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punk rebel ecks posted:I see thank you. I honestly don't recall, but I might have said that. To be fair, the MUD's saving grace are it's election organization chops. They're good when it comes to that. It's the rest of their duties where they drop the ball. Then again, when you have a president with more or less 20% approval rate and everyone is having a bad time, you pretty much get handed elections on a platter if you're the opposition. That's why the government is illegally postponing the recall referendum and gubernatorial elections. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 20:36
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The central bank just made it official, new bills starting the 15th this month. 500, 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000 and 20000 denomination bills and 10, 50 and 100 coins. http://www.bcv.org.ve/Upload/Comunicados/aviso041216.pdf A big mac is currently about 5000Bs I think so by the time the new bills are out you'll be able to buy one big mac with the 20000Bs bill I bet lol
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Dec 4, 2016 20:37
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El Hefe posted:The central bank just made it official, new bills starting the 15th this month. I prefer Zimbabwe's "Let's truncate all the extra zeroes as hyperinflation increases!" method.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:38
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Horseshoe theory posted:I prefer Zimbabwe's "Let's truncate all the extra zeroes as hyperinflation increases!" method. Chavez already did that.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:41
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M. Discordia posted:. I don't remember this happening.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:47
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What do the new bills look like? I'm imagining the old 100 BsF bills with "20K" scrawled on them in red crayon.
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Dec 4, 2016 22:14
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Vlex posted:What do the new bills look like? I'm imagining the old 100 BsF bills with "20K" scrawled on them in red crayon.  some people are saying one of the bills might have Chavez's mug on it and I wouldn't rule it out
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Dec 4, 2016 22:22
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My aunt who lives in a city near Caracas called us yesterday to catch up. She told us about how she'd gone grocery shopping yesterday morning, and how in one of the supermarket aisles she ran into an elderly woman and her son. My aunt told us that the woman picked up something from the shelf and was going to put it in her shopping cart, but the son stopped her and told her that they didn't have enough money to buy that. My aunt saw about three or four things in their shopping cart. She told us that as the woman put the item back on the shelf, she hid her face in her other hand and started sobbing. After a moment, the woman looked up and asked my aunt, "Ma'am, how are you managing to cook anything? What do you for food? I water everything down but it's not enough". This poor lady had a full breakdown in the middle of a supermarket aisle and asked a stranger for tips on how to cook without food. My aunt lives alone and buys things in singles. She said that she spent Bs. 40,000 on a couple of things for herself yesterday (remember that the monthly minimum salary is around Bs. 27,000), and told us that she had no idea how two people living together - nevermind a family of four - can survive for long like this. EDIT: On the currency talk - the highest-denomination bill in circulation today (Bs. 100) is worth two cents at the current black market exchange rate. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 23:16
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Holy poo poo, I knew inflation was a problem, but looking at a chart of the last few months is unbelievable. It still astonishes me that the country isn't in open revolt.
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Dec 5, 2016 00:55
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El Hefe posted:The central bank just made it official, new bills starting the 15th this month. so they have hit Zimbabwe levels of money inflation and poverty now?
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Dec 5, 2016 01:57
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Sinteres posted:Holy poo poo, I knew inflation was a problem, but looking at a chart of the last few months is unbelievable. It still astonishes me that the country isn't in open revolt. It's not quite to that point yet, but I'd say it's on the way there.
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Dec 5, 2016 02:00
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How much of your routine trading/purchasing now takes place in US$ ?
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Dec 5, 2016 02:04
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:It's not quite to that point yet, but I'd say it's on the way there. IMF predicted an inflation rate of 1600% for 2017 a few months ago, I'd say that was a conservative prediction and since it was made before the government blocked the referendum an outdated one as well. Inflation is probably going to hit 2500% next year easily, considering it already 1000% this year.
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Dec 5, 2016 02:09
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Dapper_Swindler posted:so they have hit Zimbabwe levels of money inflation and poverty now? Eh when Zimbabwe was having money issues there were still plenty of people earning and trading in foreign currency, especially the South African one and the US dollar, and shortages weren't nearly so bad. People simply just couldn't use the national money reliably. This is not to say things were going great there, but on the whole they were going a lot less poorly than they are in Venezuela now. Like you might not be able to afford much in the shops unless you rushed out immediately after being paid, but the stores would be reasonably stocked. And this was in the grip of the millions of percent inflation per year in the government currency. fishmech fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 02:42
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El Hefe posted:
I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case. Hell, they'll probably put him on the 20000 bill. beer_war fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 06:39
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Chuck Boone posted:My aunt lives alone and buys things in singles. She said that she spent Bs. 40,000 on a couple of things for herself yesterday (remember that the monthly minimum salary is around Bs. 27,000), and told us that she had no idea how two people living together - nevermind a family of four - can survive for long like this. Are people like just starving to death?
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Dec 5, 2016 07:19
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I've said it before but I love that the Venezuelan currency is the "Bs"
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Dec 5, 2016 07:43
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Actually, it's the "strong Bs". Show some respect!
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Dec 5, 2016 07:47
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M. Discordia posted:Not coincidentally, American left-wing media outlets doubled down on Venezuela as a socialist utopia. When did this happen? I haven't seen anything of the sort.
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Dec 5, 2016 07:53
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Discordia is more than a little a biased, though I think rags like Jacobin are still on the Chavista train.
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Dec 5, 2016 08:00
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punk rebel ecks posted:Also, if I said that I was a socialist? Would you hate me because of what the PSUV has done to your country? Or see that as a separate thing? You will find a LOT of Venezuelans that will judge you due to our country's situation, but those, much like any right-wing activist that uses Venezuela as an example, are either idiots or choosing to remain blind. Calling what we have a socialism is a complete lie. There is no political system in place and much less any kind of ideology. What we have is a badly disguised dictatorship based around stealing as much as possible.
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Dec 5, 2016 08:30
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Calling what we have a socialism is a complete lie. There is no political system in place and much less any kind of ideology. What we have is a badly disguised dictatorship based around stealing as much as possible. While what you have today and in the last couple years is not socialism, the strong majority of Chavez's period in power was certainly socialism. Trying to call chavismo not a socialist policy (in theory and in action) is historical revisionism. Just because there was a lot of corruption doesn't make it "not really socialism" unless you're whatever the tankie equivalent of chavismo is. Also Borneo Jimmy hasn't posted in a while because IIRC he was probated for 10,000 hours for constantly getting probated in this thread for spounting bullshit. I haven't seen any leftwing newspapers support Venezuela in the last year since the AN elections, except for complete propaganda outlets like the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign. VVVV: You forgot The Guardian as now-anti-PSUV. Man, some of those other ones are such shitbags though Some shitbag on Counterpunch posted:In 2005 Venezuela offered tons of food, billions of dollars in oil, water, medical experts, medical aid and equipment to the victims of Hurricane Katrina. How is the U.S. returning the favor to the Venezuelan people as medical shortages are costing lives, there is no food to buy in the grocery stores and the government is collapsing? The biggest privately owned food supplier, Empresas Polar SA, is urging for foreign aid. These calls are being ignored even as the managers of Empresas Polar SA are fellow capitalists and allies of the United States. When civil society collapsed in New Orleans and chaos reached Louisiana, Venezuela was trying to help the situation on the gulf by offering aid for the victims. This aid was very much needed as the wealth of the U.S. was dedicated to destroying Iraq and murdering Iraqi citizens. Now that Venezuela needs help, they are offered nothing by the United States. What the gently caress is wrong with someone like that? It's not like it's propaganda effect that the US/other countries are pretending to want to give aid, but actually not doing anything in order to destabilize Venezuela. The PSUV themselves have come out and said "we don't need and won't accept any international medical or food aid." Saladman fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 10:54
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Bip Roberts posted:When did this happen? I haven't seen anything of the sort. Current scoreboard: Still pro-PSUV: Jacobin Counterpunch Z The Chapo Trap House/Brocialist/Dirtbag Left/Weird Twitter crowd Now anti-PSUV: HuffPo Mother Jones Just pretending Venezuela doesn't exist and, rather than acknowledging its status as a failed socialist state, haven't run an article concerning it for a year or more: Salon Harpers The Intercept M. Discordia fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 13:29
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Saladman posted:except for complete propaganda outlets like the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign. For some reason I was/am on their mailing list. They are the same small group of Trotskyite loons who were cronies of the former mayor of London Ken 'Hitler was a Zionist' Livingstone. These people will support Maduro even when he starts to eat babies on live TV.
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Dec 5, 2016 13:45
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The reason that Maduro still retains some support is largely down to the lack of an alternative good guy. The pre-Chavismo crowd were just as corrupt and the current opposition seem like they are playing along with the PSUV to keep things as is so that when they get in power they get their turn at running a kleptocracy. Without anyone decent to rally around its hard to inspire strong feelings. I reckon that's the primary reason there has not been a popular uprising against the PSUV - people are not inspired to fight for an opposition that is just as self interested as the PSUV.
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Dec 5, 2016 14:19
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punk rebel ecks posted:Are people like just starving to death? Thankfully, we're not at the point of mass starvation yet. What we are seeing is a widespread crisis of malnutrition. A survey from the Venebarometro firm conducted over the summer found that 61% of Venezuelans eat one or two meals a day, while only 38% said that they eat three meals a day. The quality of the meals is an issue as well, with healthy foods such as fresh vegetables, lean protein and dairy being extremely scare. In other words, people are not only eating less today than they were at any other point under chavismo, but they are eating less nutritious foods. I've read a number of public statements from doctors and pediatric associations over the past year or so pointing out that the effects of the malnutrition will show themselves in particularly ugly ways in years to come, since children and infants today are affected by malnutrition the most. All of this has resulted in the increasingly common phenomenon that is people looking for and eating garbage on the streets. Labradoodle, El Hefe and the other Venegoons still in the country can probably talk about a few times when they've seen this. Back in September, Maduro joked about the nutritional plight in Venezuela during a televised speech. During the speech, he spotted a thin-looking man in the audience and asked him why he was so skinny, to which the man replied, "because of the 'Maduro Diet'", in reference to the complete collapse of the economic and the ensuring food shortages. Maduro turned the comment into a joke, saying: quote:The Maduro Diet makes you hard [as in, tough] without needing any Viagra! Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 16:49
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Flayer posted:The reason that Maduro still retains some support is largely down to the lack of an alternative good guy. The pre-Chavismo crowd were just as corrupt and the current opposition seem like they are playing along with the PSUV to keep things as is so that when they get in power they get their turn at running a kleptocracy. Without anyone decent to rally around its hard to inspire strong feelings. I reckon that's the primary reason there has not been a popular uprising against the PSUV - people are not inspired to fight for an opposition that is just as self interested as the PSUV. But at least the MUD guys aren't criminally incompetent, and while they are corrupt they are also not the "100%" kind of corrupt, Carlos Andres Perez got impeached over some petty bullshit for fucks sake while the Chavistas have billions of dollars stashed in bank accounts in Andorra and nothing happens to them.
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Dec 5, 2016 17:52
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Kinda sad seeing the right wing Borneo Jimmy here but not Borneo Jimmy i usually got a lot of entertainment from watching them interact Or is that not him? anyone remember those days? I forget but i guess now that times are more sober we can't have that sorta thread chaos Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 18:25
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The only thing BJ (heh) posts is quotes from Venezuelanalysis.com while refusing to reply to any post who disproves his bullshit, he might as well be a bot.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:34
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M. Discordia posted:Current scoreboard: Please don't bring your crazy person nonsense into this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 5, 2016 18:35
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Punkin Spunkin posted:Kinda sad seeing the right wing Borneo Jimmy here but not Borneo Jimmy i usually got a lot of entertainment from watching them interact You might be thinking of My Imaginary GF too. You pussies don't like Venezuela??? Just start a revolution bam problem solved. [Channeling MyIGF]
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Dec 5, 2016 18:44
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Flayer posted:The reason that Maduro still retains some support is largely down to the lack of an alternative good guy. The pre-Chavismo crowd were just as corrupt and the current opposition seem like they are playing along with the PSUV to keep things as is so that when they get in power they get their turn at running a kleptocracy. Without anyone decent to rally around its hard to inspire strong feelings. I reckon that's the primary reason there has not been a popular uprising against the PSUV - people are not inspired to fight for an opposition that is just as self interested as the PSUV. Pretty much, most of the MUD are veterans of the old regime which implemented brutal neoliberal reforms which resulted in the Caracazo in which 3,000 Venezuelans were murdered by the right wing government. Not to mention that it's no secret that MUD's economic agenda is the return of Saudi style decadence for lily white elite (Weekend shopping trips to Miami and Paris, private zoos, boob jobs Vaginoplasities, and anal bleaches for their 17 year old mistresses), and then mass privitization, repeal of social programs, and brutal ausiterity for the average Venezuelan who is already facing lean times. Combined with their well documented ties to Colombian death squads and racist ideology (The first act of the right wing assembly was taking down a historically accurate portrait of Simon Bolivar because it made him look "mulatto"). It's no wonder they're viewed with suspicion. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2016 01:48
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Nice job guys, you summoned him a la Beetlejuice.Flayer posted:The reason that Maduro still retains some support is largely down to the lack of an alternative good guy. The pre-Chavismo crowd were just as corrupt and the current opposition seem like they are playing along with the PSUV to keep things as is so that when they get in power they get their turn at running a kleptocracy. Without anyone decent to rally around its hard to inspire strong feelings. I reckon that's the primary reason there has not been a popular uprising against the PSUV - people are not inspired to fight for an opposition that is just as self interested as the PSUV. This assessment is kind of wrong. First of all, the previous government – corrupt as they were – were basically playing little league in comparison to Chavismo. For better of for worse, the country was trudging along back then, Chavismo came and basically hosed over what little there was that worked. You simply can't compare the situation today to that back before chavismo came to power. Secondly, I would argue that Maduro's remaining support are the hardline ideologues. The 'Chavez-blood runs through their veins' crowd. Maduro could kick a puppy on live television and they would argue the puppy had it coming because it was an imperalist agent. I do agree with the lack of trust in the opposition though, but the opinion that they're in cahoots with the government is not widespread. At worst, they're bumbling policitians that mistakenly think people can hang on until the next election.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:02
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I knew it! I knew this would happen!Borneo Jimmy posted:Pretty much, most of the MUD are veterans of the old regime which implemented brutal neoliberal reforms which resulted in the Caracazo in which 3,000 Venezuelans were murdered by the right wing government.
Borneo Jimmy posted:Not to mention that it's no secret that MUD's economic agenda is the return of Saudi style decadence for lily white elite (Weekend shopping trips to Miami and Paris, private zoos, boob jobs Vaginoplasities, and anal bleaches for their 17 year old mistresses), and then mass privitization, repeal of social programs, and brutal ausiterity for the average Venezuelan who is already facing lean times.
Borneo Jimmy posted:Combined with their well documented ties to Colombian death squads and racist ideology (The first act of the right wing assembly was taking down a historically accurate portrait of Simon Bolivar because it made him look "mulatto"). It's no wonder they're viewed with suspicion.
Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 03:35
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Well you guys said the main problem (well...one of many) is he'd never actually reply to arguments so maybe if I chant Borneo Jimmy three times he'll show up again and make a detailed reply to chuck Boone's welcome and Informative post Borneo Jimmy Borneo Jimmy Borneo Jimmy (Venezuela: Private Zoos, Boob Jobs, Vaginoplasities, and Anal Bleaches)
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Dec 6, 2016 03:45
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So Chuck, how would cutting social services, violently disbanding community orgniazations, and forced austerity help the Venezuelan people? I mean their literally starving according to your news sources, doesn't make sense to make things even harder for them. Not to mention you and other wealthy exiles have endorsed international sanctions which have led to humanitarian crisises in other countries such as Iraq seems pretty cruel coming from a guy enjoying the perks of a robust welfare state.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:32
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Pretty much, most of the MUD are veterans of the old regime which implemented brutal neoliberal reforms which resulted in the Caracazo in which 3,000 Venezuelans were murdered by the right wing government. Not to mention that it's no secret that MUD's economic agenda is the return of Saudi style decadence for lily white elite (Weekend shopping trips to Miami and Paris, private zoos, boob jobs Vaginoplasities, and anal bleaches for their 17 year old mistresses), and then mass privitization, repeal of social programs, and brutal ausiterity for the average Venezuelan who is already facing lean times. Combined with their well documented ties to Colombian death squads and racist ideology (The first act of the right wing assembly was taking down a historically accurate portrait of Simon Bolivar because it made him look "mulatto"). It's no wonder they're viewed with suspicion. It's amazing how this sentence can reflect what PSUV is accurately by merely changing "Caracazo" to "the current crisis, "murdered by the right wing government" to "murdered by OLPs", "privatization" to "expropriation", and "ausiterity" [sic] to "incompetence". You don't even have to change the Colombian death squads and racism part, they harbor guerrilleros and the only time the census in Venezuela has taken race into account has been under Chavez. I don't think he gets that the current situation is much, much worse than the Caracazo. The Caracazo was loving great compared to this. At least during the Caracazo you could find some loving food to eat. I'd rather have the Caracazo. Borneo Jimmy posted:So Chuck, how would cutting social services, violently disbanding community orgniazations, and forced austerity help the Venezuelan people? I mean their literally starving according to your news sources, doesn't make sense to make things even harder for them. Not to mention you and other wealthy exiles have endorsed international sanctions which have led to humanitarian crisises in other countries such as Iraq seems pretty cruel coming from a guy enjoying the perks of a robust welfare state. Alright it used to be funny, but now just gently caress off, rear end in a top hat. My father is dying because this government you love to defend made the medicine he needs for his heart disappear, just because of some loving kleptocrat. I lost 4 years of college level studies because the Ministry of Education won't do poo poo unless I pay them under the table and I loving refuse to continue giving money to those corrupt turds, they already stole Bs 200000 from me. I'd be willing to sell whatever I need to, to send you to rot in that hell, see if you like it so much then. fnox fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 04:34
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fnox posted:and the only time the census in Venezuela has taken race into account has been under Chavez. And this is a bad thing how? Turns out "Venezuelan's grand civil republican tradition" was just code for "Know your place darky!" Edit: but seriously fnox tell me how acknowledging Venezuelans of Afro and Indigenous descent is somehow racist. Borneo Jimmy fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 04:44
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Borneo Jimmy posted:So Chuck, how would cutting social services, violently disbanding community orgniazations, and forced austerity help the Venezuelan people? I mean their literally starving according to your news sources, doesn't make sense to make things even harder for them. Not to mention you and other wealthy exiles have endorsed international sanctions which have led to humanitarian crisises in other countries such as Iraq seems pretty cruel coming from a guy enjoying the perks of a robust welfare state. Jimmy, I've told you this before in previous ocassions and I'm going to tell you again: I don't hold any kind of resentment or anger towards you, and I'm trying to be as respectful in our interactions as I can be. Please keep this in mind as you read the rest of my post. I don't know what your personal history is, where you come from or what you're about, but I can see from reading your contributions to this thread that you are just barely familiar with the situation in Venezuela in only the most superficial level. What's most troubling is that it is evident that this familiarity with the country and the situation which it faces today comes only from a handful of only the most biased sources, including state-owned media outlets like Telesur. I can hear you saying, "Aha! But CNN is biased too, isn't it? What's the difference?". The answer is that there is no difference, as long as you're able to exercise one crucial function: critical thinking. And it is clear to me from our numerous interactions that you are simply not willing to think critically on these issues. I suspect that the reason why you do not want to (or are otherwise incapable) of reading sources like Telesur and Venezuelanalysis critically is the same reason why anyone reads anything uncritically: because the views you read on these websites align with your own. You have your own opinions (which in the case of Venezuela are hardly ever based on facts), and when you read your opinions validated on a website like Venezuelanalysis, you take the website/article to be true and correct. When you read an opposing fact in a website that does not align with your own personal opinions, then you take that fact to be false and wrong. Everyone does this to a certain extent. However, the fact that everyone does this does not excuse the behaviour. I want to propose to you that it is your responsibility - as is everyone's responsibility - to be a critical thinker, and being a critical thinker involves reading things that make you uncomfortable and, if you're lucky, changing your mind about a deeply-held belief because the facts simply do not support your opinions. Now, on the more substantial segments of your post: we can certainly have a discussion on what the financial future of Venezuela looks like in the short, medium and long term. I think that doing this will involve you taking a really big leap, which is to admit that the Venezuelan economy is in ruins. The Venezuelan economy is in ruins because Maduro and the PSUV destroyed it over a period of years, and this destruction was directly precipitated by Hugo Chavez's election in 1999. The destruction of the economy took on many forms, but we can attribute it primarily to mismanagement (which was either malicious or the result of gross incompetence), and corruption on a scale that Venezuela has never seen. I have not seen any policy come out of the National Assembly all year cutting social services or "forcing austerity", although I could be wrong about this (edit: I believe I am correct about this. However, if you find me a law that the National Assembly has passed that you think cuts social services/introduces some kind of austerity, I'll be happy to consider it). The fact of the matter is that Venezuela is spending money today when oil is at $50 dollars per barrel as if oil was still at $110 dollars per barrel. Part of the reason why the economy (and every social service program you can name me) collapsed is because of the government's stubborn inability to accept this fact and change spending habits accordingly. In other words, if the solution is to seriously reconsider the foundation of the Venezuelan economy or not have a Venezuelan economy at all, I'd argue that the former is worth a serious look. I don't know where you're hearing that community organizations are going to be violently disbanded; I don't know what you mean by "community organizations", either. If you mean colectivos armados [armed pro-government militias], then their disarmament is certainly going to be a priority in the post-PSUV era, and I would argue that this will be a good thing because the fewer unregistered weapons we have on the streets of one of the most violent countries on the planet, the better. I have not supported sanctions (in Iraq? or elsewhere). I suspect that you are referring to the sanctions that the US placed on a handful of Venezuelan officials who are suspected of being directly involved in human rights violations. There are no sanctions affecting any sector of the Venezuelan economy. Again, all of the sanctions in place today only affect a select number of individuals, and the sanctions freeze their assets and real estate in the United States. I think that these sanctions are good both as a deterrent to other Venezuelan officials from becoming involved in human rights violations, and as punishment for those who have already committed them. I cannot stress this enough: the sanctions that the US has placed on these individuals affects these individuals only, and cannot and do not affect the Venezuelan economy at all. These sanctions are not responsible for the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela - which, by the way, the PSUV still refuses to admit exists. Only the PSUV is responsible for the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. I am far from wealthy. My family is not wealthy, either. I'm telling you this not because I feel the need to defend myself, but only to demonstrate to you that you're coming into this conversation (and into the topic of Venezuela in general) with a mind full of assumptions that are simply not grounded in reality. I am enjoying the benefits of a robust welfare state (although I wouldn't call Canada "a robust welfare state" - still, I take your point), and I want nothing more than to extend those same benefits - and other, better ones - to the people of Venezuela. But you're deluding yourself if the PSUV is going to do that. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 05:07
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Yeah a census should collect data on racial distribution, otherwise you can't investigate and address racism effectively. That's normal in censuses. It's rather rude to laser in on these individual cracks in posts to avoid an honest discussion, though.
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