shop owners are exuberant about the prices.

# ? Dec 1, 2016 11:33

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

OPEC agreed to production cuts, oil price jumped 8% yesterday (to $50). Too bad Venezuela needs it at well over $100 to fund the country, which will never happen now that Canadian and American shale fracking is viable at progressively cheaper and more massive quantities.

Too bad that the massive influx in money that this news will bring to Venezuela will almost completely be stolen by the top PSUV officials, and not used to alleviate hunger or perform necessary infrastructure repairs. I'm sure the few PSUV officials who give even a single poo poo about Venezuela are praying oil will double in price, but since that won't happen until the dollar inflates to 100% of its current-date value.

Saladman fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Dec 1, 2016

# ? Dec 1, 2016 11:59

fnox: May 19, 2013

The MUD has decided to "stand up" from the round table sessions with the government. Effectively making the so called "dialogue" a complete and absolute waste of time that only made things worse, particularly considering that the Amazonas deputies stepped down, that countless protests were cancelled, that the MUD gave up on any and all possible options to remove Maduro, all as a precondition for this negotiation. The MUD put all of their eggs in one basket and then proceeded to stomp on them. At this point, there are no longer any democratic alternatives to removing Maduro other than waiting for presidential elections in 2019, and the worst part is, I think these idiots are actually planning on waiting until that happens.

Now, considering how absolutely disastrous November was for the Venezuelan economy with no signs of any attempts at rectification being made by the government, and also considering the MUD's now simply obnoxious tendency to self destruct, the stage is set for radicals and revolutionaries to try and seize control next year. Politicians both domestic and foreign have failed the Venezuelan people at every turn, every single individual who had the ability to stop this madness has turned a blind eye. There's gonna be millions of Venezuelan citizens who are gonna be left with no cash, no food, no medicine, no hope, who feel betrayed by both MUD and PSUV, and they're going to support whatever third option comes their way.

# ? Dec 1, 2016 15:28

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

fnox posted:

The MUD has decided to "stand up" from the round table sessions with the government. Effectively making the so called "dialogue" a complete and absolute waste of time that only made things worse, particularly considering that the Amazonas deputies stepped down, that countless protests were cancelled, that the MUD gave up on any and all possible options to remove Maduro, all as a precondition for this negotiation.

Here's a translation of the press release the MUD issued on this yesterday. The MUD is saying that unless the PSUV takes active steps to demonstrate that it intends to keep the promises that it has made (release the political prisoners, appoint new rectors to the CNE), then the opposition will not attend future talks and the dialogue will be dead.

Here's the translation of the press release:

quote:

PRESS RELEASE
If the regime doesn�t [meet its promises], the MUD will not attend the December 6 dialogue

People of Venezuela,

Excellency Monseigneur Claudio Maria Celli, representative from the Holy See before the Dialogue Table

Excellencies, former presidents Jose Luis Zapatero, Leonel Fernandez and Martin Torrijos, representatives from UNASUR before the Dialogue Table:

We are living through terrible times in Venezuela. Over the last few hours, our people have become poorer with each passing minute due to the effects of the destruction of our currency and of the entire national economy, all a consequence of a system of government that has generated misery and of an inefficient and corrupt regime. While this is taking place, the process of searching for solutions through a dialogue has been halted due to the government�s inability to keep its promises over the agreements that were reached during the dialogue meetings that took place on October 30 and November 11-12. There will be no solution to the problem of growing hunger or another other in our country until we have an electoral solution that allows the country to democratically select a new government, and meeting these promises is a fundamental step in order to achieve an electoral solution. In light of this extremely serious situation, the Mesa de la Unidad Democratica wishes to make the following points known to the country and the world:

1. The Mesa de la Unidad Democratica, in keeping with its promises and with the request from the representatives from the Holy See to facilitate the dialogue process, has made clear gestures of its willingness to comply [with the agreements] by suspending its calls for street protests and modifying its parliamentary agenda by postponing the evaluation of President Nicolas Maduro�s political responsibility [the so-called �political trial� that might have seen Maduro removed from office].

2. On November 15 2016, Amazonas deputies Nirma Guarulla, Julio Ygarza and Romel Guzana resigned permanently from the National Assembly leaving their swearing-in on July 28 2016 without effect. That same day, the National Assembly�s Executive Council was notified of their resignation, making it in effect immediate. On November 22 2016, the President of the National Assembly send a message to the Supreme Court confirming that the deputies elected in Amazonas state had resigned.

3. With these actions the Mesa de la Unidad Democratica kept the promises that it agreed to during the dialogue so far, which began on October 30 with the main goal of finding an electoral solution to the crisis.

4. But the government has NOT kept its promises, which is why we ask the national government to meet its promises without major delay. In this sense, it is necessary that clear evidence of progress in the following topics be demonstrated BEFORE the next dialogue meeting scheduled for December 6:

A. Ask that the Constitutional Chamber of the Supreme Court restore the constitutional powers of the National Assembly, leaving without effect the false finding of �contempt� and the rulings that have over several months restricted the legislative power.

B. Name two rectors to the Consejo Nacional Electoral and their respective back-ups as per mutual agreement, so that they may begin to fulfill their roles on December 4 2016 when the terms of Socorro Hernandez and Tania D�Amelio [current rectors] expire.

C. Release political prisoners and create a Truth Commission, the structure of which will be mutually agreed-upon.

D. Open a humanitarian corridor and put into place transparent mechanisms for the import and distribution of food, medicine and medical supplies that are urgently needed by [the healthcare industry] and the affected people in the country.

E. Announce a mutually-agreed date � through a ruling from the Supreme Court � for the elections in Amazonas state in order to restore the state�s representation at the National Assembly.

5. The government should meet the promises that it made before the representative from the Vatican and the other mediators. Until that happens, the Unidad Democratica will re-evaluate its presence at the National Dialogue Table in following with the public announcement that we will make on December 6. Only with the government clearly demonstrates that it is meeting the promises we enumerated above will we clearly re-state our renewed participation in the dialogue, and we will do so stressing our agenda which calls for CONSTITUTIONAL, ELECTORAL, DEMOCRATIC and PEACEFUL methods to overcome the deep political, institutional, social, and economic crisis that VENEZUELA is living through.

6. The MESA DE LA UNIDAD DEMOCRATICA will maintain itself in permanent contact with government representatives, as well as with mediators from the Vatican and UNASUR, in order to verify that the agreements are being met and that in that way the dialogue be allowed to continue.

Any type of dialogue, meeting or negotiation is useless without guarantees that the reached agreements between the parities before representatives from the Vatican and UNASUR are being met. The stubborn negativity of the government when it comes to meeting the agreements are clear evidence that its internal divisions are impeding it from doing so, and that is why it sits down to dialogue so that it may buy itself time and lie to the people, rather than to seriously discuss problems with the goal of fixing them. Along with the immense majority of Venezuelans, the Mesa de la Unidad Democratica wants a dialogue but only if it yields results, results that will allow the country to democratically and constitutionally elect a national unity government that is willing to put a stop to the economic crisis, restore political governance, rebuild social coexistence and hold deep respect for human rights.

Mesa de la Unidad Democratica

Caracas, November 30 2016

If I were a betting man, I'd say that the PSUV is going to release one political prisoner on December 5 at 11:55 PM. The MUD will claim that as a victory and a sign that the dialogue is working, and go to the talks.

Cicero posted:

*exorbitant

Although I guess maybe the shop owners are exuberant about the prices.

Thank you for the correction. And yes, yes they were :eng101:

# ? Dec 1, 2016 16:20

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Chuck Boone posted:

If I were a betting man, I'd say that the PSUV is going to release one political prisoner on December 5 at 11:55 PM. The MUD will claim that as a victory and a sign that the dialogue is working, and go to the talks.

I'd take your bet. Has the government even let the MUD get a single theoretical partial "victory" at any point in the past year? I've been following since the last AN election and it doesn't seem like the PSUV has budged a single inch or thrown even the smallest of bones to the opposition.

# ? Dec 1, 2016 17:25

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

Chuck Boone posted:

If I were a betting man, I'd say that the PSUV is going to release one political prisoner on December 5 at 11:55 PM. The MUD will claim that as a victory and a sign that the dialogue is working, and go to the talks.

And they'll arrest two the next day. As Ricardo Hausmann said, political prisoners are a renewable resource in a dictatorship.

# ? Dec 1, 2016 18:43

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

Everything has doubled in price the last two weeks, this is loving insane.

# ? Dec 1, 2016 18:50

fnox: May 19, 2013

Venezuela is now officially suspended from Mercosur, this may be the first true act of condemnation to the Venezuelan government.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 01:15

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

Today in chronicles from Caracas, I went to have lunch in a place near my apartment that serves homemade meals and found out that points of sale around the entire city are failing. As in, nobody can buy poo poo today unless they have cash on hand. As a result, ATM lines are particularly hellish today.

The kicker is, the owner told me not to worry, that I could pay him via bank transfer for my simple lunch.

# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:23

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

Labradoodle posted:

Today in chronicles from Caracas, I went to have lunch in a place near my apartment that serves homemade meals and found out that points of sale around the entire city are failing. As in, nobody can buy poo poo today unless they have cash on hand. As a result, ATM lines are particularly hellish today.

The kicker is, the owner told me not to worry, that I could pay him via bank transfer for my simple lunch.

It's affecting these banks: Bancaribe, B.O.D, Banco Activo, Banco Agr�cola de Venezuela, Banco Exterior, Banco Caron�, Banco de Venezuela, Banco del Tesoro, Banco Plaza, Banco Fondo Com�n, Novo, Bancrecer, Banco Bicentenario, MiBanco, Banplus, Del Sur, Banco del Pueblo Soberano, Bancamiga, 100 % Banco y Citi.

Apparently it's a problem with the company that handles the transactions called Credicard.

Thankfully my bank isn't affected and I was able to buy dinner just fine!

# ? Dec 3, 2016 05:19

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

Point-of-sale terminals in Venezuela are operated by a company called Creditcard. Maduro gave a speech last night mid-outage in which he called the failure of the terminals "a financial coup d'etat" and said - as usual, without providing a shred of evidence - that "they" had planned the whole thing.

Maduro said:

quote:

This [outage] had been announced. I had information that they were trying to do this. They were trying to leave the country without Creditcard.

Later in the evening, the SEBIN (the political police) showed up at the Creditcard officers in Caracas under direct orders from Maduro. Since I don't think anyone was arrested, I think that the move was just the typical bully/scare tactic we've come to expect from Maduro.

Here's a quick video of a SEBIN car outside of the company's offices last night:

https://twitter.com/hispanopost/status/804830868355293184

Also, the Venezuelan government's official response (via Foreign Affairs Minister Delcy Rodriguez) to its suspension from Mercosur two days ago is "nah-nah-nah-I-can't-hear-you-nah-nah-nah":

quote:

Venezuela does not recognize this hostile act that is based on the law of the jungle by some officials who are destroying MERCOSUR.

(...)

Venezuela will continue to exercise its legitimate presidency and will participate with the right to vote in all the meetings as a member state.

The next Mercosur meeting is going to be awkward. Venezuela is the pathetic ex-boyfriend who shows up to Christmas dinner at his former girlfriend's house with flowers thinking that somehow he'll make it through the door.

# ? Dec 3, 2016 17:45

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

I'm an American who used to frequently post here, but stopped a year ago when the opposition won the legislative branch.

So what changes (if any) occurred?

# ? Dec 3, 2016 19:58

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

punk rebel ecks posted:

I'm an American who used to frequently post here, but stopped a year ago when the opposition won the legislative branch.

So what changes (if any) occurred?

Venezuela is a dictatorship now.

# ? Dec 3, 2016 20:00

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

That, the National Assembly has been totally emasculated by the Chavista-controlled Supreme Court, the MUD has finally proven itself to be useless and the currency has entered hyperinflation territory.

Basically, everything's hosed, only more so.

# ? Dec 3, 2016 20:37

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

They finally opened a KFC here in Maracaibo and I went to try it today and they only had arepas fritas and yuca fritas as sides, gently caress you Maduro.

Also a lady behind me was explaining to her daughter how this was all the fault of the economic war, there's no god.

# ? Dec 3, 2016 20:41

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

El Hefe posted:

Also a lady behind me was explaining to her daughter how this was all the fault of the economic war, there's no god.

"So you see, the Yankee dogs in Washington - working in conjunction with their henchmen in Miami, Madrid and C�cuta who are organised through the website run by that hardware store worker in Alabama I told you about - don't want us to buy French fries at this KFC to demoralise us and overthrow our president. And that, honey, is the economic war."

# ? Dec 3, 2016 20:57

Gervasius: Nov 2, 2010; Grimey Drawer

punk rebel ecks posted:

I'm an American who used to frequently post here, but stopped a year ago when the opposition won the legislative branch.

So what changes (if any) occurred?

It is so hosed up that even Borneo Jimmy stopped posting, probably because even he realized that some things are indefensible.

# ? Dec 3, 2016 21:20

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Gervasius posted:

It is so hosed up that even Borneo Jimmy stopped posting, probably because even he realized that some things are indefensible.

Probably the cheques stopped coming.

# ? Dec 3, 2016 21:21

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

El Hefe posted:

Venezuela is a dictatorship now.

So it finally crossed that line? What exactly has changed authoritarian wise?

# ? Dec 4, 2016 01:02

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

punk rebel ecks posted:

So it finally crossed that line? What exactly has changed authoritarian wise?

There will be books written on this, so it's very difficult to summarize it all. Here are a couple of very superficial highlights:

The Supreme Court (which is 100% controlled by the PSUV) struck down every single law that the National Assembly passed. In July, the Court ruled the National Assembly to be in contempt, preemptively sticking down any future law the legislature passed. For all intents and purposes, Venezuela no longer has a legislative branch.
Maduro has been ruling by decree through economic emergency powers that he granted himself without approval from the legislature.
Maduro presented the national budget for 2017 to the Supreme Court, which approved it after a brief meeting. The national budget must be presented before, debated and approved by the National Assembly for oversight and accountability purposes. No one knows what's in the budget for next year.
The government suspended regional elections for governors and state assemblies that were scheduled to take place this year until maybe next year. The constitution mandates that the elections take place this year.
The government refused to allow a recall referendum to go forward against Maduro. The recall referendum is a constitutional tool that is 100% legitimate and legal.

In short, Maduro rules alone through the legitimizing force that is the Supreme Court. There is no legislative branch anymore, and the Constitution is meaningless.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Dec 4, 2016

# ? Dec 4, 2016 01:20

El Hefe: Oct 31, 2006; You coulda had a V8/
Instead of a tre-eight slug to yo' cranium/
I got six and I'm aimin' 'em/
Will I bust or keep you guessin'

The weirdest thing is that even though the economy is in such dire straits people keep opening businesses and they are even opening new shopping malls, they opened one in Caracas which is apparently the biggest one in the city and here in Mcbo they also opened a small luxury mall a few months ago, these people are gambling really hard with their money.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 04:21

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

El Hefe posted:

The weirdest thing is that even though the economy is in such dire straits people keep opening businesses and they are even opening new shopping malls, they opened one in Caracas which is apparently the biggest one in the city and here in Mcbo they also opened a small luxury mall a few months ago, these people are gambling really hard with their money.

Well, there's always people that sow during times of crises. I think the main two players buying real estate now must be enchufados scared of making big investments outside the country since there must be a lot of eyes on dirty Venezuelan money at this point. They can basically print endless money at this point and they have to invest it in something if they can't get it out. It's ironic knowing that Chavista enchufados are now the new masters of the valley, much like the 'oligarchs' they always criticize. Optimistically, there will be endless inquiries into massive corruption when chavismo passes, but let's be honest, some people will get away with

On the other hand, I remember reading a very good article months ago about how international businesses are investing their bolivares in local infrastructure due to the impossibility of repatriating that money. If they manage to ride out chavismo, they will be in a good position to reap the rewards of a sane economy where a lot of competitors will have been wiped off the map. The investment might not pay off in the short term, but the country's gotta pick its poo poo back up at some point. Big companies and rich people can afford to withstand the crisis, it's us regular folk that get steamrolled.

Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Dec 4, 2016

# ? Dec 4, 2016 04:55

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Chuck Boone posted:

There will be books written on this, so it's very difficult to summarize it all. Here are a couple of very superficial highlights:

The Supreme Court (which is 100% controlled by the PSUV) struck down every single law that the National Assembly passed. In July, the Court ruled the National Assembly to be in contempt, preemptively sticking down any future law the legislature passed. For all intents and purposes, Venezuela no longer has a legislative branch.

Maduro has been ruling by decree through economic emergency powers that he granted himself without approval from the legislature.

Maduro presented the national budget for 2017 to the Supreme Court, which approved it after a brief meeting. The national budget must be presented before, debated and approved by the National Assembly for oversight and accountability purposes. No one knows what's in the budget for next year.

The government suspended regional elections for governors and state assemblies that were scheduled to take place this year until maybe next year. The constitution mandates that the elections take place this year.

The government refused to allow a recall referendum to go forward against Maduro. The recall referendum is a constitutional tool that is 100% legitimate and legal.

In short, Maduro rules alone through the legitimizing force that is the Supreme Court. There is no legislative branch anymore, and the Constitution is meaningless.

Wow. What was the courts reasoning? Is there any hope left?

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 4, 2016

# ? Dec 4, 2016 05:55

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

punk rebel ecks posted:

Wow. What was the courts reasoning? Is there any hope left?

Before the new assembly was sworn in, the chavista-led assembly forced a bunch of Supreme Court justices to resign and packed the court with their cronies illegally. They don't need any reasoning, they're entirely in the government's pocket. Now, they still back all their rulings with a bunch of legalese, but it's a stretch any way you paint it. I mean, as Chuck said, at one point they just got bored of the whole dynamic of striking down every single ruling the new assembly passed, so they just declared them in contempt and ruled everything they did or would do illegal due to 'reasons'. Chavismo governs by force now and the MUD has dropped the ball at every step of the way to fight the new status quo.

At this point, I think the MUD is pretty much resigned to chavismo until the next presidential elections in 2016. They haven't said so, but they aided the government in killing any hope of a referendum by agreeing to sit down and negotiate with them, after squandering the only card in their hand: massive protests. Right now the only options are waiting until 2019 or hoping for something else to topple Maduro. The problem is, Maduro is just a figurehead, take him out and you still have a massive chavista apparatus with no incentive to make any changes.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 06:36

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Labradoodle posted:

Before the new assembly was sworn in, the chavista-led assembly forced a bunch of Supreme Court justices to resign and packed the court with their cronies illegally. They don't need any reasoning, they're entirely in the government's pocket. Now, they still back all their rulings with a bunch of legalese, but it's a stretch any way you paint it. I mean, as Chuck said, at one point they just got bored of the whole dynamic of striking down every single ruling the new assembly passed, so they just declared them in contempt and ruled everything they did or would do illegal due to 'reasons'. Chavismo governs by force now and the MUD has dropped the ball at every step of the way to fight the new status quo.

At this point, I think the MUD is pretty much resigned to chavismo until the next presidential elections in 2016. They haven't said so, but they aided the government in killing any hope of a referendum by agreeing to sit down and negotiate with them, after squandering the only card in their hand: massive protests. Right now the only options are waiting until 2019 or hoping for something else to topple Maduro. The problem is, Maduro is just a figurehead, take him out and you still have a massive chavista apparatus with no incentive to make any changes.

I see. You seem critical, and always have, about MUD. It's as if you blame them for things getting out of control just as the PSUV? I wonder why.

Also, if I said that I was a socialist? Would you hate me because of what the PSUV has done to your country? Or see that as a separate thing?

# ? Dec 4, 2016 06:42

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

punk rebel ecks posted:

I see. You seem critical, and always have, about MUD. It's as if you blame them for things getting out of control just as the PSUV? I wonder why.

Also, if I said that I was a socialist? Would you hate me because of what the PSUV has done to your country? Or see that as a separate thing?

I was very hopeful about the MUD, beginning with the big run-up against Chavez during his last election, and then against Maduro. Once again when they managed to take the assembly with an overwhelming majority against all odds. My main issue with them is that they've always been too meek when it comes to calling out the government and confronting it. We're long past the point where avoiding direct confrontation could prevent violence and save lives. They're obsessed with waiting for the right moment, but the government is not going to give them any openings.

Just to give you an idea of the dire straits we're in, we experienced an inflation of over 50% during last month alone. Over 80% of the country lives in poverty, far more than when Chavez was elected, and we have people dying due to a lack of medicine every day. With the government actively blocking and seizing humanitarian aid when it does come. It's nuts that the MUD still thinks they need to sit down and hash things out.

As for the socialist thing, definitely not. I'm very left-leaning myself, but I don't see the crisis as a consequence of a socialist government. Chavez was a caudillo that tore down the institutions of this country and surrounded himself with corrupt cronies. They aren't a government, they're criminals wearing suits that happen to operate out of Miraflores.

Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Dec 4, 2016

# ? Dec 4, 2016 07:26

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Labradoodle posted:

I was very hopeful about the MUD, beginning with the big run-up against Chavez during his last election, and then against Maduro. Once again when they managed to take the assembly with an overwhelming majority against all odds. My main issue with them is that they've always been too meek when it comes to calling out the government and confronting it. We're long past the point where avoiding direct confrontation could prevent violence and save lives. They're obsessed with waiting for the right moment, but the government is not going to give them any openings.

Just to give you an idea of the dire straits we're in, we experienced an inflation of over 50% during last month alone. Over 80% of the country lives in poverty, far more than when Chavez was elected, and we have people dying due to a lack of medicine every day. With the government actively blocking and seizing humanitarian aid when it does come. It's nuts that the MUD still thinks they need to sit down and hash things out.

As for the socialist thing, definitely not. I'm very left-leaning myself, but I don't see the crisis as a consequence of a socialist government. Chavez was a caudillo that tore down the institutions of this country and surrounded himself with corrupt cronies. They aren't a government, they're criminals wearing suits that happen to operate out of Miraflores.

I see thank you.

I also recall, maybe I'm remembering wrong, that years ago you called out MUD for having terrible strategy in appealing voters and ground game so to speak?

# ? Dec 4, 2016 07:43

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# ? May 15, 2024 20:36

M. Discordia: Apr 30, 2003; by Smythe

punk rebel ecks posted:

So what changes (if any) occurred?

Everyone who has ever lived in Venezuela or spoken to someone who has found it impossible to continue pretending that Venezuela is anything other than a failed state presided over by an increasingly psychotic leftist dictator.

Not coincidentally, American left-wing media outlets doubled down on Venezuela as a socialist utopia.

# ? Dec 4, 2016 18:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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