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Riso posted:The party may or may not be but the majority of their voters certainly are not. Then their voters are either willing fascist accomplices or blind and deluded.
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Dec 6, 2016 16:42
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Then their voters are either willing fascist accomplices or blind and deluded. What they are is people angry at the establishment who want to send a message.
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Dec 6, 2016 16:50
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Riso posted:What they are is people angry at the establishment who want to send a message. They could vote for a minor party that isn't fascist instead.
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Dec 6, 2016 16:52
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Riso posted:What they are is people angry at the establishment who want to send a message. (The King of Italy re: the March on Rome, circa 1922, probably.)
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Dec 6, 2016 16:53
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Riso posted:What they are is people angry at the establishment who want to send a message. Why don't they vote for Melenchon then?
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Dec 6, 2016 16:54
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Badger of Basra posted:Why don't they vote for Melenchon then? Because there's no bigger gently caress you in french politics than voting FN.
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Dec 6, 2016 16:58
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Mikl posted:(The King of Italy re: the March on Rome, circa 1922, probably.) I was serious about this, by the way. The Fascists marched on Rome, the military went to the King and said "We can absolutely kick their poo poo in if it comes to that, what should we do sire?" and he said "They're people angry at the establishment who want to send a message, let's put them in charge and see how they do." You do not dismiss endorsing fascists as "wanting to send a message". It legitimates them. It's how they get in power. It's loving dangerous.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:03
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From what I know, the change of power was arranged before that. The march was merely great propaganda.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:13
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No, it was a coup. The fascists had great popular support, especially in the north, and the Mussolini government was established legally, but only because the King folded and handed them the country for fear of a civil war. There was nothing arranged in advance. It was literally armed militiamen marching on the capital and saying "Give us the country, or else."
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Dec 6, 2016 17:19
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icantfindaname posted:Well you could argue Hartz 4 style labor market liberalization would be good for France, but that's apparently already done by mr 4% approval rating, soooo. Is Fillon a true believer, full-bore Ayn Rand libertarian like the American GOP? His program:
(* There are two types of adoption in France, a "simple" and a "full" adoption. With simple adoption you basically just become the child's caretaker, not the child's family, and you can lose that status for a variety of reasons. With full adoption the child is legally considered your own, with all the expected consequences on stuff such as inheritance.) In short he is absolutely horrible and the priority of the Left should be to do everything they can to block him from reaching power.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:19
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Cat Mattress posted:His program: I mean, it's a little late for that. Maybe use a time machine to go back to 2012 and make Hollande not a disaster? also, holy poo poo a 48 hour work week? 
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 17:25
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Cat Mattress posted:In short he is absolutely horrible and the priority of the Left should be to do everything they can to block him from reaching power.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:27
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PS if you ever find yourself thinking "that country could do with some labour liberalisation" maybe look at the UK for what that has created already in Europe. Very unhappy people with not much more money than before, because everyone is expected to do full hours plus a bit more just for the fun of it so you're not exactly getting a competitive advantage by turning up for a 40+ hour week you're just someone at their job.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:30
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From a quick reading of the wiki on Le Pen it looks like she has some relatively leftish domestic positions - increased emphasis on corporate tax hitting big businesses, supporting civil servants etc. Whats her position on the working week hours? Ignoring the foreign policy stuff - isolation-ism, immigration etc - it sounds like she wouldn't be half as neo-liberal as Fillon domestically at least. Is that an accurate assessment?
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Dec 6, 2016 17:39
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By the way nobody ever responded to this, if anyone knows anything about the topic:icantfindaname posted:This is a little off topic, but compared to Portugal and Greece, how much did the PSOE in Spain do the kind of clientelistic patronage politics that the post-democratization left wing parties there did?
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Dec 6, 2016 17:40
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Could you de bullshit that question and we'll think of an answer.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:45
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Blut posted:From a quick reading of the wiki on Le Pen it looks like she has some relatively leftish domestic positions - increased emphasis on corporate tax hitting big businesses, supporting civil servants etc. Whats her position on the working week hours? My God, how did it come to this? I'm not French, but after doing some quick research I think they would be better off with proto fascist Le Pen than Fillon (except minorities, I guess). Someone really needs to go back in time and prevent Biff from stealing the almanac, because this timeline sucks balls.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:48
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hahahahaha Schäuble just check mated the EC by saying that the "Eurozone is growing above potential at 1.7% while the EC stated that the potential is 1.0% therefore we don't need to spend money but do more structural reforms to increase the potential" https://tvnewsroom.consilium.europa.eu/event/ecofin-council-december-2016-58346696a1c06/national-briefing-germany-part-1-5846d00abba7e (also funny opening about his iPad)
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Dec 6, 2016 17:50
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Freezer posted:My God, how did it come to this? I'm not French, but after doing some quick research I think they would be better off with proto fascist Le Pen than Fillon (except minorities, I guess). That's pretty much the (awful) conclusion I came to too. Figured I'd ask in the thread to see if any Frenchgoons could provide some more in-depth knowledge, though.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:54
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Riso posted:The party may or may not be but the majority of their voters certainly are not. Oh, this reminds me: Here's in an article (in French) about a gay FN member who left the party after being called a "LGBT parasite", "pederastic trash" or, more simply, "sodomite". I also recall a similar story from a few years ago, but with a couple of North African descent. This has been your friendly reminder that the reason only Le Pen and a few people in her inner circle are regularly in the media is because a good chunk of the party's members are, in fact, fascist assholes in the image of her father. [Edit] Pro-tip about Le Pen sounding more left-wing than Fillon: she knows how to lie. Drain the swamp!
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Dec 6, 2016 17:56
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That's why I said Fillon manages to make Le Pen look like the lesser evil. Not saying she actually is, but that she looks like it.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:58
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I jokingly wanted Sarko to win the Républicain primary so my vaguely lefty French friends would be forced to endure voting for him to keep the FN out, but having them forced to vote for an out-and-out Thatcherite is also good I guess.
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Dec 6, 2016 17:59
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LemonDrizzle posted:I jokingly wanted Sarko to win the Républicain primary so my vaguely lefty French friends would be forced to endure voting for him to keep the FN out, but having them forced to vote for an out-and-out Thatcherite is also good I guess. This same logic of "surely you'll vote for my lovely candidate because the alternative is awful" was widely believed by the US Democratic Party. Turns out, many of those people just stayed home. Woops.
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Dec 6, 2016 18:05
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Cat Mattress posted:That's why I said Fillon manages to make Le Pen look like the lesser evil. Not saying she actually is, but that she looks like it. Yeah, I was responding to Freezer and Blut. She absolutely isn't the lesser evil, as you say.
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Dec 6, 2016 18:06
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Badger of Basra posted:Why don't they vote for Melenchon then? We hate these soixante-huitard fucks, let's vote for this soixante-huitard instead
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Dec 6, 2016 18:11
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I really do not envy the French right now. Jesus Christ what an awful choice.
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Dec 6, 2016 18:17
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All this previous talk of the new Euro-left face and nobody mentioned PT Prime-Minister Antonio Costa, Professional Communist Charmer, who has managed to survive for a full year(and most likely next year too) in a minority government with a parliamentary agreement of Left Bloc and the Portuguese Communist Party. It's honestly one of the most incredible political balancing acts I have seen, considering all the bad blood surrounding these three parties, and that it has survived to pass a second budget without any major issues along the way is mind blowing. He even got some hardcore communists talking nice about a PS dude.
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Dec 6, 2016 18:23
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Electronico6 posted:All this previous talk of the new Euro-left face and nobody mentioned PT Prime-Minister Antonio Costa, Professional Communist Charmer, who has managed to survive for a full year(and most likely next year too) in a minority government with a parliamentary agreement of Left Bloc and the Portuguese Communist Party. It's honestly one of the most incredible political balancing acts I have seen, considering all the bad blood surrounding these three parties, and that it has survived to pass a second budget without any major issues along the way is mind blowing. Sold.
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Dec 6, 2016 19:40
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GaussianCopula posted:hahahahaha Schäuble just check mated the EC by saying that the "Eurozone is growing above potential at 1.7% while the EC stated that the potential is 1.0% therefore we don't need to spend money but do more structural reforms to increase the potential" Schäuble honestly believes Neuverschuldung is evil in and of itself, doesn't he.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:50
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GaussianCopula posted:hahahahaha Schäuble just check mated the EC by saying that the "Eurozone is growing above potential at 1.7% while the EC stated that the potential is 1.0% therefore we don't need to spend money but do more structural reforms to increase the potential" this is fine.jay peg.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:52
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double nine posted:this is fine.jay peg. I remember when Germany was whining about only 2% growth.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:55
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Toplowtech posted:Yeah, she is like the ultimate lovely short-term vision only politician. And the worst ecology minister. Also she was loving scaring the Japanese ambassador during the 2007 election. Like we are one of the most nippon-phile country in Europe and she went into such a Tipper Gore level morale panic jihad against violence in japanese show in the 90s for cheap political points (some genius put Fist of the north star at 3 pm a day the 7 years old kid didn't have school on the most watched show on tv, because lol people are stupid as poo poo)the Japanese were afraid she would damage the japanese-french relationship. Also fyi her brother was one of the agents who blew up the Green Peace's Rainbow Warrior. The more I learn about this person, the more she sounds like a Captain Planet villain.
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Dec 6, 2016 22:26
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Libluini posted:The more I learn about this person, the more she sounds like a Captain Planet villain. On the other hand, we got Sarkozy in her stead.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:07
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I mean don't expect full communism now from the guy,but he's a incredible skilled politician that puts great emphasis in dialogue and personal connections between party leaders to get things done.he did the same coalition kinda when he was mayor of Lisbon ,that's where all the personal relationships with the left block and the communist party come from.communist like the guy because 1) he's part of the left wing of the socialist party 2) he sticks to what was agreed or promised 3) he constantly owns the former center right PM on parliament 4) he won't backstab you unless you piss him off He's still on a very tight rope though and if his political future comes to depend for him to tack to the center he will.I think that the left coalition will stay stable until 2018 at least. He won't rock the boat on the eu though. He's basically Antonio guterres star pupil and I'm quite sure he'll try to run for eu president or the UN Secretary General when he's done with politics in Portugal. Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 23:11
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Badger of Basra posted:Why don't they vote for Melenchon then? One hundred percent because FN is the party with the momentum and not Front de Gauche. You can very much blame the media for that, because it's a lot more fashionable to play fascists as the outside element instead of leftists by trying to fake outrage at their rejection of western values. That ends up giving them a platform, and legitimising them as the True Outsiders who hate the system (which fucks you, regular Frenchman, over, but you know that by yourself so the article you're reading doesn't need to tell you, you fill that in yourself and the article that was talking about the lovely views of FN instead becomes an article about the enemy of your enemy). Do communists get anything similar? Hell no they don't. And there might be a couple of understandable reasons for that (communists having been part of a liberal democratic government in recent memory, the delegitimisation of communism being much more recent than the delegitimisation of fascism, and so on).
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Dec 6, 2016 23:32
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Cat Mattress posted:In short he is absolutely horrible and the priority of the Left should be to FTFY with what seems to be the most likely outcome. realtalk: I'm not that plugged into French politics myself, so I'm honestly staggered at how many loving leftist parties seem to exist in France, how is this electorally possible without them cannibalising each other to the point where some die off?
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Dec 6, 2016 23:32
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sheep-dodger posted:FTFY with what seems to be the most likely outcome. Easy, they just cannibalize each other to the point where some die off. Honestly, that's just how leftist politics work in this country, even for people who don't think elected officials are legitimate ("put two anarchists in a room and they'll start beating each other up in a matter of minutes" as we say, same with leftist parties) It used to be different right after the second world war with an armed communist majority who managed to pass reforms like universal healthcare and other forms of welfare, but after that ~something happened~ e: Plus, I would argue that the multitude of parties is healthy democratically, even though it's not a winning move in our representative democracy. What some might call "infighting" or "splitting the vote" is actually democracy at work, it's just viewed through the prism of winner-takes-all elections in a country with big, uniform parties that end up taking the lion's share of the vote even though their respective agendas are dodgy at best, and in some cases even detrimental to the majority. I'm sick of seeing the many leftist parties being used as ammunition by pundits who then argue about their "legitimacy", it's very toxic and I could talk about it for hours. x420ReDdIT_Br0nYx fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 01:04
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How to understand what's happening in French politics: voters prefer the original to the copy. In this simple phrase, you have everything you need to understand, and everything that French politicians have not, do not, and never will understand. On the left, you have the socialists, who have copied right-wing politics. They're losing votes because voters prefer right wing politics to be enacted by actual right wing parties. On the right, you have people calling themselves The Republicans (TR). To avoid confusion with US Republicans, I'll use their former name of UMP to distinguish. So: TR-UMP. TR-UMP politicians copy the FN. They're losing votes because voters prefer fascist politics to be enacted by actual fascist politicians. Basically, our only hope is that the loop be completed by FN politicians copying leftist politics. If this doesn't happen, we're screwed. Alternatively the solution would be for the socialists to enact actually leftist politics instead of authoritarian deregulation; and for the so-called Republicans to enact actually center-right politics instead of trying to be Jean-Marie-Le-Pen,-But-Younger-And-With-A-Different-Name. But that's never going to happen because they all are loving stupid. All of them are dead certain that the disease is the cure. The right believes that by being more fascist, they'll get back the votes they're losing to the FN, when the reason they're losing votes to the FN is that they're being more fascist. The left is persuaded that by following right wing politics they'll get the votes of right-wing voters when all that happens is that they lose the votes of left-wing voters. But it makes sense, the belief that the cause of a disease is the cure for it is also why all European politicians are persuaded that they can get out of a recession by going ever further with austerity. Really what's needed is to get rid of all politicians and replace them with randomly-chosen people. Just make sure they are adults without a criminal record, and they can't be worse than the frequently corrupt imbeciles that have been pursuing failed policies for over 20 years.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:25
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So what exactly happened in Italy?Cat Mattress posted:How to understand what's happening in French politics: voters prefer the original to the copy. Nice write up.
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Dec 7, 2016 05:23
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punk rebel ecks posted:So what exactly happened in Italy? Renzi resigned; president Mattarella convinced him to delay the resignation until after the annual economic law was passed, because said law has to be approved by the end of December and the added instability from having to nominate a new prime minister can wait until that is over with. The law is currently in the senate and it's been fast-tracked, today there's a vote; I don't know if it'll have to go through the chamber again but it'll be fast-tracked there too. It wouldn't surprise me if it were approved by friday or monday. After the vote on the law (14:30) Renzi and his party will have a meeting to decide on a scenario to follow, and he'll probably resign tomorrow. After that, there are 2 scenarios. First one is a new government, scenario 2 is early elections this spring. In the second scenario Renzi stays as prime minister, because there would be no point in appointing a 3 months government, and a new electoral law for the senate would have to be approved quickly. Omobono fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 12:15
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