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NoDamage posted:Arnold's suicide-by-Dolores does not make a lot of sense to me. Why not stay alive and actively try to convince Ford and the company not to open the park instead? Or continue to sabotage the park opening? It seems by killing himself he basically handed over control to Ford, who then proceeded to open the park anyway without any resistance. His death did not accomplish its intended purpose at all. "I want to see my son again" Boom. Arnold was already a broken man, one who probably threw himself into his work to survive and keep his mind off his sorrow. After realizing that he created a daughter only to commit her to a life in Hell, he realized he didn't want to work on the robots anymore and thus wanted both to stop living and to have the park shut down. Two birds with one stone.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:10
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I liked that sly Jurassic Park reference talking about "Great beasts that roamed the land" that are now just "Bones and amber".
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Dec 6, 2016 03:13
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Eiba posted:I mean, if the point of the park is to let loose and do what you want without consequences, it'd be kind of weird to set it in an incredibly stable, rigid, peaceful period when you've got some perfectly good chaos and anarchy right there with the right aesthetic. As long as the players are given status, they're allowed to do whatever they want. Samurai could kill farmers with impunity, no? And then the competing wars between the various houses would provide TONS of conflict and quests. Maybe I'm thinking of a different time period than you, but wasn't the Shogun a loose confederacy and people were constantly fighting each other under the Shogun? And at some point in Japan's history I think there was a Shogun who was basically a figurehead... Anyways more realistically: Lycus posted:It probably wouldn't be about a particular period, just a mishmash of medieval Japan cliches. Westworld was like a summary of all of the West, especially what people think of it in the future, and mixed with some modern contemporary music and a few conveniences for the players. Shogunworld too then could be a mixture of Japanese cliches more than one particular date in history.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:14
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Intel&Sebastian posted:You have shot 2,868 lbs of board of directors meat but can only carry 200 back to the wagon Close the loving thread, Intel just won it.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:16
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I was just thinking, Samurai World does make a bit of a mockery of the whole weapons privileges thing...
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Dec 6, 2016 03:20
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Holy poo poo so I'm rewatching the show and in Episode 2 they subtly reveal that Bernard is Arnold. The first line of dialogue in the episode is a voice saying "Wake up Dolores" and it's Bernard's, although distorted.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:22
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What made the robots in itchy and scratchy land attack people? It's not the camera flash because that's what they use to kill them
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Dec 6, 2016 03:37
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Mustached5thGrader posted:What made the robots in itchy and scratchy land attack people? It's not the camera flash because that's what they use to kill them Found it, see below Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 03:40
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReOO3xLCTGI
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Dec 6, 2016 03:42
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Vehementi posted:Correct me if I'm wrong about anything here: I liked this part. You look at William and Logan's storyline and they talk about how people keep coming back to the park, again and again, sometimes seeing the same characters pop up as well. You go to Westworld to see your favorite characters, like poppping into a soap opera. This was to be the final conclusion to that storyline, bringing together dozens of different older characters. This narrative was to be for people like the MiB; the hardcore, dedicated audience. Teddy and Delores have been talking about going to the sea for 30+ years, and now they finally made it. You could be a part of that journey as well.  It is a hell of alot of backstory for something that only got to go through the loop once.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:44
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Adonis posted:Holy poo poo so I'm rewatching the show and in Episode 2 they subtly reveal that Bernard is Arnold. The first line of dialogue in the episode is a voice saying "Wake up Dolores" and it's Bernard's, although distorted. They did this in episode one too only they distorted Bernard's voice to sound like Stubbs.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:45
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Arnold's suicide didn't accomplish what it was meant to because William turned around and convinced his father in law's company to funnel oodles and oodles of cash into the park. The park was probably not yet the 80 sub-basement behemoth that we have now.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:49
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Bust Rodd posted:Arnold's suicide didn't accomplish what it was meant to because William turned around and convinced his father in law's company to funnel oodles and oodles of cash into the park. The park was probably not yet the 80 sub-basement behemoth that we have now. Well duh, it goes without saying that Arnold failed to stop the park from opening if the park is open.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:51
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Zaphod42 posted:Or did you mean Maeve? No, Maeve wasn't free. She never had a bicameral mind moment like Dolores, not yet. She's actually following a script Ford created for her. Although her getting on the train and doubling back seems odd, did Ford really write that? Did Ford write that she was supposed to leave the park and she choose to stay? Did he write that she stays and she tried to leave anyways? Hmmm. Ford can give Maeve directives, but he can't script reality. Maeve gets off the train because she sees a mother in front of her. Ford can't predict who's going to sit in front of Maeve. So that's the show's way to tell the audience that right that moment Maeve goes off-script. Caufman posted:What is the scene that reveals it was Ford behind Maeve's escape script? I know Bernard shows Maeve that someone has given her a new storyline, but he doesn't say it was Ford, and I don't remember Ford telling anyone he was behind Maeve. Bernard didn't know Ford is behind everything at that point. When Bernard later meets Ford in the church he tells him he thinks there's still Arnold behind everything. And Ford smiles and says, nope, it was me all along. Also, when Bernard arrives in the room Ford isn't even a little bit surprised, because he scripted that Maeve was going to find him and bring it back to "life". Vehementi posted:Why was there a new narrative at all? What did that add? Was the entire months of narrative development, park upheaval etc. that caused the board to have no confidence in him in the first place just to make a gala for them to all get shot in? Or Ford just likes poetry (like how he made Bernard shoot himself)? Ford explains during his speech that his narrative was for the hosts. The idea of religion was meant to thematically link with the concept of the "patricide" and "deicide". In order to be free the hosts had to kill their maker. He ordered Bernard to shoot himself to teach him humans are assholes (otherwise you don't waste time explaining yourself to a computer). He knew he was going to be revived. regulargonzalez posted:Anyone interested in how this meta level of thought is necessary for self-awareness should read some Douglas Hofstadter, particularly his books Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (which won the Pulitzer), I Am A Strange Loop (a more focused and straightforward rendering of this main point), and The Mind's I. For more insight i would suggest to read this short story: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2016/03/22/the-dime-spared/  (In very general terms, consciousness is a process that cannot track itself. That is blind to itself, and so confabulates a fantasy to explain what it cannot see. A narrative. Meaning.) The Glumslinger posted:Though the maze (since it belonged to his dead son) also was a direct development of Arnold's theory that pain is the key to a sense of self. From a philosophical point of view it wasn't pain. It was the realization that the world isn't the way you want it to be (leading to pain). That in technical terms it means the amount of information available to you is only a little part of all available information (but this is a rather convoluted sidetrack). Abalieno fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 03:56
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Please Eat A Vegetable posted:Perhaps the "Judas steer" that Delores mentions in Ep 1? You're reaching. The painting/adam and eve/etc. imagery was all confined to the finale
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Dec 6, 2016 03:58
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Re: Stubbs, timelines, and editing. Why in the world would they deliberately edit it out of order like that? I mean they show a flashback scene, then show Stubbs saying 'she's gone off loop intervene' etc, we flash back again and see the person he 'dispatched'(didn't actually dispatch) seeing that she's with a guest. Why edit it like this? There is no point to it aside from being some kind of willful deception that's pointless because they reveal everything anyway, or he's a host and it's just not brought up this season.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:00
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Justin Credible posted:some kind of willful deception that's pointless because they reveal everything anyway Are mysteries pointless because they have solutions at the end?
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Dec 6, 2016 04:06
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WampaLord posted:Are mysteries pointless because they have solutions at the end? This just in, every mystery novel is bad because they mislead you into suspecting people who are not ultimately guilty.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:15
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What was the wolf about? That was the only prt of the show that made me go... "What the gently caress is that about?
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Dec 6, 2016 04:19
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Justin Credible posted:Re: Stubbs, timelines, and editing. It's a red herring. It counteracts the voice saying "Wow it's kind of weird that half of the main characters of the show never really seem to interact with the other half for some reason."
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Dec 6, 2016 04:21
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Bicyclops posted:I hope that I only have to wait about a year for season 2, instead of like, sometime int he middle of 2018. But S2 doesn't have Hopkins though. I don't think its possible to live up to S1. Peter Abernathy can only carry the show so much. My theory is spirit of Arnold is hiding inside Abernathy since he is clearly an important character.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:24
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Bust Rodd posted:What was the wolf about? That was the only prt of the show that made me go... "What the gently caress is that about? That was an advertisement from 1992 that got spliced into the final cut by accident.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:24
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Intel&Sebastian posted:You have shot 2,868 lbs of board of directors meat but can only carry 200 back to the wagon
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Dec 6, 2016 04:31
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Abalieno posted:Ford can give Maeve directives, but he can't script reality. He totally could if he wanted to tho.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:34
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Zaphod42 posted:"I want to see my son again" Bust Rodd posted:Arnold's suicide didn't accomplish what it was meant to because William turned around and convinced his father in law's company to funnel oodles and oodles of cash into the park. The park was probably not yet the 80 sub-basement behemoth that we have now.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:50
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Lycus posted:Why do you think Arnold believed these things? Like someone said thirty pages ago, the music and what Ford has said before. Got alot of thoughts after catching up just now, probably going to let them stew for a night. But I just want to thank them for willing to go full hog on this thing and not welch on the ending. That's a brave and incredibly non-TV thing to do.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:55
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If the maze is the Host's journey for consciousness what's the deal with the symbol being everywhere and the little girl and armistice giving clues to Old William.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:56
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Yeah, no poo poo. His intention was to show that the hosts were too dangerous to have around people. Dolores killed other hosts and even killed Arnold so she somehow disobeyed her samaritan protocol. He hoped that would shut the project down for good. Unfortunately, Ford covered everything up, including Arnold's existence.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:56
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fadam posted:If the maze is the Host's journey for consciousness what's the deal with the symbol being everywhere and the little girl and armistice giving clues to Old William. Ford needed William's money to keep the park running long enough, so he strung the nutbar along for a few decades with breadcrumbs that could lead to an autonomous Dolores. Poor Billy. He started off so Canadian.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:03
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fadam posted:If the maze is the Host's journey for consciousness what's the deal with the symbol being everywhere and the little girl and armistice giving clues to Old William. Because every host kept telling him the maze isn't meant for him. he got the information by killing indiscriminately until one of the hosts told him something.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:05
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fadam posted:If the maze is the Host's journey for consciousness what's the deal with the symbol being everywhere and the little girl and armistice giving clues to Old William. I feel like the symbol being everywhere is part easter eggs, part artistic direction for the show. Like when it just starts appearing on the barrel and the dirt, I don't think that's really happening. But the scalp one is probably real.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:07
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First thought, the finale really validated my sense that the ultimate aims of Bernard and Ford were similar. It all makes sense when you realize that Ford is not as robotic as he seems, finding his humanity in giving his creation (his metaphorical children) their lives, earned by lifetimes of suffering. The reveries was an Arnold invention, but Ford protected it, and killed for it. In the end that is what you do for your children. He's also dramatic as gently caress. In a very Nolan-esque, taking you to your logical end-point, after a circuitious path culminating in an over the top emotional peak. Nothing else in this show makes sense if you don't get how much Ford mimics his own creators. Ford is a tougher man than Arnold, and was willing to see what it would take to make them suffer and awaken (again, very rooted in the notion of samsara and breaking the wheel of existence). I don't think Arnold could have stomached it. While Arnold's death was a mercy, Ford's was an operatic Titus like gesture, of saying gently caress you to this world he outright loving hated. He hated it, and every loving human pretty much. Might as well have the robots give it a shot, after all he spent the whole series lavishing praises on them. When did his turn happen? I'm thinking around the time he found his son fascimile killing that dog. Maybe that's when he thought they might be ruthless and unpredicatible enough to fight off the savage humans. It seems to be a rational fear of extermination driving him. Maybe he now thinks they can hold their own? Who knows, Hopkins might be done but we'll be dealing with his machinations for the rest of the series most likely. Again, very cool they had the balls to commit to change. Otherwise we'd be stuck in a loop of our own, reliving just a bunch of atrocities for no real gain whatsoever (which the critics went after the show in the first couple of episodes, ironically enough).
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Dec 6, 2016 05:15
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Dr. Ford went from wild west killbots to outer space killbots pretty quickly, it seems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDKE147Utc
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Dec 6, 2016 05:14
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Superrodan posted:It's a red herring. It counteracts the voice saying "Wow it's kind of weird that half of the main characters of the show never really seem to interact with the other half for some reason." That much is obvious, but it totally undermines the fact that most of that plotline is supposed to be Dolores' recollection. But we go from Dolores outside by the fountain to Stubbs trying to put Dolores back on her loop, to memory/time fuckery between the present day where Dolores is alone and the past where she's being accosted by a host. I mean yeah, that plot is also kicked off by scenes between William and Logan that don't involve Dolores and there are moments with William and Logan alone that obviously aren't Dolores' memories. But none of those moments are as directly deceptive as that one. For that matter, is Stubbs in the present and then they flashback to the past to a previous time she was also harassed by a host?
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Dec 6, 2016 05:23
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aBagorn posted:"Oh for fucks sake, you're not one of us"  KoRMaK posted:psuedo ssh-ing lol
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Dec 6, 2016 05:39
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King Vidiot posted:For that matter, is Stubbs in the present and then they flashback to the past to a previous time she was also harassed by a host? Yes. It is definitely deceptive editing, I agree. To clarify, the moment itself where Stubbs is trying to figure out if she's off track or with a host is caused by her remembering being with William and revisiting her journey alone. She thinks she's with William to the point where not even the computers can tell. As for why someone checked on her in the past, I assume it's because in all of her journeys she hit the exact radius that triggers some kind of warning.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:44
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NoDamage posted:Except it didn't shut the park down... This is actually an error on the writers' part. Watch the diner scene between Ford and Theresa, Ford says Arnald bet him not to let the moneymen and Delos come in. So the Delos money comes in before Arnold is killed. And then Ford says to Dolores in e10 she convinced Williams to invest in the park. So either Ford is lying, or there is a contonuety error.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:46
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I could be wrong because I haven't rewatched yet but the way I remember it, Stubbs said something noncommittal like "Keep an eye on her" and it's just implied that the host who accosts her is a result of that. e: whatever7 posted:This is actually an error on the writers' part. Watch the diner scene between Ford and Theresa, Ford says Arnald bet him not to let the moneymen and Delos come in. So the Delos money comes in before Arnold is killed. No, you're forgetting that William and Logan refer several times to 'increasing' the company's share in the park. There's a preexisting investment before the William/Logan plotline.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:47
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Westworld is a pretty lovely theme park IMO, everyone who goes there ends up wanting to die.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:50
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So Delos is looking to put money into the park, Arnold dies and they still go through with the deal, but there are still financial issues and the park looks like it will go under. William has his adventure, gets out and makes sure the park survives even if it's financially irresponsible. He covers up his obsession with the place with whatever shady thing Delos are trying to do, that we've been told about, but haven't been shown. e:Or yeah to put it an easier way this Gadzuko posted:There's a preexisting investment before the William/Logan plotline.
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Dec 6, 2016 05:53
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