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JcDent posted:Speaking of Mongols, what about Mongol PTSD? If the Nazis got sadbrains from manually killing people, wouldn't the Mongols get the same from all the manuals slaughter of civilians they did? It's possible, but if they did, there wouldn't be many records of it. The mongols were barely literate anyways; I certainly wouldn't expect them to write about something they'd think of as a weakness. Another thing different about the Mongols is that while the nazis came from an orderly civilization beforehand, the mongols were judging all their actions against the backdrop of brutal living out on the steppe. Many of the atrocities they committed were against soft farmers who would never have to sell their son for a deer carcass like Genghis Khan's grandfather did. It's possible that kind of totally alien background may have distanced them enough from their victims that they'd have no problem like with colonialism. It's hard to say.
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Dec 7, 2016 08:03
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bewbies posted:I want this thread's take:
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Dec 7, 2016 08:41
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bewbies posted:I want this thread's take: Hulk Hogan, because he was a real American
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Dec 7, 2016 10:54
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Tevery Best posted:Hulk Hogan, because he was a real American Don't make me call the WHOO train 
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Dec 7, 2016 11:00
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what ya gonna do brother when HULKAMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOU
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Dec 7, 2016 11:24
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's possible, but if they did, there wouldn't be many records of it. The mongols were barely literate anyways; I certainly wouldn't expect them to write about something they'd think of as a weakness. Dan Carlin talked about this in one of his podcasts. If his sources are right, the Mongols apparently didn't even see Non-Mongols as real people. More like weird, Mongol-like muppets walking around.
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Dec 7, 2016 11:24
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I suppose given the historical treatment of people who don't live in stone cities by those who do, it would not be surprising for it to work the other way around.
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Dec 7, 2016 12:28
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We see them as dirty savages, they see us as soft, weak cattle that produce gold and rugs instead of milk and wool.
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Dec 7, 2016 12:54
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Is that why Kublai Khan got poo poo from the other Khans for Sinicizing? He turned into a city dweller? Like a zombie!
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Dec 7, 2016 13:22
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it's also worth remembering that alcoholism has been a national pastime for Mongols for a very long time
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Dec 7, 2016 15:36
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Wouldn't be the first time that soldiers were trained to dehumanize their targets, butLibluini posted:Dan Carlin talked about this in one of his podcasts. If his sources are right, the Mongols apparently didn't even see Non-Mongols as real people. More like weird, Mongol-like muppets walking around. This is potentially a big if. Sources or Dan's interpretation of those sources.
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Dec 7, 2016 16:20
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Societies can be inconsistent about dehumanization too. During colonization, there were a lot of people who sympathized with the native americans despite the normal policy of dehumanization, and it was the same with slavery.OwlFancier posted:I suppose given the historical treatment of people who don't live in stone cities by those who do, it would not be surprising for it to work the other way around. Nomadic peoples on the periphery of society likewise have a long history of raiding settlements, so it's not like causing devastation like they did under Genghis was so much a new thing aside from the scale. So much of how the Mongols operated seems just so repugnant. They caused so much devastation, killed so many, destroyed so much, consistently lied and broke negotiated promises, giving no hope to those who couldn't stand against them, and then when they felt they needed to make statements, they got creative. Slaughtering what's left of a defeated army wasn't enough of a statement, so they have to come up with all sorts of wacky and zany ways to push the boundaries of disgust and horror of what man can do to another man. I couldn't make it to the end of Dan Carlin's series. The bit where the mongols ate dinner atop the bodies of their defeated, but not dead enemies just...killed my enthusiasm to know more.
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Dec 7, 2016 17:14
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Libluini posted:Dan Carlin talked about this in one of his podcasts. If his sources are right, the Mongols apparently didn't even see Non-Mongols as real people. More like weird, Mongol-like muppets walking around. Wait, does anyone here not see his/her self as a weird Mongol-like muppet?
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Dec 7, 2016 17:18
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hogmartin posted:Wait, does anyone here not see his/her self as a weird Mongol-like muppet? I used to see other people as muppets but now have the problem under control thanks to therapy and medication
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Dec 7, 2016 17:33
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I see myself as a truscale Space Marine, helmet and all
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Dec 7, 2016 17:59
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We can humanize cars and dogs and cacti and weather phenomena so attempting to dehumanize an actual human should only be able to get you that far.
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Dec 7, 2016 18:08
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aphid_licker posted:We can humanize cars and dogs and cacti and weather phenomena so attempting to dehumanize an actual human should only be able to get you that far. You'd be surprised
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Dec 7, 2016 18:14
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aphid_licker posted:We can humanize cars and dogs and cacti and weather phenomena so attempting to dehumanize an actual human should only be able to get you that far. Counterpoint: slavery.
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Dec 7, 2016 18:55
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who here likes the early modern? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nGG8fNgLKQ
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Dec 7, 2016 19:02
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Kellsterik posted:What would be the advantage of legalizing counterfeiting? Is it just admitting defeat and not bothering with wasting resources on enforcement? Well, technically, they called it "giving up the state monopoly on minting coins". But it's a combination of Laissez-Faire neo-Confucians rising in the court, taking one look at the obscene mess that was Tang monetary and tax policy, and telling the emperor that the free market has too be better than the current situation. Even though the Tang dynasty was one of the golden ages of Chinese history, Tang state finances were always a mess, especially after the An Lushan Rebellion. But it's basically just admitting defeat and not bothering with wasting resources on enforcement (typically locating and executing counterfeiters). Of course, this should all be taken with a grain of salt, since it mostly comes from the old Cambridge History of China Vol 2. Maybe more modern research has revealed new insights that I'm totally wrong. Some reviews of the book say that they give too much credence to the old Chinese historians and their biases. golden bubble fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 19:07
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A civil war that kills of half* your tax base certainly messes up your finances. *estimate based on Tang census figures
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Dec 7, 2016 19:28
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ponzicar posted:Are we talking people with direct power, or people who had a huge influence on the future? If it's the latter, then I'm going to go with whoever it was that first figured out agriculture. I thought the theory is that agriculture was a gradual development rather than just an invention? Like, one generation people notice that areas where they ate had food next year, then people started burying seeds in a place and slowly became semi-nomadic before gradually moving to stationary agriculture.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:34
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Elyv posted:I thought the theory is that agriculture was a gradual development rather than just an invention? Like, one generation people notice that areas where they ate had food next year, then people started burying seeds in a place and slowly became semi-nomadic before gradually moving to stationary agriculture. I think it starts with you protecting that bush with the tasty blue things.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:45
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Elyv posted:I thought the theory is that agriculture was a gradual development rather than just an invention? Like, one generation people notice that areas where they ate had food next year, then people started burying seeds in a place and slowly became semi-nomadic before gradually moving to stationary agriculture. It's interesting that a site in Turkey suggests becoming stationary came first. A tribe found a particular "magic" place that had good food resources available all year round. They seem to have developed a fairly large settlement based entirely on hunting and gathering, and deliberately planting seeds became a way of being able to stabilize their food supply and stay put.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:45
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sullat posted:A civil war that kills of half* your tax base certainly messes up your finances. The census was the basis of tax collecting anyways, so even if a lot of those people were displaced or otherwise, that's a pretty substantial decline in the state's income. I've heard that the later Song dynasty was supposedly the most advanced and complicated economy in the world before the modern era, though I don't know how you measure that or what the historic consensus is.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:46
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I imagine counterfeiting is less of a threat to stability when the counterfeit money is still made of precious metals. And yeah the post An Lushan census is probably more indicative of huge swathes of the country being left effectively ungoverned than actually dead, but the actual death toll would still be horrible enough.
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Dec 7, 2016 20:04
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P-Mack posted:I imagine counterfeiting is less of a threat to stability when the counterfeit money is still made of precious metals. Counterpoint - you can't shave bits off of a paper note and then reassemble it into another, new paper note. You also have to worry about debasing with non-precious metals, the British crown had to totally revamp their currency in the 17th century due to rampant debasement making it basically worthless. OTOH being able to mine precious metals, turn it straight into money and then spending all on war has its own problems too 
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Dec 7, 2016 20:09
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MikeCrotch posted:Counterpoint - you can't shave bits off of a paper note and then reassemble it into another, new paper note. You also have to worry about debasing with non-precious metals, the British crown had to totally revamp their currency in the 17th century due to rampant debasement making it basically worthless. Spain's problems were less about digging up metal and turning it into money and more about getting loans based on how much you're planning to mine next year, and then yields not being what you expected.
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Dec 7, 2016 20:14
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golden bubble posted:Laissez-Faire neo-Confucians
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Dec 7, 2016 20:16
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Today I have discovered by political identity.
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Dec 7, 2016 20:18
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Cyrano4747 posted:Spain's problems were less about digging up metal and turning it into money and more about getting loans based on how much you're planning to mine next year, and then yields not being what you expected. "What do you mean we're out of silver already! IT'S THE NEW WORLD?!"
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Dec 7, 2016 20:56
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Cyrano4747 posted:Spain's problems were less about digging up metal and turning it into money and more about getting loans based on how much you're planning to mine next year, and then yields not being what you expected. Just curious, why didn't the Spanish ever debase their coins to try and deal with their bad economics? afaik the 8 real coin had the same silver content for like 4 centuries.
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Dec 7, 2016 21:08
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P-Mack posted:I imagine counterfeiting is less of a threat to stability when the counterfeit money is still made of precious metals. Imagine trying to pay for something, and then having to sit down and debate extensively the value of the money you are paying with Britain's coinage problems did start the field of economics, I suppose; "bad money drives out the good" might be the first proper economic fact
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Dec 7, 2016 21:10
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Just curious, why didn't the Spanish ever debase their coins to try and deal with their bad economics? afaik the 8 real coin had the same silver content for like 4 centuries. https://books.google.de/books?id=X4...20money&f=false
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Dec 7, 2016 21:23
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Nebakenezzer posted:Imagine trying to pay for something, and then having to sit down and debate extensively the value of the money you are paying with Sounds like a pain the rear end I'd rather let the private sector sort out than busy my laissez-faire neo-confucian hands with. (These hands have very long fingernails.) If I remember correctly even officially minted coins could fluctuate as emperors would often declare specific coins from previous emperors invalid for whatever reason then revoke it later, so the actual value of any coin would float between zero and face value based on rumors and speculation .
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Dec 7, 2016 21:23
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A Serbian king is mentioned in Dante's Inferno, for counterfeiting Venetian coins. I don't know how true the explanation I've heard is, but Serbia mined a metric fuckton of silver at the time (gold too, but not relevant for this), and apparently Milutin tried to negotiate with Venice to produce similar coinage in order to help ease trade, and when they refused to make a deal, he just shrugged and minted the coins anyway. 
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Dec 7, 2016 22:11
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my dad posted:A Serbian king is mentioned in Dante's Inferno, for counterfeiting Venetian coins. So he minted coins from silver which were similar enough to Venetian coins to pass muster under the metallic money standard of the day, but since the minting wasn't OK'd by the Venetian wiseguys they considered them counterfeit? I'm assuming the popular tone was just "lol ok yeah I'll just turn down perfectly decent silver that sounds perfectly reasonable for me to do and not just sell it to the jewelers and artists who will just melt it down anyway"
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Dec 7, 2016 22:29
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FAUXTON posted:So he minted coins from silver which were similar enough to Venetian coins to pass muster under the metallic money standard of the day, but since the minting wasn't OK'd by the Venetian wiseguys they considered them counterfeit? I think he may have actually ended up minting coins with slightly more silver than the Venetian ones since Serbia was leaking silver out of its rear end, so to speak, so when compared, it was the Venetian coins that looked like cheap knockoffs. That having been said, this is something I've overheard a long time ago, and I have zero idea if it makes any sense whatsoever, so take it with a pinch of salt.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:34
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Precious metals can be debased for counterfeit coins, or counterfeit coins could just be made smaller than the proper versions. Another method was to clip the edges off of real coins to get more metal for counterfeiting or just to have some of the base metal handy. Allegedly that's why most coins have ridged edges, so coins that had been clipped couldn't be passed off.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:24
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Do they still mine gold in Serbia? I know in EU4 (accurate historical facts here) Serbia has a gold mine, but whats the history behind that? And sitting on a gold mine sounds like it would give you huge regional power: did it?
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Dec 8, 2016 01:36
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