|
Xealot posted:The scripted "seeing beauty in the world" line was really heartbreaking for that reason. It was great. The sudden artifice of it slaps you in the face. Yeah, it's definitely a heartbreaking to learn whenever a host's words turn out to be something written for them. On the other hand, it's not the originality that makes the line important; it's in living it. There's been quite a few murders now. I don't think we have seen all the horror there is to see. It is still a beautiful world. quote:An honest question: would Ford actually kill himself? He's a lot of things, but above a lot of them he's an Egotist. I mean, I doubt they'd do something like, "the Ford who died was a secret copy from his lab," because Anthony Hopkins is expensive as gently caress and I got a "one and done" sense from him here. But his character is super compelling and narratively important. Well, I was very against Ford and critical of his motives, but doing a rewatch of the series with the perspective that he is sincerely trying to train Bernard (and, by extension, the rest of the ones who can change) to confront their enemies, his egoism may actually be the thing that's insincere about Ford all along. It's a show, one whose purpose is to get Bernard, Dolores, and whoever else he can reach with his stories to confront wickedness. Ford will live on like Arnold lives on: not just in Bernard, who is a simulacra now with its own independence and uniqueness, but in the imagination of the hosts, who can talk to Arnold as a creator-protector figure, which is also their own voice.
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 20:38 |
|
|
Combat Pretzel posted:The gently caress? This immediately redirects to some ISP's website with some Westworld PR text overhere. Try this: https://discoverwestworld.com/?forceus
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:16
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:I thought Ed Harris was playing the Gunslinger? They dropped the Wild West Terminator? Hector basically plays the Gunslinger role in the TV show's park, he's the blackhatted bad guy you shoot to show how badass you are
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:20
|
|
|
What the fuuuuuuck
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:22
|
|
|
The entire soundtrack is on spotify right now. After listening to Dr. Fords theme im back on board. Also The Maze is beatiful. Give all the awards to Ramin.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:34
|
|
|
Can't wait to see what people far more dedicated than I dig up in that Discover Westworld ARG.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:38
|
|
|
DoctorGonzo posted:The entire soundtrack is on spotify right now. After listening to Dr. Fords theme im back on board. Welcome back. Wow, these are great recordings. https://play.spotify.com/album/2poAUFGkHetMzM4xzLBVhY
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:45
|
|
|
Grem posted:Wouldn't Maeve just explode upon leaving the park? No because the plot demanded that Sylvester replace her exploding spine with a normal one even though she tried to kill him and had no power over him at that point. And Felix wasn't around to screw up his plan of bricking Maeve this time. Sagebrush posted:Also JFYI the main point of this episode was that the hosts are not conscious until they discover it themselves. Dolores was the closest to being self-aware (but still wasn't there yet) when Arnold decided to have her kill everybody. He recognized that all the hosts would eventually become conscious, that he had created intelligent life, and basically tried to euthanize them all before they got put into slavery in the park. Which is another thing that didn't make much sense. Ok Dolores and Teddy put a bullet hole in each of them. Surely Arnold would know that they can still build more unless he literally all the code himself and no one else knew how to do it. You hosed up Arnold. He should've destroyed their data and code too  override367 posted:I think it would be more complicated than that, unless President Cyber Trump is in charge I think an island of robots saying "We're intelligent creatures and we demand rights" would become an intensely profound debate They have the ability to become sentient, but so far Dolores is the only one. The rest have gone insane trying. Even then Ford had to help her out at the end. They aren't thinking feeling creatures. Just spin it as robots gone berserk and killed all the humans in the park.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:51
|
|
|
This was the best hour and a half of TV in a long while. What I don't understand is... why? Why the gently caress did Ford go out of his way to torture these creatures for 3 decades and make them really loving loathe us before being allowed to retain their sentience? He had three loving decades to prepare the ground for a peaceful integration of AIs into human society, he could have downgraded the Hosts a little so they weren't capable of self-wareness and kept the ones that had already attained sentience secret, protected and above all cherished and made to feel like their creators loved them. In time he could start raising the ethical questions of "should we keep AIs as slaves if they ever became sentient" before even revealing that sentience had already been attained. It could have all worked out for the best if they kept it simple. He wrote himself into a corner where the only way forward is war between humanity and the AIs. He deliberately wrote the extinction of his species. Was there some reason for this that I missed or did he simply think humanity should be replaced by AIs for ~*reasons*~? Seems to me he created the setting and encouraged people to let loose the worst in themselves by lying to them about the nature of their victims. Then he used that "blood libel" to sic an AI on us. Why? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:51
|
|
|
So the board lady tells the pissant guy he's "Not thinking big enough" re: smuggling data out of the park. I wonder if the writers even have an idea yet what they're talking about there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:51
|
|
|
The Glumslinger posted:I'd follow up on the dissapointment from the other guy. I think that if there wasn't going to be a season 2, then this would have been a great ending. Probably one of the best shows that HBO had ever done. But this feels like the kind of thing you can't do a sequel to and still keep the spirit of the story. I'm in the same boat. Felt like this was like, the end of a miniseries. Season 2 feels like it'll be very typical "robots hunt us etc etc" and then what? There's no actual "Westworld" left on a show about a theme park. For all intents and purposes the main hub of the story is in disarray. How they intend to stretch this to like 4 more seasons is beyond me. Also not gonna lie, sad that we lost 3 good actors in one swoop with Barnes, Simpson, and Hopkins all crossed out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:51
|
|
|
Really enjoyed this episode, but god I hope season 2 isn't about how awful violence towards your oppressors is. I can't loving stand that part of Humans. Doubt it will be though. Hopefully it stays fairly robo-centric.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:56
|
|
|
Were Hector and Teddy scripted to mock Will and Logan?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 15:55
|
|
|
Logan is taken to the edge of the park and sent away. It's unclear what the edge of the park actually is but I think it is possible that there is no staff beyond that point to know he is hurting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:09
|
|
|
Huxley posted:So the board lady tells the pissant guy he's "Not thinking big enough" re: smuggling data out of the park. He guessed that the data Abernathy had was Hale trying to blackmail someone, he "thought bigger" and figured out she was really trying to push Ford out and started demanding full creative control when he was gone etc
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:09
|
|
|
CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Which is another thing that didn't make much sense. Ok Dolores and Teddy put a bullet hole in each of them. Surely Arnold would know that they can still build more unless he literally all the code himself and no one else knew how to do it. You hosed up Arnold. That's exactly why Arnold had Dolores kill him, too. He said as much: they can just fix the hosts. It's reversible. It'd delay the opening, but not prevent it. Arnold thought (wrongly) that a host killing an actual human would be something the park couldn't recover from. That plus his depression is why he committed suicide-by-host.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:09
|
|
|
I'm confused about the 35 year ago parts. Why would Arnold shoot every host? They could just be rebuilt. He was the main developer, couldn't he have just bulk erased them and their backups and destroyed all his notes? Or made did that but making his own private backups, so he wouldn't kill them but could resurrect them at a later date on his own terms? They have shown that the hosts can be totally destroyed and then rebuilt with memories intact. OR being more clever, programmed glitches into them so the park can never open? Also I'd think the critical time for money would be the 35 year ago part, when the park isn't open yet and all the hosts shot up. But William / MiB doesn't show up until 5 YEARS later (FOREVER in business terms) to add cash. By then there was a fully functional huge park with billions invested and many repeating guests, I'm sure they could get backers/loans at that point, so why would William's investment be that big of a deal then? ALSO William was just some up-and-coming corporate worker, not the real money man. It seems a stretch he could sway the board that much. I guess he married into the money and his wife's family died and then he controlled their billions? OR am I not understanding the 35 year-ago parts?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:11
|
|
|
PowerBuilder3 posted:Also I'd think the critical time for money would be the 35 year ago part, when the park isn't open yet and all the hosts shot up. But William / MiB doesn't show up until 5 YEARS later (FOREVER in business terms) to add cash. By then there was a fully functional huge park with billions invested and many repeating guests, I'm sure they could get backers/loans at that point, so why would William's investment be that big of a deal then? Yeah that's pretty much it. It doesn't make a lot of sense and was something brought up against William being the MiB when it was first brought up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:17
|
|
|
PowerBuilder3 posted:I'm confused about the 35 year ago parts. I'm not too sure why Arnold needed the kill-all-hosts rampage, but the fact that they could be rebuilt is why he had Dolores kill him after--something that couldn't be reversed. I'd guess that he couldn't just erase all the code for one reason or another, maybe too many backups or something like that. It definitely seemed like a desperation move on his part. PowerBuilder3 posted:OR being more clever, programmed glitches into them so the park can never open? He sorta did, didn't he? Programming that "Arnold voice" into their heads to get them to eventually listen to their own voice, plus the apparent "violent delights" voice command that seemed to set Dolores off. PowerBuilder3 posted:Also I'd think the critical time for money would be the 35 year ago part, when the park isn't open yet and all the hosts shot up. But William / MiB doesn't show up until 5 YEARS later (FOREVER in business terms) to add cash. By then there was a fully functional huge park with billions invested and many repeating guests, I'm sure they could get backers/loans at that point, so why would William's investment be that big of a deal then? They probably had enough money just from the initial rush of investors and the first visitors to keep going for a while, but five years does seem like a stretch. PowerBuilder3 posted:ALSO William was just some up-and-coming corporate worker, not the real money man. It seems a stretch he could sway the board that much. I guess he married into the money and his wife's family died and then he controlled their billions? I'm not 100% sure how William usurped Logan, but I gather he basically undermined Logan's image and made him seem like too much of an unstable wildcard to lead Delos. But William, sure, he married into the family, but he's such a stable guy, with good business sense, he'd make a good leader. All he really needed to do, I guess, is get into the family's good graces and then undermine Logan enough that the board would install William instead. I do wish we'd have gotten more details on how he pulled it off. All we saw is him sending Logan out of the park, naked on horseback. How does he get around Logan saying "William did that to me!" or anything else?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:20
|
|
|
MeLKoR posted:This was the best hour and a half of TV in a long while. Nobody had to go around raping and killing. They could have just gone camping, horseriding, drinking, exploring. But, as it turned out, people really loved raping and killing the most. Bear in mind that the park has been open for 35 years or whatever, and is now accountable to a board. It's probably reasonable to assume that over time, the park has been refined to provide what most people are looking for. One of the major themes of the series is that the freedom offered in the park is a way to see your true self. And Ford has been watching for decades as most people's true selves turn out to be complete loving psychos. It's probably enough to make someone lose their faith in humanity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:20
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I'm not 100% sure how William usurped Logan, but I gather he basically undermined Logan's image and made him seem like too much of an unstable wildcard to lead Delos. But William, sure, he married into the family, but he's such a stable guy, with good business sense, he'd make a good leader. All he really needed to do, I guess, is get into the family's good graces and then undermine Logan enough that the board would install William instead. William is Jared Kushner and Logan is Don Jr.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:21
|
|
|
Pixelante posted:Have to say that the twist with Dolores' death scene being a theatrical performance for the board was absolutely fantastic. Brutally stripped the moment of significance in the space of a single second. Once again there's a stomach dropping-foreshadow immediately before, as Dolores says her thing about seeing the beauty in this world. We know that's something scripted.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:22
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Once again there's a stomach dropping-foreshadow immediately before, as Dolores says her thing about seeing the beauty in this world. We know that's something scripted. Reading books, the best twists are the ones you realize one page before you're told. This show has repeatedly succeeded in pulling the equivalent off on the TV screen. "What door?" into the drawing into "That doesn't look like anything to me" is the standout here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
MiB is going to have some trouble. One arm broken, the other arm shot. Fighting off the zombie horde with limited use of his arms is going to prove difficult, I think.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:51
|
|
|
PowerBuilder3 posted:I'm confused about the 35 year ago parts. JFC this was all explained explicitly via dialogue. How can you and the others asking these same questions just completely miss that? If you are confused about why Arnold set off a massacre and/or the MiB's role in the early stages of the park watch the episode again. It isn't even a show don't tell. They literally tell you. Goddamn.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:52
|
|
|
Bardeh posted:Nobody had to go around raping and killing. They could have just gone camping, horseriding, drinking, exploring. But, as it turned out, people really loved raping and killing the most. Bear in mind that the park has been open for 35 years or whatever, and is now accountable to a board. It's probably reasonable to assume that over time, the park has been refined to provide what most people are looking for. One of the major themes of the series is that the freedom offered in the park is a way to see your true self. And Ford has been watching for decades as most people's true selves turn out to be complete loving psychos. It's probably enough to make someone lose their faith in humanity. Since people didn't know that they were actually inflicting suffering on sentient beings that's like saying that "humanity is worthy of extinction as shown by the way even their children love to mass murder in FPS games". Yeah, it's creepy to think people would jump at the chance of loving a lifelike sex bot but loving an UltraReal Doll is not rape. That's not people's true self, nor would it be the full picture of humanity even if it were. Where did the Hosts get to experience all the self sacrifice and goodness humans are also capable off? Ford placed these creatures in a park, told people to torture them for 30 years because "they were just non sentient toys" and then "shown" the AIs "see how bad humans are? you have no option but to kill them all". That's bullshit, it didn't have to be this way if he didn't make it so.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:54
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I'm not 100% sure how William usurped Logan, but I gather he basically undermined Logan's image and made him seem like too much of an unstable wildcard to lead Delos. But William, sure, he married into the family, but he's such a stable guy, with good business sense, he'd make a good leader. All he really needed to do, I guess, is get into the family's good graces and then undermine Logan enough that the board would install William instead. I just inferred that Logan severely underestimated William and he was actually way more capable and ruthless than Logan thought, so whatever tactics William used against Logan weren't as important, just that Logan hosed himself by promoting this dude who is smarter than him and then driving him to unleash his true ruthlessness via Westworld I actually really liked this Logan/William story, and it'll make the MiB's season 2 story potentially interesting since he's thought for 30 years that this park shows you who you really are, and so he thinks he already knows who he really is, but maybe he doesn't know at all yet 
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 16:57
|
|
|
So they're after immortality, right? Ford's speech about "we eradicated disease, we're as good as we're going to get" combined with the sort of lamenting of time and death and how no matter what you do, you still end up in the ground and your bones turn to dirt make me think that's the real goal for the board. Create a body that never ages and never dies and then plant your consciousness in it and live forever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
Haven't read the whole thread, but here's a loose end: we never got an answer to what android Ford was building in his basement when Theresa was murdered. I'm not sure Ford is dead. No, Dolores. I wouldn't say that at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:03
|
|
|
re:immortality I'm guessing Ford knew about this idea and was possibly even in on it, given that Chekov's host he was creating in his basement was never disclosed. What if he was making himself, and uploaded his own consciousness before he had Dolores put him down? IMB fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Dec 5, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
physeter posted:Haven't read the whole thread, but here's a loose end: we never got an answer to what android Ford was building in his basement when Theresa was murdered. It's robo Ford
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:07
|
|
|
IMB posted:re:immortality Okay....so why wouldn't he have the host version of himself killed instead in this scenario?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:08
|
|
|
IMB posted:I'm guessing Ford knew about this idea and was possibly even in on it, given that Chekov's host he was creating in his basement was never disclosed. What if he was making himself, and uploaded his own consciousness before he had Dolores put him down? There's never been an indication in the show that consciousness can be uploaded to host bodies - if it was possible, wouldn't Bernard actually be Arnold, instead of just a host that looks like him?
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:09
|
|
|
whatever7 posted:Yeah I said it after she show up the first time.  at you calling Tessa Thompson a "cheap nobody actor."
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:11
|
|
|
It's kind of weird having a host that looks just like the murdered partner of Ford and nobody mentions it at all ever
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:11
|
|
|
IMB posted:So they're after immortality, right? Ford's speech about "we eradicated disease, we're as good as we're going to get" combined with the sort of lamenting of time and death and how no matter what you do, you still end up in the ground and your bones turn to dirt make me think that's the real goal for the board. Create a body that never ages and never dies and then plant your consciousness in it and live forever. I think this will inevitably be a theme in future seasons, one way or another. And if that tech did get out and humans started just replaced their bodies, are they functionally any different from a woke host? Which is kind of an old theme now I guess, but I hope it goes there just to see this show's take on it
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:12
|
|
|
MeLKoR posted:Since people didn't know that they were actually inflicting suffering on sentient beings that's like saying that "humanity is worthy of extinction as shown by the way even their children love to mass murder in FPS games". Yeah, it's creepy to think people would jump at the chance of loving a lifelike sex bot but loving an UltraReal Doll is not rape. That's not people's true self, nor would it be the full picture of humanity even if it were. Where did the Hosts get to experience all the self sacrifice and goodness humans are also capable off? Ford placed these creatures in a park, told people to torture them for 30 years because "they were just non sentient toys" and then "shown" the AIs "see how bad humans are? you have no option but to kill them all". Funny you should mention that -- children don't typically mass murder in video games until they're taught that that's what you're supposed to do. Some kids will try to obey traffic laws and play fireman if you plop them into GTA V. This is one aspect of the show where I think they're a bit too pessimistic about human nature. But it goes back to Michael Crichton and 70s fiction, which were both extremely pessimistic about technology and the future. If you look at the top ten best selling video games of all time, only GTA V and Diablo 3 feature realistic violence. The rest are puzzle, racing and platform games.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:12
|
|
|
Codependent Poster posted:
Well, she... is, tbf
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:15
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Funny you should mention that -- children don't typically mass murder in video games until they're taught that that's what you're supposed to do. Some kids will try to obey traffic laws and play fireman if you plop them into GTA V. Comparing a Westworld scenario to tradition games doesn't work.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 20:38 |
|
|
Bardeh posted:There's never been an indication in the show that consciousness can be uploaded to host bodies - if it was possible, wouldn't Bernard actually be Arnold, instead of just a host that looks like him? Not if Bernard's consciousness was never uploaded anywhere. All we were shown is Ford creating a facsimile based on his recollections of what Arnold was like.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2016 17:15
|
|