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If that wasn't the point then bringing it up served no real point. He could just be bad with words, granted. Maybe he is saying that is why everyone hates it, because lol no is the only answer to that.
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Dec 5, 2016 07:48
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It's perfectly valid to wonder if thisDStecks posted:See and I thought everybody knew that the Twilight backlash was because it was aimed at a female demographic. might be a consequence of how it and generations of books going back literal centuries have defined "aimed at a female demographic" in the first place in their deification of passivity. If patriarchal cultural assumptions have created an inferior space for women, nobody should be surprised when that space is treated as inferior. Sham bam bamina! has a new favorite as of 08:11 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 08:05
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Antivehicular posted:auuuugh why is Piers Anthony still alive in a world that lost Leonard Cohen whhyyyyyyyy
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Dec 5, 2016 08:05
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Sham bam bamina! posted:It's perfectly valid to wonder if this There's a lot of layers to it. It's true that, generally, "girl's entertainment" is objectively worse on average than boy's entertainment. More often than not boys are the default while girls get Barbie's Horse Adventures and Sex & Shopping, Am I Right Ladies?, a dumping ground of condescending stereotype reinforcing bullshit. The side effect of this, of course, is that feminine stuff gets synonymous with sucking and/or only ever being stereotypes, as opposed to just neutral concepts that can be used or not. Why is action urban fantasy seen as more principled than erotic urban fantasy? Why is action always Boy's Entertainment and why is erotic stories always Women's Entertainment? It's a clusterfuck. On one hand, feminine traits and what's typically seen as appealing to a female demographic should have an equal footing with male demo poo poo, but at the same time gendered traits like that are lovely and a result of societal bullshit.
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Dec 5, 2016 08:24
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Sham bam bamina! posted:It is unambiguously this; to read it otherwise is disingenuous. Well first of all, James Bond is awful schlock garbage by a wretched misogynist and racist, and is actively terrible, whereas Sex and the City was a funny show about a bunch of rear end in a top hat women having drama in new york. So I also strongly disagree with it even given your interpretation.
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Dec 5, 2016 09:33
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WickedHate posted:The side effect of this, of course, is that feminine stuff gets synonymous with sucking and/or only ever being stereotypes, as opposed to just neutral concepts that can be used or not. Why is action urban fantasy seen as more principled than erotic urban fantasy? Why is action always Boy's Entertainment and why is erotic stories always Women's Entertainment? It's a clusterfuck. On one hand, feminine traits and what's typically seen as appealing to a female demographic should have an equal footing with male demo poo poo, but at the same time gendered traits like that are lovely and a result of societal bullshit. Sham bam bamina! has a new favorite as of 10:43 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 10:34
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I Killed GBS posted:I haven't seen fanfic that poorly-written or blatantly gary-stuish in quite some time. Jesus. From the looks of it, it seems like once upon a time the idea was to build Kvothe up as this huge impossible legendary hero first, and then show the actually pretty mundane and lovely reality beneath the myth. Except apparently Rothfuss at some point decided that the latter part was too much effort and instead just plays the whole thing completely straight.
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Dec 5, 2016 10:50
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Leavemywife posted:I liked Starship Troopers. I wouldn't call it a bad book but goddamn, the ideas it preaches. Military service required before you're able to vote is just the tip of the iceberg of awfulness.
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Dec 5, 2016 10:59
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cyberbug posted:I wouldn't call it a bad book but goddamn, the ideas it preaches. Military service required before you're able to vote is just the tip of the iceberg of awfulness. I thought it was any service to the state, not just military service.
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Dec 5, 2016 12:38
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I Killed GBS posted:Well first of all, James Bond is awful schlock garbage by a wretched misogynist and racist, and is actively terrible, whereas Sex and the City was a funny show about a bunch of rear end in a top hat women having drama in new york. So I also strongly disagree with it even given your interpretation. If one was trying to prove the male fantasy isn't being so special that the opposite sex drops everything to sleep with you, James Bond isn't the best example to use.
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Dec 5, 2016 14:24
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Dienes posted:If one was trying to prove the male fantasy isn't being so special that the opposite sex drops everything to sleep with you, James Bond isn't the best example to use. Reminder because it's relevant both to this post and to the topic in general, that in the novel Goldfinger, Pussy Galore was a lesbian whom Bond was able to seduce because he was so manly and awesome and because "her sexual confusion is attributable to women's suffrage".
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Dec 5, 2016 14:37
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I know that this question was asked like, 4 pages ago but: On the subject of "Why would someone stuck in their favourite MMO be a a loner when their designed to be multiplayer?", .hack has an interesting answer in the .hack//Sign anime. At least 2 characters, the main couple, are treating fantasy as an escape, not a socialisation tool - The Blue haired girl is wheelchair bound in reality, while the main character is treating it as an escape from reality as he only had assholes in his real life, so stopped interacting with people entirely.
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Dec 5, 2016 14:46
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HopperUK posted:My favourite not-there subplot of Twilight is how Carlisle Cullen is a completely crazy person who is trying to force his century-old family into acting like a Regular Human Family. We play family baseball! THAT IS WHAT FAMILIES DO. GO TO SCHOOL. KIDS GO TO SCHOOL. We are a happy family. A HAPPY FAMILY. The ones that go to school, like Edward---what do their school records look like? I guess they are doctored somehow, as it would seem suspicious that one family has had members graduate from high school so many times. I read the first three Twilight books because I figured if I was going to hate on the series I should at least read them (I never read the fourth book because I got the books from a library and they didn't have the fourth book at the time and I lost interest). The first book's first half is literally Bella's first day of school in excruciating detail: my first class was this. I got there and took my textbook out of my bag. The teacher said this and I wrote this down in my notes. My next class was ____ and we did this. Next was lunch....... I did laugh at the end of the third book when Bella and Edward send a wedding invitation to Jacob. gently caress both Edward and Jacob. They're both creepy.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:13
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Twilight suffers from Bella being incredibly passive due to her creator's inability to write well in addition to all the terrible patriarchal ideas in the story: men are always heads of family, men should be obeyed, everyone is heterosexually paired off, women should stick to their man even through abuse, motherhood is the ultimate state of being and all women unwilling or unable to be mothers are aberrant and lesser. Normalizing that kind of crap is Twilight's (and especially 50 Shades) worst sin, it's the opposite side of the coin to Kvothe (normalizing the idea that men are entitled to the best of everything with zero effort because they're men). Twilight gets rightfully shat on for being badly presented and wrongfully shat on for being aimed at women. It's frustrating too because a lot of the ideas are interesting. I've come across rewritings (that robot interpretation upthread is neat) or "spitefic" ideas where Bella is allowed to be an active character or calls out Edward for the psychopath he is - he BARELY keeps himself from killing Bella, classmates, and the werewolf families on a regular basis, and later Bella is told she calmed the murderous rage in him, which to me is just another patriarchal crapload of women forced to do the emotional work for men. bean_shadow posted:I did laugh at the end of the third book when Bella and Edward send a wedding invitation to Jacob. gently caress both Edward and Jacob. They're both creepy. Massively creepy. There's several moments where one or the other grabs Bella by the arm or wrist (and I think Jacob forcibly kisses her at some point?) or even just says something vaguely threatening that come off as G/PG-rated assault. Yeah, romance tropes and all, but it's super-uncomfortable, especially when the characters are teens and you get folks who say "this reminds me of how my abusive ex treated me."
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Dec 5, 2016 16:45
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James Bond is an excellent example of toxic masculinity. I'm not even gimmickposting this time.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:52
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I like James Bond a lot and I haven't seen SPECTRE so no spoilers but in Skyfall that woman tells him about being a victim of sex trafficking her whole life and then it cuts to a scene of him just hopping into the shower with her while she's washing and it was super messed up.
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Dec 5, 2016 17:11
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Perestroika posted:From the looks of it, it seems like once upon a time the idea was to build Kvothe up as this huge impossible legendary hero first, and then show the actually pretty mundane and lovely reality beneath the myth. Except apparently Rothfuss at some point decided that the latter part was too much effort and instead just plays the whole thing completely straight. Have you actually read the book? Because it ends with Kvothe almost getting killed by some random mook demon at his run-down lovely country tavern because of a nasty and apparently permanent case of magical erectile dysfunction. The whole point really is that no matter what heroics he's done in the past, he's completely washed up by the time the first book starts and he begins telling this huge story about himself. I haven't read the second book with the sex-demon yet so maybe that goes off a cliff but I really liked that the first book goes out of its way to bookend all these tales of grandeur about Kvothe with him being a worried middle age guy literally waiting for death and hoping nobody notices him.
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Dec 5, 2016 17:48
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food court bailiff posted:Have you actually read the book? Because it ends with Kvothe almost getting killed by some random mook demon at his run-down lovely country tavern because of a nasty and apparently permanent case of magical erectile dysfunction. The whole point really is that no matter what heroics he's done in the past, he's completely washed up by the time the first book starts and he begins telling this huge story about himself. It goes off a cliff.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:06
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food court bailiff posted:Have you actually read the book? Because it ends with Kvothe almost getting killed by some random mook demon at his run-down lovely country tavern because of a nasty and apparently permanent case of magical erectile dysfunction. The whole point really is that no matter what heroics he's done in the past, he's completely washed up by the time the first book starts and he begins telling this huge story about himself. The second book goes extremely off a cliff. It spends maybe 5% of its length paying lip service to "well current-day Kvothe is kind of sad I guess" while the remaining 95% are wholly and utterly devoted to telling us how Kvothe is absolutely the raddest and most awesome dude to ever exist in his world.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:13
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food court bailiff posted:Have you actually read the book? Because it ends with Kvothe almost getting killed by some random mook demon at his run-down lovely country tavern because of a nasty and apparently permanent case of magical erectile dysfunction. The whole point really is that no matter what heroics he's done in the past, he's completely washed up by the time the first book starts and he begins telling this huge story about himself. He loses his virginity to the queen of the sex fairies, who doesn't believe that he's a virgin because he's so great in bed. I think he's also the only person who is able to leave to the queen of the sex fairies without going insane for constant sex from her. When he gets back to the real world some barmaid is able to sense that he's no longer a virgin and pretty much jumps on his dick as soon as she can.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:16
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I kinda want to read this ridiculousness for myself, but nope, not at those page counts. Urgh. Why does every fantasy novel since the '90s have to be an Ayn Rand-worthy doorstopper?
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Dec 5, 2016 18:20
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Perestroika posted:The second book goes extremely off a cliff. It spends maybe 5% of its length paying lip service to "well current-day Kvothe is kind of sad I guess" while the remaining 95% are wholly and utterly devoted to telling us how Kvothe is absolutely the raddest and most awesome dude to ever exist in his world. Probably going to have a heroic/tragic death in the end as well.
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Dec 5, 2016 19:39
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I kinda want to read this ridiculousness for myself, but nope, not at those page counts. Urgh. Why does every fantasy novel since the '90s have to be an Ayn Rand-worthy doorstopper? Trilogies are lucrative but not a done deal, so get most of your story out in book one in case it flops.
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Dec 5, 2016 20:03
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Publishers noticed at some point in (?) the late 80s (?) that fantasy novels between 80k-120k words sold a lot better, and started demanding authors pad their poo poo out. That's pretty much it.
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Dec 5, 2016 20:09
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food court bailiff posted:Have you actually read the book? Because it ends with Kvothe almost getting killed by some random mook demon at his run-down lovely country tavern because of a nasty and apparently permanent case of magical erectile dysfunction. The whole point really is that no matter what heroics he's done in the past, he's completely washed up by the time the first book starts and he begins telling this huge story about himself. The man had true-red hair, red as flame. His eyes were dark and distant, and he moved with the subtle certainty that comes from knowing many things.
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Dec 5, 2016 20:19
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In this moment, he was euphoric.
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Dec 5, 2016 20:24
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Arcsquad12 posted:Trilogies are lucrative but not a done deal, so get most of your story out in book one in case it flops.
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Dec 5, 2016 20:26
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Massively creepy. There's several moments where one or the other grabs Bella by the arm or wrist (and I think Jacob forcibly kisses her at some point?) or even just says something vaguely threatening that come off as G/PG-rated assault. Yeah, romance tropes and all, but it's super-uncomfortable, especially when the characters are teens and you get folks who say "this reminds me of how my abusive ex treated me." Before reading, I had known that Edward was creepy so I figured Jacob was the good guy. Nope. He's creepy and a Nice Guy (but I repeat myself). If I was forced to choose I would be on Team Edward because I just remember finishing the book hating Jacob that much more. I would have to go back and re-read to state specifics over why Jacob is worse and I prefer not to. I guess "imprinting on a newborn and falling in love with a seven year old" is reason enough.
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Dec 5, 2016 22:01
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Crossposting from YOSPOS. I think I might have a new favorite author.Sham bam bamina! posted:oh my god i have to post the first lines of all this guy's books together, this is some lyttle lytton poo poo 
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Dec 5, 2016 22:41
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BioEnchanted posted:I know that this question was asked like, 4 pages ago but:
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Dec 5, 2016 22:59
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Crossposting from YOSPOS. I think I might have a new favorite author. You're a skyshaker, landbreaker, hopemaker...
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Dec 5, 2016 23:05
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I kinda want to read this ridiculousness for myself, but nope, not at those page counts. Urgh. Why does every fantasy novel since the '90s have to be an Ayn Rand-worthy doorstopper? There was a big trend in the 80s and 90s for fantasy novels that were basically just novelisations of the author's DnD campaign, and those tend to run long.
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Dec 5, 2016 23:17
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Strom Cuzewon posted:He loses his virginity to the queen of the sex fairies, who doesn't believe that he's a virgin because he's so great in bed. I think he's also the only person who is able to leave to the queen of the sex fairies without going insane for constant sex from her. When he gets back to the real world some barmaid is able to sense that he's no longer a virgin and pretty much jumps on his dick as soon as she can. Which do people think is worse, sex fairy or the matriarchal warrior monks? I always go with the sex fairy because she's basically an NPC he needed to talk to to acquire an item he'll need in a later quest. Monks at least prompted some character growth.
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Dec 5, 2016 23:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:If that wasn't the point then bringing it up served no real point. I am bad with words. I'm also female. I was indeed making a cultural conditioning point. I have often been let down by the literature aimed at my gender, and Twilight carries on that tradition. Put it this way: If it were a story with a male protagonist, the fact that both a vampire and a werewolf love him would be a side issue, not the whole story, or it wouldn't get published. Guys get to have wish fulfillment that they're wanted by all women, but they also get to be strong and cool and clever and the best at everything. I've yet to read a female version of Stainless Steel Rat, for example. It's not the only thing that makes Twilight bad, but it sure contributes.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:48
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Crossposting from YOSPOS. I think I might have a new favorite author. First read as "The Eye of Argon". Second read the same.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:52
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The only possible saving grace to this is if we're supposed to find him utterly obnoxious and an unreliable narrator. And even then, I can get that from The Book of the New Sun in a much less irritating prose style.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:56
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Domus posted:I am bad with words. I'm also female. I was indeed making a cultural conditioning point. I have often been let down by the literature aimed at my gender, and Twilight carries on that tradition. Put it this way: If it were a story with a male protagonist, the fact that both a vampire and a werewolf love him would be a side issue, not the whole story, or it wouldn't get published. Guys get to have wish fulfillment that they're wanted by all women, but they also get to be strong and cool and clever and the best at everything. I've yet to read a female version of Stainless Steel Rat, for example. It's not the only thing that makes Twilight bad, but it sure contributes. You need to read amateur fiction or fanfic then if you want that stuff. It doesn't get published by big companies because they're owned by and pander to men. Or you could try Mercedes Lackey if you're desperate enough, but I'd go with the fanfic first tbh
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Dec 6, 2016 01:04
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Domus posted:I've yet to read a female version of Stainless Steel Rat, for example. It's not the only thing that makes Twilight bad, but it sure contributes.
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Dec 6, 2016 01:11
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I Killed GBS posted:You need to read amateur fiction or fanfic then if you want that stuff. It doesn't get published by big companies because they're owned by and pander to men. Why not read the Mercedes Lackey/Piers Anthony collab, If I Pay Thee Not In Gold?
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Dec 6, 2016 01:34
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Runcible Cat posted:Not SF, but hit up the Modesty Blaise series for a heroine who's a weapons and hand-to-hand combat expert, super thief, ex-crime-boss now retired and working for MI6, different boyfriend every book/comic storyline but stays on good terms with exes, etc etc. They're great fun. Was about to recommend Modesty Blaise myself. And I'd love a burn notice style Modesty Blaise TV show. Provided the executives didn't force in a romance with Willie, at least.
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