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Thalantos posted:Bashing someone in the sense that you insult her. Saying "Caitlin Jenner is an out of touch millionaire." Isn't a hate crime. Since this opinion isn't being respected when said by SA posters, I found a respected actor to explain it succinctly in twitter format: https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelLJackson/status/796876742606528512
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Dec 4, 2016 17:32
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Supporting ethnic cleansing is of course morally acceptable as an opinion, and racism against whites is real. I'm a leftie.
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Dec 4, 2016 17:33
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Brainiac Five posted:"Bashing" in the context of LGBT people refers to assaults and murders committed as hate crimes. Gotcha. Different usage of bashing. Well....to be honest, I think humans are little more than smarter primates, and we're extremely tribal and xenophobic. We can overcome this to some extent due to having a higher consciousness and not being mastered by our base urges. But you have to work at it. Otherwise, we as humans dislike and fear and very easily hate "the Other", and it requires a conscious, continual effort on the part of a society to avoid oppressing and eventually wiping out and killing these outsiders. LGBT folks are outsiders in this sense, since we are a minority. Especially those who can't/don't blend into the larger society. So, that is what makes bigotry against LGBT folk inevitable.
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Dec 4, 2016 17:42
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Thalantos posted:Gotcha. Different usage of bashing. So, in your view, humans are inherently evil. Well, I disagree. But hell, you did come up with a response that precludes the extermination of cishet people as a solution, because in your view LGBT would just turn to murdering and hating each other immediately. This sounds more like an intellectualized clinical depression than a meaningful philosophy, to be frank.
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Dec 4, 2016 17:45
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Brainiac Five posted:So, in your view, humans are inherently evil. Well, I disagree. But hell, you did come up with a response that precludes the extermination of cishet people as a solution, because in your view LGBT would just turn to murdering and hating each other immediately. This sounds more like an intellectualized clinical depression than a meaningful philosophy, to be frank. Nah, people are not good or evil, they just are. Their actions can be good or evil, but those are both too subjective, anyway. And yes, lgbt people would immediately fall into infighting. It happens in the community now and it has for years! I do have chronic depression, although I'm not sure why that applies here? I don't really have a philosophy...?
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Dec 4, 2016 17:54
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I feel like that last post explains much about effectronica's attitude towards tbe incredibly minor criticisms within this thread; he views the LGBQT community as beyond infighting or societal unease, and as such it is impossible for a queer rich person to not have the aims of the community as a whole in mind, or for queer human beings to display a tribal mentality, both in politics and in society. As such, any view that may conflict with this percieved hivemind of virtue must not only be wrong, but be enemies and fake-queers. Life just isn't that simple. Even at the movements youngest point you saw conflicts between feminine hippy-inspired queers and leather daddies. It's just human nature to find a smaller group to achieve societal progress, superiority, and comfort. If cishet people no longer existed we absolutely would see fracturing among the alliance. If not on fiscal class then of pettier reasons. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 17:58
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Brainiac Five posted:You just said they were sometimes acceptable. I think you two disagree on what the word "bashing" means. e:f;b. So many arguments could be avoided if we just asked people to be clear about what they're loving talking about.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:04
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Thalantos posted:Nah, people are not good or evil, they just are. Their actions can be good or evil, but those are both too subjective, anyway. You just outlined that people are incapable of anything but immoral behavior, which makes them inherently immoral, which term is a weaker way of saying "evil". You're asserting that in a world of only LGBT people, we would still exhibit bigotry against LGBT people no matter what. Your post sounds less like you've thought about reality and more like you've started from the premise that change for the better is impossible.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:03
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Brainiac Five posted:You just outlined that people are incapable of anything but immoral behavior, which makes them inherently immoral, which term is a weaker way of saying "evil". I didn't read it like that, instead I believe she does not consider it possible to utterly vanquish bigotry, because time is infinite and every moment an opportunity to exploit perceived differences between folk. That the struggle is eternal and a final solution to the dreaded Poor White Man will not change that. Often the acceptance of various euro ethnicities into a homogenous White category has been pointed to as an example that eternal tolerance can be achieved, but this ignores the real fact that this happened as a result of said groups losing those identities over generations as traditions ended or were adopted by all american groups. One need only visit Europe once to realize this. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 18:06
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Neurolimal posted:Since this opinion isn't being respected when said by SA posters, I found a respected actor to explain it succinctly in twitter format: Dude went to jail for militant black activism, he's not really comparable in this situation.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:14
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Funny memesman Samuel L Jackson held several members of his college board hostage along with other black students in a bid to improve minority rights on the campus in the wake of MLK Jr's assassination.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:16
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Brainiac Five posted:You just outlined that people are incapable of anything but immoral behavior, which makes them inherently immoral, which term is a weaker way of saying "evil". I'm not sure how what I said comes across as believing that humans are incapable of good? Of course they are. Yes. It would fracture along gender lines, along class lines, along racial lines, the sexual orientation folk versus the gender identify folk, and on and on and on. These splits already exist, if we didn't have a common unifying theme of being lgbt. Change for the better is possible, it just does not happen automatically and must be worked for.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:16
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Sharkopath posted:Dude went to jail for militant black activism, he's not really comparable in this situation. Even if he gets a pass, its still an accurate statement by someone with the credentials to withstand accusations of being an outsider or ill-intentioned towards social leftism. "I was poor and was harmed, this time I am not poor, and will endure". A militant black activist with decades of experience laid out the division in easily comprehendable words.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:17
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Neurolimal posted:I didn't read it like that, instead I believe he does not consider it possible to utterly vanquish bigotry, because time is infinite and every moment an opportunity to exploit perceived differences between folk. That the struggle is eternal and a final solution to the dreaded Poor White Man will not change that. I'm a "she".  but yeah, basically?
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Dec 4, 2016 18:18
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Thalantos posted:I'm a "she". Apologies, ma'am
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Dec 4, 2016 18:19
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Neurolimal posted:Apologies, ma'am It's alright
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Dec 4, 2016 18:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Someone linked a tweet in one of the election threads from some Democrat (I'm pretty sure at least) who did explicitly state that he wanted to punish white (working class) people because they were never going to come around to his way of thinking anyway, or something to that effect. Not that this is representative of the party as a whole, but it's a pretty terrible message for even a small part of the party to send. A tweet. That hardly means anything. And I presume its been deleted now for being completely terrible. Who was this guy even? Did he have anything approaching prominent standing in the Party? Because it sounds like this is the sort of thing that gets blown up and trotted out by people who sincerely think that the Democrats hate white people to justify voting for a white Nationalist. Which again calls into question whether or not Identity politics has been somehow weakened by this election when it seems that identity politics for white people is even more ascendant than usual. Following on from that, I can imagine its extremely frustrating for that guy or other people, especially minorities, to be now be told that the problem that the Democratic party had was that it put too much emphasis on identity politics (and it put barely any emphasis on identity politics), since it seems that a perception that their issues are getting any kind of national airtime results in the one of the worst examples of racist, sexist regression getting elected into the highest office of the land by scared white people. In that light I can imagine a lot of people are prepared to say 'gently caress that and gently caress you' when their issues have been loudly rebuffed by a white majority in the crudest way in decades.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:42
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khwarezm posted:A tweet. And I presume its been deleted now for being completely terrible. Who was this guy even? Did he have anything approaching prominent standing in the Party? Because it sounds like this is the sort of thing that gets blown up and trotted out by people who sincerely think that the Democrats hate white people to justify voting for a white Nationalist. Which again calls into question whether or not Identity politics has been somehow weakened by this election when it seems that identity politics for white people is even more ascendant than usual. The frustration is understandable. So long as they are willing to calm down and further examine the causes further. A beloved friend felt the same way at first, but came around to the idea that the problem was not the airtime of minority causes, but the abandonment of allies for some perceived reason (either to ensure their issues take priority, or a prideful attempt to assert their individual power). The fault is not on we minorities or the poor workers, but the democrats who divided us due to their lack of faith in the issues we all support.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:48
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White liberals wanted to create a system of racism without racists: Everything on the surface would be handled politely and without a fuss with the real discrimination happening behind closed doors. See the leaked podesta email about running an "asian, preferrably a woman" as a "top tier minority" candidate. White conservatives want to go back to America being an explicit ethnostate and find that token efforts by liberals to dismantle white supremacy offensive. This is a group that sees 7% of white women marrying racial minorities every year and considers that to be tantamount to genocide.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:51
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Thalantos posted:They're never acceptable. Yeah, I guess we shouldn't even try to combat racism because ending it completely is hard, unlike capitalism which I'm sure is very easy. And after all, ending capitalism will probably make some of the effects of racism slightly less bad, which should totally be enough for minorities, right?
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Dec 4, 2016 18:52
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, I guess we shouldn't even try to combat racism because ending it completely is hard, unlike capitalism which I'm sure is very easy. And after all, ending capitalism will probably make some of the effects of racism slightly less bad, which should totally be enough for minorities, right? Neither are bad goals, neither are easy, its possible neither will be achieved, but both are worthy of our focus, and the attraction of like-minded citizens to both makes us strong. The division is only necessary if we wish to tolerate millionaires who are unwilling to spare a fraction of their wealth for the good of all.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:55
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If you think bigotry is eternal, you've already given up. I hope you get back on your feet, but right now you're just trying to drag others down into the muck of despair.
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Dec 4, 2016 18:55
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Brainiac Five posted:If you think bigotry is eternal, you've already given up. I hope you get back on your feet, but right now you're just trying to drag others down into the muck of despair. We need air to live, we will never conquer this, but it is wrong to choose to suffocate. Instead we as young organisms develop and fight to take as much air as we need, and in our development breathing becomes second nature to the point we do not suffer for it. Bigotry will persist for so long as we can perceive dofferences between each other. We cannot forcibly remove the capability for discrimination from every individual. But we can fight back and suppress it to the point that noone should fear any mob or individuals ire without the support and aid from a swathe of individuals across the demographics. And for the majority of us, that's a pretty good result.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:00
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Brainiac Five posted:If you think bigotry is eternal, you've already given up. I hope you get back on your feet, but right now you're just trying to drag others down into the muck of despair.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:01
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Neurolimal posted:We need air to live, we will never conquer this, but it is wrong to choose to suffocate. Instead we as young organisms develop and fight to breathe, and in our development breathing becomes second nature to the point we do not suffer for it. Oh yeah dude, people are murked for their taste in movies all the time. It's about "dofferences" and not structures of power and ideologies.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:02
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the trump tutelage posted:Do you have anything to offer besides platitudes? All of human history disagrees with you. Thank you for admitting your desire to commit hate crimes.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:03
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Brainiac Five posted:Oh yeah dude, people are murked for their taste in movies all the time. It's about "dofferences" and not structures of power and ideologies. If you have to focus on phone typos, then you have already lost faith in your position. There is no shame in admitting a mistake. There is shame in entering hysterics to double-down on your error. Comedy answer: looks like someone needs to check out Cinema Discusso 
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Dec 4, 2016 19:04
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Neurolimal posted:If you have to focus on phone typos, then you have already lost faith in your position. Thank you for refusing to answer the meat of the post.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:06
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Brainiac Five posted:If you think bigotry is eternal, you've already given up. I hope you get back on your feet, but right now you're just trying to drag others down into the muck of despair. The unlikeliihood of winning shouldn't really stop you fighting for something ethical.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:07
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OwlFancier posted:The unlikeliihood of winning shouldn't really stop you fighting for something ethical. No, I don't think railing against our need to eat by destroying other living things is a good thing to do.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:08
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Brainiac Five posted:Thank you for refusing to answer the meat of the post. That's because the meat was rancid. It focused on the most minor and invisible possible difference to fight the argument that people will find exploitable differences to discriminate with.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:09
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Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, I guess we shouldn't even try to combat racism because ending it completely is hard, unlike capitalism which I'm sure is very easy. And after all, ending capitalism will probably make some of the effects of racism slightly less bad, which should totally be enough for minorities, right? Umm, no. I think that maybe, concentrating on economic issues as a way to lift up all the disadvantaged, might be a good idea? I'm not saying ignore minority issues, but.... All politics is personal, right? The Obama administration and Hillary Clinton both did things that have made my life as an lgbt person easier. But when a lot of that I am unable to access due to my economic situation, then how has my life actually improved? As SOS, Clinton made the passport much more transgender friendly. But, I don't have the money to get a passport, not when I have to worry about getting enough money to eat, so my life hasn't actually improved.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:09
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Neurolimal posted:That's because the meat was rancid. It focused on the most minor and invisible possible difference to fight the argument that people will find exploitable differences to discriminate with. Your argument is that dofferences alone, not structures or ideologies, explain racism and sexism. That is, race isn't socially invented, it was laid down by God or something.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:12
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Brainiac Five posted:Your argument is that dofferences alone, not structures or ideologies, explain racism and sexism. That is, race isn't socially invented, it was laid down by God or something. I put emphasis on the word exploit. Differences are used to fracture a community to meet the whims of elite sociopaths. This would not cease with the removal of poor white men. Differences are not inherently politically divisive. It's the people that demonize them that have the divisive ideologies. They will find new differences as old ones disappear, and these people will exist for as long as mental illness exists and can go untreated. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 19:28
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Neurolimal posted:I put emphasis on the word exploit. Differences are used to fracture a community to meet the whims of elite sociopaths. This would not cease with the removal of poor white men. Nobody is calling for white genocide, Prince Doffrey. Your inability to understand this, your hatred of the disabled, and your problems understanding the internal conflicts in your statements make it very clear that the main dofference here is between the ensouled and the soulless like you and trump tutelage, etc.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:32
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Brainiac Five posted:Nobody is calling for white genocide, Prince Doffrey. Your inability to understand this, your hatred of the disabled, and your problems understanding the internal conflicts in your statements make it very clear that the main dofference here is between the ensouled and the soulless like you and trump tutelage, etc. I don't hate the mentally ill. I am mentally ill. That doesn't mean we can just ignore the actions of the powerful who hold untreated sicknesses that make them value an extra unused million dollars over helping other human beings. There is no conflict in my statement; those who need scapegoats and distractions find groups with unique qualities to demonize and blame. People do not spring out of the aether hating minorities. You imply that discrimination is a plague that can be stamped out, as if it were a living entity and not a concept/tool.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:37
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I am calling for white genocide, though.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:41
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Neurolimal posted:The frustration is understandable. So long as they are willing to calm down and further examine the causes further.  quote:A beloved friend felt the same way at first, but came around to the idea that the problem was not the airtime of minority causes, but the abandonment of allies for some perceived reason (either to ensure their issues take priority, or a prideful attempt to assert their individual power). You see, a problem I have here is that increasingly the onus seems to be on minority groups to make room for the white majority who seem to be allowed to abandon minority groups when it suits them, but will go for a racist con-man when they feel abandoned. The question I asked at the very start of this thread, why are identity politics so bad? has not been sufficiently answered, I can trawl through Reddit, Facebook, 4chan and here in Somethingawful and identity politics is horrible boogeyman that lost Liberals the election but nobody seems to have been able to enunciate what Liberal Idpol actually does to victimize White people in the real world, and nobody talks about how Trump's election was its own, and sadly predictable, form of identity politics for white people. The worst thing the Democrats did, and I really do believe this, was abandon economic leftism, but Identity Politics does not intrinsically exclude that and in fact is critical in trying to build a coherent alliance among disparate groups on the left and show that needs will be met.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:43
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Neurolimal posted:I don't hate the mentally ill. I am mentally ill. That doesn't mean we can just ignore the actions of the powerful who hold untreated sicknesses that make them value an extra unused million dollars over helping other human beings. Welp, discrimination is a tool, best keep revoking the civil and human rights of everybody who's not a white man! Also, yeah bigotry isn't in the DSM because bigots are culpable for their actions. Last I checked, gaybashers and hate crimes don't get off for being mentally ill, rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:45
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khwarezm posted:A tweet. That hardly means anything. And I presume its been deleted now for being completely terrible. Who was this guy even? Did he have anything approaching prominent standing in the Party? Because it sounds like this is the sort of thing that gets blown up and trotted out by people who sincerely think that the Democrats hate white people to justify voting for a white Nationalist. Which again calls into question whether or not Identity politics has been somehow weakened by this election when it seems that identity politics for white people is even more ascendant than usual. khwarezm posted:Following on from that, I can imagine its extremely frustrating for that guy or other people, especially minorities, to be now be told that the problem that the Democratic party had was that it put too much emphasis on identity politics (and it put barely any emphasis on identity politics), since it seems that a perception that their issues are getting any kind of national airtime results in the one of the worst examples of racist, sexist regression getting elected into the highest office of the land by scared white people. In that light I can imagine a lot of people are prepared to say 'gently caress that and gently caress you' when their issues have been loudly rebuffed by a white majority in the crudest way in decades.
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Dec 4, 2016 19:51
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