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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Those are just Eisenhower's top three. For formal dress, he'd wear all of them. It's a little bit of a misrepresentation, but the regular Army awards the Army Service Ribbon for the achievement of being in the Army. It's an automatic award for graduating basic training. You get an award for being in the Army, you get another award just for being in the Army during a war, you get an award if you go overseas, you get an award if you go to a particular theater, you get an award if you stay in long enough, they have a medal for good conduct. I've seen people awarded Bronze Stars without Valor device for just doing their jobs on a deployment. The point is the Army hands out awards like candy and has gotten worse as it has gone along.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:25
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comingafteryouall posted:How old is your nephew? I work with youth at all levels (through college) and this is definitely true once they get above 7-8 but younger than that and most kids don't have any clue what is actually happening while they're playing sports. Most of their focus - and coaches' - is on personal improvement. The competition, such that it is, is mostly based on that rather than on winning the matches they have once in a while. The kids are divided up into four skill-based buckets, and the kids want to get good enough that they're advanced up to the next rank. My wife and I just want them to try hard, pay attention, and have fun. Because seriously, we kind of still can't believe they're actually playing ice hockey and proud that they are doing something so difficult. Give them a participation trophy if you want; we don't care as long as they're learning and enjoying it.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:31
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dwarf74 posted:I have two boys in ice hockey (ages 5 & 6) who've been in the local program for 2-3 years. And yeah, it's really only this year that both of them are starting to 'get' the idea that it's a team game, and that you are playing against another team. Keeping track of everything you have to do - skate, watch the puck, hold the stick, etc. - is enough that stuff like 'remember which goal you are trying to score on' and 'remember who's on your team' is just a bridge too far. Yeah this is a good post. A well-run youth sports team has the focuses that you're talking about, developing skills needed to actually play the game competitively when they're older. The people who complain about participation trophies are the biggest pains in the rear end for coaches. They want it to be super competitive, but good youth coaches are thinking about the long-term development of the kids on the team. Maybe I don't know the full extent though, I work in a sport that doesn't really do participation trophies. But we do acknowledge the younger kids! Kit Walker posted:He's 9, so that fits your experience. I mean, if the kid is too young to even understand what's happening when they play then a participation or lack thereof isn't going to change anything in any case, is it? They still understand they're getting something from playing the sport. They're just not good enough at the sport to connect their or their teammates' actions to winning or losing a competition.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:44
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I was on a judo camp that had the opposite of participation trophies. After the event was done and I had worked really hard. They started handing out awards for accomplishments during the weekend. Turns out it was just for the adults. The rewards were all just different types of alcohol. But I started smelling bullshit when someone got an award for "Latest arrival by car"
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Dec 7, 2016 20:01
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Duncan Doenitz posted:Good Conduct medals and the corresponding service stripes are probably the ultimate form of this. Oddly enough, out of all the ribbons I have, good conduct ain't one. I caught an Article 15 every year like clockwork.
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Dec 7, 2016 20:15
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SimonCat posted:It's a little bit of a misrepresentation, but the regular Army awards the Army Service Ribbon for the achievement of being in the Army. It's an automatic award for graduating basic training. Turns out medals are an easy way to boost morale, hell I think the Bronze Star was invented to boost morale during WW2. I'm not sure if my grandfather got his from anything special or because afaik they basically gave them out to every combat unit at one point.
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Dec 7, 2016 20:20
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I think a lot of this boomer stuff is just projection on their part. Maybe they had lovely childhoods where they were physically and mentally abused by their parents and peers. Some of them won't want to accept this is lovely and so this existence becomes their baseline and they are hostile to the idea that anyone might think differently. Combine this with the fact that humans tend to hold onto positive memories and ignore or forget painful ones. Keep in mind helicopter parents were often Boomers too, for the same reasons. It's not unusual for people to either double down on their lovely experiences or try to do the exact opposite.
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Dec 7, 2016 21:01
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SimonCat posted:It's a little bit of a misrepresentation, but the regular Army awards the Army Service Ribbon for the achievement of being in the Army. It's an automatic award for graduating basic training. Eh as long as medals are worth promotion points this is going to happen, because any stick-up-the-rear end commander who tries to protect the awe and mystique of the Army Achievement Medal or whatever ("doing your job on deployment isn't an achievement!") is only going to gently caress over the careers of the people under his command. Think of it as a "+X to your promotion packet" ribbon if you want, that's all it is. There's still the awards for valor for the super-special people. No one really cares that Bronze Stars without the V device are common, most of that poo poo is just to impress civilians with a rack full of ribbons and to distinguish the people who went on deployments and did poo poo from the people who stayed home and jacked it at promotion time.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:11
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jivjov posted:There's a balance to be struck. I'm not saying every single participant in an event needs to get a big shiny trophy or prize or whatever...but even saying "hey, you came out and gave it your best effort, good job" is still a 'participation trophy'; just an intangible one This here, is why kids born in the 80's and beyond, grew up to be entitled fucks. "I deserve something for showing up!"
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Dec 7, 2016 22:41
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Dalael posted:This here, is why kids born in the 80's and beyond, grew up to be entitled fucks. So encouraging kids, or anyone really, to get out and take part in stuff is inherently bad? I'm not saying that we should lavish praise and heap rewards on someone for bothering to get out of bed, but what's so heinous about expressing the sentiment of "hey good job for at least putting in the effort"?
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Dec 7, 2016 22:43
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jivjov posted:So encouraging kids, or anyone really, to get out and take part in stuff is inherently bad? I never had a participation trophy in my entire life, and neither did anyone in the generation born before mine. It didnt stop us from doing poo poo and its retarded to think that it would. I don't remember the world grinding to a halt because some kid didn't get a ribbon that said, "I was there!" Stop forcing children to build a shrine to mediocrity.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:47
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Dalael posted:I never had a participation trophy in my entire life, and neither did anyone in the generation born before mine. It didnt stop us from doing poo poo and its retarded to think that it would. 1) survivorship bias is a poor argument 2) ableist slurs aren't necessary 3) I never once said we should reward merely being present. Instead, my argument has been to at least recognize and acknowledge effort put forth, even if victory was not attained. Teach kids that not everyone wins, but that effort is important.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:53
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Dalael posted:I never had a participation trophy in my entire life, and neither did anyone in the generation born before mine. It didnt stop us from doing poo poo and its retarded to think that it would. Kids go out and have fun. Those who are competitive know what the participation trophy's worth. Those who are not are just there to get something nice/get some exercise/have fun. You don't need to heap lavish praise but acknowledgement goes a long way for kids. Also I find it really sad you apparently didn't get that. sorry bro, that sucks 
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Dec 7, 2016 22:55
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Panfilo posted:I think a lot of this boomer stuff is just projection on their part. Maybe they had lovely childhoods where they were physically and mentally abused by their parents and peers. Some of them won't want to accept this is lovely and so this existence becomes their baseline and they are hostile to the idea that anyone might think differently. Combine this with the fact that humans tend to hold onto positive memories and ignore or forget painful ones. Dalael posted:I never had a participation trophy in my entire life, and neither did anyone in the generation born before mine. It didnt stop us from doing poo poo and its retarded to think that it would. My hot take here is jivjov is just saying encouragement is good, and you're a crazy forwarded political email.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:01
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SSNeoman posted:Kids go out and have fun. Those who are competitive know what the participation trophy's worth. Those who are not are just there to get something nice/get some exercise/have fun. You don't need to heap lavish praise but acknowledgement goes a long way for kids. I'm fine with encouragement and all. You say good job, you tried and gave it your best. You take them out for ice cream. All that is fine. But participation trophy's are just sad really.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:07
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It's true, most of that generation wasn't involved in organized sports leagues from a young age. Maybe our mistake has been putting 5-7 year olds in competitive environments before they've developed enough to be competitive in any meaningful sense. Did anyone get an actual trophy as a participation trophy?
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Dec 7, 2016 23:08
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comingafteryouall posted:It's true, most of that generation wasn't involved in organized sports leagues from a young age.  At that age, kids should be given a ball, 2 goals and who cares which goal they actually score in. Let kids be kids and let them have fun.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:12
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When they turn 10 tho, pump them full of drugs and scream at them that you'll only love them as long as they keep scoring.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:12
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I got one and it ruined my entire life. Now I'm sucking mulatto dick under the overpass for high fives and approval. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 7, 2016 23:13
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Dalael posted:I'm fine with encouragement and all. You say good job, you tried and gave it your best. You take them out for ice cream. All that is fine. But participation trophy's are just sad really. That stuff literally is the participation reward. Encouragement, maybe ice cream.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:15
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comingafteryouall posted:It's true, most of that generation wasn't involved in organized sports leagues from a young age. I don't actually remember getting a participation trophy in anything I did. Even when I did karate from elementary school into middle school, you had to be able to complete basic katas and competency tests to advance to the next belt rank.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:16
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jivjov posted:That stuff literally is the participation reward. Encouragement, maybe ice cream. Yeah. I'm fine with that. But when you start doling out trophy's and ribbons, that's where I personally draw the line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL3Z_L4xnnA This poo poo is what i'm talking about.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:19
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I got some participation trophies, and some real ones. They're a good way to commemorate an event. "Remember that year you spent trying to play basketball and being miserable at it? Good job on sticking it out for the entire year and not giving up." There are a lot of things in life where attendance is 80% of what counts. In the other political threads I talk about how pretty much anyone could climb at least a few levels within the Democratic party just by showing up to every meeting. Going further, I'm friends with a number of people who have run for office in lopsided elections and got their butts kicked. The "if you didn't win, you lost" mentality would suggest that their actions had no value. But by running, by getting involved and canvassing, they increased turnout in their districts, and pushed forward other candidates and propositions that may have lost otherwise. I know that across the country, there were a handful of races where Hillary Clinton won the area, but Republicans ran unopposed. Maybe people from that area needed more participation trophies because they literally would have won by simply showing up.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:23
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VitalSigns posted:Eh as long as medals are worth promotion points this is going to happen, because any stick-up-the-rear end commander who tries to protect the awe and mystique of the Army Achievement Medal or whatever ("doing your job on deployment isn't an achievement!") is only going to gently caress over the careers of the people under his command. Think of it as a "+X to your promotion packet" ribbon if you want, that's all it is. I think you're missing my point. I'd rather get rid of all of that and base promotions on something other than chintzy awards. True that none of it matters outside of promotion points or discounts on car registration.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:25
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Ashcans posted:As someone mentioned above, what you are actually supposed to do is praise kids for their effort and encourage them to challenge and persevere. Praising them for being smart/adept/successful is actually a bad strategy, because if kids learn that the most important thing is to win then they will focus on winning - which can actually mean aiming for lower-skill tasks they know they can do perfectly instead of much harder ones that they will possibly fail. A kid (or person) who is focused on success can learn to be very averse to testing their limits, because they determine that it's better to make sure they keep winning at the same thing than to accept new or different tasks where they may fail. By praising and rewarding effort and determination, you encourage kids to keep pushing their limits and try new things, because they value challenges and effort rather than positive results. I can't tell if these are references or if I've just been playing too much Undertale. lancemantis posted:Turns out medals are an easy way to boost morale, hell I think the Bronze Star was invented to boost morale during WW2. I'm not sure if my grandfather got his from anything special or because afaik they basically gave them out to every combat unit at one point. I can kind of see getting an award for "participating" in an event that could kill you. PneumonicBook posted:My hot take here is jivjov is just saying encouragement is good, and you're a crazy forwarded political email. That's about right. Dalael recently went on a long accelerationist rant about how the U.S. should be destroyed in a nuclear war to make the world a better place, and when people suggested that might be a bit extreme, he pulled the "just trolling" argument. He actually said "Dance, puppets, dance." Don't encourage him.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:27
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Dalael posted:Yeah. I'm fine with that. But when you start doling out trophy's and ribbons, that's where I personally draw the line. This is obviously hyperbolic for the sake of comedy, but what's wrong with celebrating a child being a somewhat mediocre jack of all trades? Kids have a long life ahead, no need to expect them to pick one thing as a passion and drive towards ultimate victory. In the movie, didn't he end up having an extremely high aptitude in medicine, and decide to go into nursing because it's his passion?
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Dec 7, 2016 23:31
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:This is obviously hyperbolic for the sake of comedy, but what's wrong with celebrating a child being a somewhat mediocre jack of all trades? Kids have a long life ahead, no need to expect them to pick one thing as a passion and drive towards ultimate victory. Could be. I don't remember at least half of this movie. I just think that some people go overboard with this stuff. If you teach your kid that you're entitled to something regardless of your performance, you're just breeding the next batch of government bureaucrats imho.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:33
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VitalSigns posted:Eh as long as medals are worth promotion points this is going to happen, because any stick-up-the-rear end commander who tries to protect the awe and mystique of the Army Achievement Medal or whatever ("doing your job on deployment isn't an achievement!") is only going to gently caress over the careers of the people under his command. Think of it as a "+X to your promotion packet" ribbon if you want, that's all it is. For example: https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics NSPE Code of Ethics posted:Engineers shall continue their professional development throughout their careers and should keep current in their specialty fields by engaging in professional practice, participating in continuing education courses, reading in the technical literature, and attending professional meetings and seminars. Can we say "participation points", boys and girls?  I mean hell, I burnt out of IT because I got tired of renewing my certifications out of pocket, and then realized that most non-IT fields actually just shovel free credits at you for showing up to hand out business cards and talk to the local competition.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:33
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comingafteryouall posted:Yeah this is a good post. A well-run youth sports team has the focuses that you're talking about, developing skills needed to actually play the game competitively when they're older. The people who complain about participation trophies are the biggest pains in the rear end for coaches. They want it to be super competitive, but good youth coaches are thinking about the long-term development of the kids on the team. We are worried that older groups will be crazier. Dalael posted:This here, is why kids born in the 80's and beyond, grew up to be entitled fucks. 
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Dec 7, 2016 23:43
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dwarf74 posted:It's almost set up right now to explicitly discourage that level of competition. Team games are fairly rare and mostly at the end of a season. I'm a really bad poster, and I make no apologies for it, goon sir.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:48
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coyo7e posted:Can we say "participation points", boys and girls? I'm sort of a programmer and I literally flat out tell my bosses IT training is just a scam to give training course companies and/or vendors free money (there are probably some exceptions like Cisco network certifications and DBA training). Like, I work with a document content management system made by a local Cleveland company that I know better than the company's help desk, yet they charge $2,500 per person for a 5-day in-house class, some of which are required just to talk with their help desk about certain issues. I've told my company just give me $1,250 and I'll stay home a week cause it's the same drat thing. I'd much rather show up and shmooze, honestly. Talking with other trainees at lunch who use the software teaches me more than the class ever could.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:30
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This is anecdotal, but the only people I've ever seen say participation trophies give people a sense of lazy entitlement are people who proudly boast they never received one. In fact, I've only ever seen one person who received participation trophies say that they are a bad idea - and they were arguing that it actually makes you not trust anyone giving you praise (since you'd get praise just for showing up) and consequently shatters your self-confidence.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:45
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Dalael posted:I'm a really bad poster, and I make no apologies for it, goon sir. True. SA doesn't give participation trophies, and you don't deserve one. I got a total of one "participation ribbon" in my life. Something for a novice debate/forensics meet my freshman year in high school. I displayed it with all the others I got in order...but I cared a lot more about the semi-finals, finals, pins, and letters I got after that. Life is like that, though. I mean, really, my job where most people make 40-60K will put up with almost anything you do, as long as you show up on time most days and generally get along with people. Competence is secondary to responsibility and not being a total jerk.
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Dec 8, 2016 01:23
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Joshmo posted:I'm sort of a programmer and I literally flat out tell my bosses IT training is just a scam to give training course companies and/or vendors free money (there are probably some exceptions like Cisco network certifications and DBA training). Like, I work with a document content management system made by a local Cleveland company that I know better than the company's help desk, yet they charge $2,500 per person for a 5-day in-house class, some of which are required just to talk with their help desk about certain issues. I've told my company just give me $1,250 and I'll stay home a week cause it's the same drat thing.  If you cannot convince your employer to assist you with time off and/or money to pay for your certs -run far and run fast if you can possibly afford to because you WILL end up with a lot of folks down the line busting your balls on why you didn't renew your Network+ certs every time they faded - out of pocket, studying in your own free time. It's lovely as gently caress. But now I understand why all the scientists at the last place I worked, kept rolling across country to attend conferences and retreats and poo poo, and why people have 2+ page lists of "training seminars" they attended, tacked onto the rear end-end of their resume and linkedin profiles. It's all bullshit, but if you don't rub a little of it on your resume nobody from outside of your field will ever take you seriously!  Tenebrais posted:This is anecdotal, but the only people I've ever seen say participation trophies give people a sense of lazy entitlement are people who proudly boast they never received one. Sounds a lot like brownie-points for the weakest kids on the team, to me. 
coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 01:39
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I got participation trophies! They complement the taller ones quite nicely. 
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Dec 8, 2016 01:47
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Shangri-Law School posted:I got participation trophies! They complement the taller ones quite nicely. I also ran the table for like 4 years a row with my scout troop in "Camporee" which was a winter-based obstacle course competition involving a myriad of "games" to participate in, from carrying your sled and team over a chasm, to fake first aid, to flapjack flipping and knot tying. My troop won EVERY year that we participated, as long as I was with them.. I even got badly injured the final year and won the knot-tying competition despite being tied to the dogsled and towed around the course after some kids let it run into a tree while I was riding on the back and flipped over it. But the trophy I'm proudest of is honestly my 3rd place county mental math champ award, because that poo poo was hard as gently caress, and they threw problems at me that I'd never even imagined before I was given 90 seconds to deal with them with a middle-school maths education. I'm also extraordinarily proud of a hat I got for being on a local pool hall's league team one season - we lost badly but I held a 73% win ratio for the entire season - against players twice my age and experience who were honestly better but weren't as good at the head-game and defensive half of the game. Winning isn't everything, it's what you get out. But nobody but the participants can ever understand that so people who never did what you went through, will never understand and/or respect it.. Kind of like how I feel that the Army's Participation Award for finishing boot camp is bullshit, or why you deserve a bronze star for being a radioman on a deployent... 
coyo7e fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 01:52
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VitalSigns posted:any stick-up-the-rear end commander who tries to protect the awe and mystique of the Army Achievement Medal or whatever ("doing your job on deployment isn't an achievement!") is only going to gently caress over the careers of the people under his command. Think of it as a "+X to your promotion packet" ribbon if you want, that's all it is. I got screwed out of an Air Force Achievement Medal. My Supervisor when I deployed didn't think that people "should get medals for doing their job" but that loving rear end in a top hat made sure he got his Air Force Commendation Medal when he left.
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Dec 8, 2016 02:11
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Dalael posted:I never had a participation trophy in my entire life, and neither did anyone in the generation born before mine. It didnt stop us from doing poo poo and its retarded to think that it would. Your generation got participation middle class jobs. The sooner your generation is fertilizer the better it is for all involved parties.
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Dec 8, 2016 02:14
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In the Navy, the guy signing off on my first evaluation had a policy of never giving above "Promotable" for someone's first evaluation. That score doesn't go away for future evaluations, its like trying to get valedictorian with a C on your report card.
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Dec 8, 2016 02:21
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Mr. Belding posted:Your generation got participation middle class jobs. The sooner your generation is fertilizer the better it is for all involved parties. I'm actually a 80's kid. I just don't consider myself part of the 80's generation because I'm just as bitter and angry as Lewis Black.
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Dec 8, 2016 02:25
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