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It's me, I'm the guy spinning around and disappearing a lot and leaving syrup everywhere
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Dec 6, 2016 19:48
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I just watched the episode last night and I gotta say the scene with Carl holding Lucille wasn't so unbelievable. Negan makes a point to look at his reaction every few seconds; he clearly was ready for Carl to make a move if he was going to. That is until he started walking down the stairs. Carl had a perfect chance + height advantage. I guess Lucille has a level/class requirement?
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Dec 6, 2016 20:13
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Maybe he just thinks they do. In that kneeling scene he told Carl they were showing him respect. But then he also seems to think that his wives are with him completely willingly. I had no idea what they were talking about, between the bad audio and them mumbling to each other under their breath as though they dont want the viewer to overhear them.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:28
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I love this show's logic. Carl goes to kill Negan, gets him dead to rights, monologues at him, and never takes the easy shot. So dumb.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:57
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Blazing Ownager posted:I think I narrowed down my problem. It's not that, or the mugging, or ANYTHING he's doing with the character: It's the plot armor. ERGO, no one fucks with him Negan made this perfectly clear for Carl when he threatened Daryl if Carl did anything, so Carl did nothing
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Dec 6, 2016 21:04
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Crazy thought: what if someone went to kill him and didn't care if they died too?
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Dec 6, 2016 21:10
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the saviours would kill all their friends, that's what eugene was hinting at when they had that discussion in the show
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Dec 6, 2016 21:14
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why didnt someone just shoot [every tyrant in history]
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Dec 6, 2016 21:17
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Zzulu posted:why didnt someone just shoot [every tyrant in history] 
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Dec 6, 2016 21:23
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Most tyrants have loyal people close to them, it feels like all of the Saviors just hate or fear Negan. The show hasn't done anything to convince me that there would be any serious retribution if he died. Like, why would Dwight give a poo poo?
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Dec 6, 2016 21:24
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A True Jar Jar Fan posted:Most tyrants have loyal people close to them, it feels like all of the Saviors just hate or fear Negan. The show hasn't done anything to convince me that there would be any serious retribution if he died. Like, why would Dwight give a poo poo? Just because we see the scenes at the saviors camp that reflect this and see that Dwight wouldn't give a poo poo doesn't mean that anyone on the outside has any knowledge of that. They act right when they're out and about and Negan is watching over everything. I can't think of anything that has happened that would give Rick's crew the impression they could just go do it and all of the Saviors would follow them. Obviously Carl seems like a likely catalyst for this, but Carl is also a gigantic retard, so... They pretty clearly seem to be building up the viewer to anticipate Rick's crew finding this out and thus starting the war against Negan. But right now we have a sense of the vibe and they don't.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:40
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Dwight probably should have killed him like a dozen times by now.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:44
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Zzulu posted:why didnt someone just shoot [every tyrant in history] If Hitler went down to the Grotto with 2 guys, handed an "undesirable" community leader a loaded Luger, then turned their back to them and told them to watch them gently caress everyone up in the grotto before going into a room alone with them, yeah, I would be asking that question. Zzulu posted:How does he have plot armor? He has an army. If you gently caress with him the army fucks you Are you loving serious or trolling? Probably trolling. Dude walked up to Carl who was already mowing down Negan's men, who had an assault rifle and Carl just.. didn't shoot at him because reasons. Rick was alone in a room with him numerous times, armed, and we all know how Rick would react in-character to this poo poo, he'd probably die fighting at worst. He treats most of his men like poo poo, while they are armed. He shows up PERSONALLY at the front gate of a settlement he just "took over," with no backup plan shown to the viewer (again the comics do NOT have a lot of these issues, even though they have issues, from what I've been told) and NOBODY takes a shot at him. Then he goes back to the settlement, AGAIN, with like 1/10th the guys this time and just wanders around and nobody takes a shot at him. It's loving dumb. Since you're determened to be one of those people to go "Like, real world dictators, man," please look at my above comment. Real world dictators do not make personal appearances to their still armed, still dangerous subjected people that hate them. gently caress, ignore Dictators, if you saw any US President just running around with no secret service but 2 dudes, they would be deader than door nails in a year, and that's not even someone who's universally hated nor violently murdering random people every time they visit your community. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 21:45
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There's like zero guarantee that "killing neegan" solves anything at all from the perspective of ricks crew. The only odds they can bet on is that the saviours would wipe them out if they did so they do not except carl, because carl is retarded
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Dec 6, 2016 21:48
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Zzulu posted:There's like zero guarantee that "killing neegan" solves anything at all from the perspective of ricks crew. The only odds they can bet on is that the saviours would wipe them out if they did Without Neegan the saviors would probably be a bunch of raping and murdering pack of bandits that just kill everyone, use up everything, then move on to kill some more. Just full Fist of The North Star.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:53
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I think I know why folks like Zzulu say that. They only see what the writers are TRYING to convey and I'm looking at what the writers are actually presenting. They are TRYING to use the logic Zzulu has presented, but the execution is far from it. Negan is not even a tiny, little bit operating like any real world dictator, not even a 3rd world warlord.Zzulu posted:There's like zero guarantee that "killing neegan" solves anything at all from the perspective of ricks crew. While I completely disagree - if you kill Negan and his right hand man the group is likely to tear itself apart - that doesn't matter. Characters want to kill Negan but even if they commit themselves to a suicide-attack on them, they just.. can't shoot him. And he acts like he knows it, i.e., repeatedly arming Rick and Carl while alone with them. In a show about walking corpses the fact Negan doesn't have an assassination attempt every couple days is the most unrealistic thing on it. This has nothing to do with a big-picture debate. It makes EVERYTHING feel empty. I do not give even a little poo poo about Michonne going after Negan, for example, because I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT she won't come anywhere near succeeding and will probably end up repeating the same loop as everyone else. I half expect and episode where she follows him around like a whipped dog while carrying her sword 2' away the whole time. Happy Noodle Boy posted:Without Neegan the saviors would probably be a bunch of raping and murdering pack of bandits that just kill everyone, use up everything, then move on to kill some more. Just full Fist of The North Star. If his Lt. is still around, probably. If not, I can't see them doing anything but turning guns on each other. Most of his army seems to be recruited kind of like Daryl, after all. Most of them do not seem all that psychotic, just cowed. Zzulu posted:Negan made this perfectly clear for Carl when he threatened Daryl if Carl did anything, so Carl did nothing So you're saying that Carl thought it'd be cool to shoot two guards instead of shooting Negan who was whistling at point blank range and just sauntering out there? gently caress, I wouldn't even be calling bullshit if Carl took a shot at him. If Negan's "I'm going to saunter up to you and act like I own you" routine got him a bullet in the arm or even just flung in his general direction, it'd even made his being impressed with Carl work a little better since he'd actually done something impressive, then. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 21:55
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Zzulu posted:the saviours would kill all their friends, that's what eugene was hinting at when they had that discussion in the show That would be kind of counterproductive from the standpoint of you know: waste of bullets as well as hurting your means of resupply.
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Dec 6, 2016 22:47
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Fog Tripper posted:That would be kind of counterproductive from the standpoint of you know: waste of bullets as well as hurting your means of resupply. Nononono, this guy's got it figured out! Did you not see his amazing plan of how every tyrant should've been handled? Flawless.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:08
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As terrible as Negan is, the Saviors have rules. Rules are better than no rules, correct? For example, Negan absolutely abhors sexual violence and will kill his own men that perpetrate against outside groups. He will also melt the faces off people that try to sleep with his wives. The whole "If you killed Negan everyone would be happy" argument is ridiculous. Scary bad people tend to be scared themselves. If you get them in a group working toward a common goal, ie: survival, they can accomplish things. If there is no central leadership, people would split up into packs and take advantage of the weaker ones. More so, if another threat comes along and kills the things keeping your group together, you're going to think that you're next. Specifically, the person who killed The Big Bad would be the primary threat to any person wishing to lead the remaining people. They have to a) make an example out of the killer to deter the next revolution, b) show strength over the others, and c) prove they can protect the group. If Carl shot Negan, he would be dead right now. He should be dead right now. I think you guys are just pissed off because speculation: Negan might actually be a nice guy after all.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:09
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Zzulu posted:why didnt someone just shoot [every tyrant in history] Lots of tyrants have been shot. The ones that haven't probably had smart personal security and didn't constantly swagger in front of people who have the means and desire to kill them.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:14
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Negan keeps a harem of wives that are terrified of him or resent him and look absolutely miserable but go along with it so they don't starve or die or so that their loved ones aren't killed. That's absolutely abuse even if he made a comment about consent so yeah I don't buy that he's a great guy.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:21
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Binary Logic posted:But the rest of Spencer's arc was ridiculous. He randomly ran into the woods. The hunter had written notes of his supply stashes in Latin. And Spencer can read Latin. Of course. This is easily one of the dumbest things I've seen in the show in a long time.  My watching buddy and I were so loving confused the whole time. "Why is he running into the woods? What was that note? Was that Spanish?"And then later: "What the gently caress? Why was that written in Latin? And why does he know how to read Latin? How many people in backwoods Virginia know how to write in loving Latin?" Fog Tripper posted:Yup, I cannot recall what she picked up (revolver?) or it's caliber. But I am pretty damned certain it wasn't a deagle. As far as necessity of having the proper case, powder, primer and such, Eugene would have spent his time better making an ied. It was a little 9mm Beretta or look-alike, iirc. She was popping the casing out of the slide, so definitely wasn't a revolver. But yeah, there's no loving way the casing would have fit, and even if it did, Eugene would still need a properly sized bullet and primer, which there was no way he could have had just lying around, unless he disassembled an already working 9mm round. The powder I'll accept, you can handwave that with "he knows chemistry" which is a bit silly but it's a silly show. The rest bugs me.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:27
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Lycus posted:Lots of tyrants have been shot. The ones that haven't probably had smart personal security and didn't constantly swagger in front of people who have the means and desire to kill them. Yep. I bet you there's not a tyrant in history that ever reached a notable level that hands a loaded weapon to their enemies in rooms alone with them, disarming themselves, and trusts that they'll be cool. Hell just regular leaders are shot all the time. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 23:31
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A True Jar Jar Fan posted:Negan keeps a harem of wives that are terrified of him or resent him and look absolutely miserable but go along with it so they don't starve or die or so that their loved ones aren't killed. That's absolutely abuse even if he made a comment about consent so yeah I don't buy that he's a great guy. Everyone in the group has to pitch in and earn points even just to eat. His wives live for free, are protected specifically by Negan, and there's no reason to think he's laid a hand on any of them. The rule forbids them from returning to their husbands after agreeing to marry Negan. They are not sleeping with Negan to protect their families. They are sleeping with him to protect themselves and not need to earn points. He doesn't even force the decision upon them when they do return to their husbands either. He tells them, either stay with me and nothing will change (although your husband will pay the iron price for sleeping with such a duplicitious person). Or, you go back to your husband, work for points, maybe even working the same job as him. A few people think this meant "working the wall as zombies" but I'm pretty sure he's legit. He does not like violence on women. It might end up being a comic thing though but there might be an example coming up in the next half of the season. edit: Issue 117: "WHAT THE loving gently caress ARE YOU DOING IN HERE?!" "Negan Sir-- I--" "DO YOU REALLY THINK I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THAT? I CAN loving SEE YOU'RE TRYING TO RAPE THIS WOMAN. YOU WERE GOING TO loving RAPE THIS WOMAN, WEREN'T YOU?!" "..." "WHAT THE gently caress ARE WE DOING HERE? WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO ACHIEVE?! FOR gently caress'S SAKE DON'T ANSWER THAT EITHER... THERE'S NO loving WAY YOU HAVE A GODDAMN CLUE WHAT THE BIGGER loving PICTURE IS. THIS WAR, HOWEVER LONG IT LASTS, IS A MEANS TO AN END. WHEN THE DUST SETTLES AND WE'VE WON... ULTIMATELY, WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE! WE WANT A COMMUNITY THAT CAN ACCOMPLISH THINGS TOGETHER! THAT HEALING CANNOT BEGIN IF WE HAVE SUNK TO SUCH... IN-loving-HUMAN LEVELS. REPEAT AFTER ME: WE. DON'T. RAPE." "We don't rape." "David... This is unacceptable. Rape is against the rules here. You remember the rules, don't you? You've really crossed a line here, you stupid gently caress." "I'm sorry sir." SHUKK (David getting kilt) To the girl David was harassing; "I'm sorry you had to see that. I really want you to understand... We're not monsters..." Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 23:39
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AbrahamLincolnLog posted:This is easily one of the dumbest things I've seen in the show in a long time. His mom was a Congresswoman, he's probably better educated than most. Can't help you with the rest though.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:06
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Yea, Latin is a still a big thing in higher tier post-secondary, moreso if you're in a more classic liberal arts or law school feeder programme. He's the son of a politician, so chances are... Chad of the Beltway knowing Latin ain't exactly a stretch.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:20
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Any other show would've made it some easy-to-decrypt code or mirror-written message. As for the rest of what went wrong with that scene, the writers were probably thinking that the scene where Rosita went into the woods to find a Savior gun went so well. They decided to do the same scene twice like someone telling the same joke again.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:42
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Eyochigan posted:They are sleeping with him to protect themselves and not need to earn points. Yeah that's a pretty screwed up system and a humongous abuse of power and not a Good Guy Thing To Do.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:56
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It is screwed up that they would betray their husband to get a free pass in life. Negan could make demands like he does with everyone else but he gives them food and shelter. It's like taking advantage of a stripper with low self confidence, except the zombie apocalypse version.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:03
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ElectricSheep posted:His mom was a Congresswoman, he's probably better educated than most. The backwards hick was the hunter in the treestand.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:05
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Immortan Joe was a nice guy too.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:06
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Eyochigan posted:It's like taking advantage of a stripper with low self confidence, except the zombie apocalypse version. Wow. I actually think the wives issue is in character for Negan and not a bad writing choice. It does make him a piece of poo poo though!
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Dec 7, 2016 01:12
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I think he treats men a lot worse. They work for points, they have to kill people and rob them, and I believe if they leave, they are hunted down aswell. They are the first people to die when people like Carl want to get revenge on Negan. They have no choice but to do terrible things in order to survive, let alone eat. I'm curious what the women(independent of negan) do, since the group that Negan used to ambush Rick was mostly men. But you also see women at the satellite station, so some of them are at least armed. They don't seem to be conscripted in the same sense. If the choice was to do terrible things, or to eat and live free of that, is it any wonder that he has so many wives? Yes it's hosed up, but it's obviously a very compelling offer.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:19
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Yea coercing someone to have sex with you against their will is like the definition of rape. And the line "I could even put you all on the same job" HEAVILY implies zombie wall. "One way or another, everyone works for me." No, the person who has beaten in the skulls of ~50 people is not a "good guy".
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Dec 7, 2016 01:22
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Eyochigan posted:I think he treats men a lot worse. They work for points, they have to kill people and rob them, and I believe if they leave, they are hunted down aswell. They are the first people to die when people like Carl want to get revenge on Negan. They have no choice but to do terrible things in order to survive, let alone eat. I'm curious what the women(independent of negan) do, since the group that Negan used to ambush Rick was mostly men. But you also see women at the satellite station, so some of them are at least armed. They don't seem to be conscripted in the same sense. Some women are not into men. 
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Dec 7, 2016 01:25
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Stickarts posted:Yea coercing someone to have sex with you against their will is like the definition of rape. He's not, but he thinks he is.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:29
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I guess this is part of the problem with reading comic books, everyone has their own interpretation. and then the TV show comes and pollutes it even more. Special treatment isn't coercement in my opinion. The choice is to work for him, or not to work for him, just be his wife. If you're a decent person I think working would make sense. Why should you be the exception? There is speculation somewhere that the origin of Negan's wives was actually to protect them from the rest of the group. Something like they were being victimized by their men, and Negan came along and declared one or more women as his wife so nobody would mess with them. It kept being a problem so he kept making more of them his wives. but don't take that as fact because I don't remember where it was from. probably reddit. edit: ^^ I think that's precisely it, Fitz. edit2: wife origin. I remember now, I think this is legit or one of them needed medicine and couldn't afford it, and he wanted to give it to her, but couldn't because it would show the rest of the group that Negan disregards the rules for specific people. so he made her his wife so they couldn't say anything when he treated her. Eyochigan fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 01:31
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"If you gently caress only me I won't brand your husband's face with a red hot iron" isn't "special treatment"  . I think this is one of those scenarios that says more about the viewer than the scenario.Negan's version of choice is "do what I want you to do or suffer/die". He has made that abundantly clear. I mean, I'm a fan of cute and stupid little theories about TV shows but this one doesn't haul a lot of water.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:38
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Stickarts posted:"If you gently caress only me I won't brand your husband's face with a red hot iron" isn't "special treatment" Critical issue here is that you have it backwards. 1) Return to your husband, work for points, no more exceptions. 2) Stay with me, but your husband will be branded (He can't punish her, but he can punish the man/her emotional wellbeing by being violent towards the man she showed affection toward, thus discouraging it) The latter part of 2 is rather monsterous. But so is betraying your husband for points. It's an ironic sense of justice. "I didn't burn your face.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:42
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Yea the illusion of choice, wherein the options are "live" or "die" still means coercion still means rape still means I can't believe I have to be explaining why Negan is the bad guy here still means good god what is wrong with my life.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:46
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