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Celery Jello posted:the_democratic_party_1980_to_2016.txt The more educated and informed people get the more they fracture. The smallest difference in opinion becomes a mole hill Uneducated people are sheep and follow the herd and the leaders
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Dec 7, 2016 23:02
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BarbarianElephant posted:Like, when did this happen outside of your fevered imagination? Agreed. One thing i learned from this election is a politician needs to lie to win. The best conman becomes president The dnc leadership need to back the gently caress off. I laughed at the gop circus show of 17 primary candidates. But that allowed the people to pick their poison conman. The best conman won from that 17 Democrats cleared the field and presented their most qualified candidate. But the voters dont want the most qualified candidate. They want the best conman and we didnt give them one to pick from. If u want to win in 2020. Throw ur youngest, prettiest face on the stage and let the people choose their champion. That includes celebrities like stephen colbert, jon stewart, beyonce Public service. Ur past record dont matter. The only thing that matters is charisma and how big a promise lie u can make
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Dec 7, 2016 23:16
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Crowsbeak posted:I thought you said polls were not reliable? They are reliable. Nationally they had hillary +4%. She won by 2% If we had more time between comeys email bitchslap days before the election the polls would have captured the shift in undecided flip floppy voters Basically without the last minute email backstab. Or if trump hadnt gone silent. If he had nother trump poo poo then those undecideds vote completely different.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:21
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JeffersonClay posted:Particularly if Trump won because appeals to racism and sexism work. If that's true, we've got big, systemic problems ahead that won't get solved by running a more charismatic candidate or better messaging on economics. Trump has the rhetoric of a 6 year old but everyone could understand him, even the most illiterate backwaters idiot. He embodied easy to understand symbols. This is what wins elections. I'm not saying Democrats need Oprah, but get over this appeal to rational voters. Voters want someone they can easily identify with. Seriously I was laughing everytime the Democrats had a new ad attacking Trumps' bigotry, racism, etc. They just never got it. It only showed how much more human Trump is which helped.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:24
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Shbobdb posted:Two choices: Minimum wage wont get people into the quarternary sector. U needs lots of money to go back to school as an adult. U have to be able to support a lifetime of bills and family. U have to make enough $/hr to cut back on ur hours to apply those hours to school. And then u need $ for the actual training college. $15/hr barely pays the bills. $15/hr x 50hrs per week = 36k a year income. Thats not even close to being enough Also increased minimum wage doesnt change the fact that jobs dont exist in the rust belt. Even if u do get a job ur sharing it with 20 other people so ur not getting 50hrs/week ur staying in poverty
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Dec 7, 2016 23:31
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Confounding Factor posted:Trump has the rhetoric of a 6 year old but everyone could understand him, even the most illiterate backwaters idiot. He embodied easy to understand symbols. This is what wins elections. I'm not saying Democrats need Oprah, but get over this appeal to rational voters. Voters want someone they can easily identify with. So, bigotry and racism = bad is a complex and incomprehensibly nuanced position?
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Dec 7, 2016 23:33
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a shameful boehner posted:No, they do not. America's economy drives the world's, and it's underpinned by the world's largest/most advanced military and global force projection capability. The only time we should be concerned about the national debt (which historically balloons under Republicans and contracts under Democrats, natch) is when our idiot politicians play chicken about not honoring it in full. Then u better hope that no other country ever unseats america as #1 at everything. God forbid china become bigger than america at everything as projected. Size of military hardly matters when china hacks our satellites, our infrastructure and uses drone swarms to overwhelm our shiney big toys Then our national debt becomes a problem
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Dec 7, 2016 23:36
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a shameful boehner posted:Let me rephrase, then: I'm fine with spending a poo poo ton of money into debt on things that will actually produce positive outcomes for the country. Too bad most of our money goes towards keeping old people alive and wars. Were pouring money down a well. Then borrowing to get more money to throw away
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Dec 7, 2016 23:39
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JeffersonClay posted:That part of the article isn't backed up with data analysis of exit polling. I don't think the author is necessarily wrong, I want data to be convinced. maybe instead of making GBS threads on the only data in the thread you could find some that contradicts my interpretation--assuming it exists. People didnt vote because people are lazy. Hillary was slated to win big And at the last minute hillary got hit by weiner/comey email scandal...again. the straw that broke the russian hack, trickle leak camels back At the last minute public sentiment shifted dramatically. Trump was silent for a while. Things had plateaued. And then facebook was littered with brand new email scandal People have short attention span. Trump raping pussy grabbing was already forgotten.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:45
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The big lesson that I think everyone can agree on is don't nominate Hillary Clinton This leads to the question: why was Hillary nominated? Why did the whole party apparatus decide to run the worst candidate possible? I know some people only realised she was terrible in hindsight, but plenty of people knew it long before the election results came in. Why were so many people either blind or indifferent to her terribleness? Cause you can easily fix the Hillary problem by not nominating her again, but there's an underlying problem that got her nominated in the first place and that needs to be addressed too.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:46
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JeffersonClay posted:I'd add: The false pre-election media narrative that Hillary had it in the bag disproportionately affected democratic turnout by lowering the stakes, and didn't affect Trump supporters as much because they don't listen to the corrupt media anyway. From now on if u want to win u never ever say u have it in the bag. If the polls show ur crushing ur opponent then u remind people about 2016 and trump and brexit Its not that the polls are wrong. But they are only a snapsho of that moment in time. Tomorrow, next week. It can shift dramatically
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Dec 7, 2016 23:49
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logosanatic posted:4) hillary is a moderate. Im a moderate. She understands compromise. Getting the job done. Moving forward in small steps. Dont let perfect be the enemy of the good This whole "you need compromise to get things done" mindset is what drives me nuts about centrists. Slavery was abolished because people with ideals refused to compromise. Nazi Germany was defeated and forced to surrender (with the implicit threat of having a loving atom bomb dropped on them) for the same reason. Humans landed on the Moon in god drat 1969 (half a century ago!) because the country as a whole went balls-to-the-wall and made it happen. In contrast, "compromise" gave us Obamacare instead of single-payer healthcare. Because that's what "compromise" gets you: half-assed bullshit that both sides end up dissatisfied and unhappy with. If you want real progress you need to be bold and courageous even if it results in conflict.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:54
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logosanatic posted:
I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion give what we just saw. Trump made more conventionally damaging statements himself, on live TV, than were contained in any of the emails that came out of the DNC hack. Can you imagine if Hillary had joked about shooting someone on 5th Ave? Bad press had literally no effect on Trump. She ran on the platform of not being Trump, but it turned out that not being Hillary resonated better in the states that mattered.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:55
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Higsian posted:This leads to the question: why was Hillary nominated? Why did the whole party apparatus decide to run the worst candidate possible? I know some people only realised she was terrible in hindsight, but plenty of people knew it long before the election results came in. Why were so many people either blind or indifferent to her terribleness? Hillary was nominated by the DNC almost solely as a "we're sorry 2008 happened, we'll clear the road for you in 2016" sop, imo. Now that DWS is gone and the election lost, they have no other big name Democratic politician to back going forward, and it's gonna be a free-for-all in 2020. Cue the "there's no evidence of DNC collusion against Bernie!!!!" posts which ignore all other context around how Hillary secured her nomination.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:56
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Higsian posted:This leads to the question: why was Hillary nominated? Why did the whole party apparatus decide to run the worst candidate possible? I know some people only realised she was terrible in hindsight, but plenty of people knew it long before the election results came in. Why were so many people either blind or indifferent to her terribleness? The party establishment had been married to her since 2008 and still thought their own farts smelled like rosebuds.
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Dec 7, 2016 23:58
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I'm personally loving the whole "the American electorate can't handle the truth and need to be lied to" shtick a lot of you are doing when a major undoing of Clinton was the rust belt calling her on her bluff of pretending to care about them. Enjoy your constant navel gazing until you try the exact same thing in 2020 and even more of your constituency sits at home disappointed in you
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Dec 7, 2016 23:59
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a shameful boehner posted:Hillary was nominated by the DNC almost solely as a "we're sorry 2008 happened, we'll clear the road for you in 2016" sop, imo. Now that DWS is gone and the election lost, they have no other big name Democratic politician to back going forward, and it's gonna be a free-for-all in 2020. Chelsea Clinton is entering politics however, so we have that to look forward to possibly as early as 2024!
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Dec 7, 2016 23:59
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Higsian posted:This leads to the question: why was Hillary nominated? Why did the whole party apparatus decide to run the worst candidate possible? I know some people only realised she was terrible in hindsight, but plenty of people knew it long before the election results came in. Why were so many people either blind or indifferent to her terribleness? She was nominated because she was the most qualified intelligent candidate that knows how to get things done. She knows how washington works and can compromise. She was a woman and she was bill clintons wife. She was obamas right hand man/woman. Obama and bill clinton are very popular. Hillaries lack of popularity was fabricated by 30 years fake scandals And last of all....the russian hacking trickle leaks hadnt started. Just like any candidate under the same attack she got crushed by it. Everyone looks untrustworthy after months of leaks
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Dec 8, 2016 00:00
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logosanatic posted:Then u better hope that no other country ever unseats america as #1 at everything. This is a different take. I mean, we're almost 250 years old as a country, maybe we should just settle?
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Dec 8, 2016 00:01
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Acinonyx posted:I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion give what we just saw. Trump made more conventionally damaging statements himself, on live TV, than were contained in any of the emails that came out of the DNC hack. Can you imagine if Hillary had joked about shooting someone on 5th Ave? Bad press had literally no effect on Trump. She ran on the platform of not being Trump, but it turned out that not being Hillary resonated better in the states that mattered. If i say gently caress gay people thats me speakig my mind. At least im being honest But if someone leaks my personal emails where i laugh about not giving money to the homeless guy now im a peice of poo poo Perhaps one more presidential election undermined by russian trickle leaks will prove the point and then we can take this new threat seriously
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Dec 8, 2016 00:01
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Also here's something to consider: maybe you don't try to run someone your opposition has spent 30 years preparing for
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Dec 8, 2016 00:05
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Business Gorillas posted:I'm personally loving the whole "the American electorate can't handle the truth and need to be lied to" shtick a lot of you are doing when a major undoing of Clinton was the rust belt calling her on her bluff of pretending to care about them. She didnt lose the rust belt because she pretended to care about them She lost the rust belt because she didnt pretend in simple words. If she started giving big angry speeches about bringing manufacturing and coal back from those dirty chinese half the rust belt would have bought it
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Dec 8, 2016 00:05
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Business Gorillas posted:This is a different take. I mean, we're almost 250 years old as a country, maybe we should just settle? Settle what?
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Dec 8, 2016 00:06
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Did Hillary ever give a reason for having that email server in the first place? I don't remember anymore
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Dec 8, 2016 00:07
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logosanatic posted:If i say gently caress gay people thats me speakig my mind. At least im being honest That's why it makes more sense when you realize that people don't like Hillary. It's not double standards, they are both pieces of poo poo. Trump appealed to some voters because, despite being a piece of poo poo, he seems like the kind of person that would shake things up. The status quo loving sucks and desperate people wanted to make their voices heard
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Dec 8, 2016 00:07
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Did Hillary ever give a reason for having that email server in the first place? I don't remember anymore She asked the government to give her a modern email solution that allowed her to access it from anywhere (similar to Obama's blackberry) and they said no, so she said "gently caress you" and hired a contractor (who unfortunately turned out to be colossally incompetent).
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Dec 8, 2016 00:08
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Yeah, see, pandering to the lowest common denominator works for Republicans for the same reason fake news works on conservatives far more effectively than liberals: they're willing to believe words and statements at face value and rarely dig into an issue or source, whereas in Democratic/liberal circles once you make a statement you're gonna be source-and-fact checked immediately, everywhere. Democratic constituents still ostensibly care about things like "facts", Republicans obviously do not. So Hillary just saying "bringing manufacturing and coal back from those dirty chinese" in her speeches would be a) completely bizarre and out of character for a Democratic politician, likely turning off her base and b) impossible. The whole problem wasn't appealing to the shithead idiots who voted Trump, it's convincing the same Democrats who voted for Obama to come back out again, and Hillary failed miserably at that.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:10
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Business Gorillas posted:Also here's something to consider: maybe you don't try to run someone your opposition has spent 30 years preparing for Going forward sure. Prior to russian meddling. Clinton had this won. So we could nominate our best most qualified candidate with reasonable certainty that she would deliver the white house. Even if she had some cards stacked against her by 30 years of fake controversy. Her pros outweighed the cons. But now that we know every candidate is vulnerable to hacking leaks we dont have the luxury of picking our most qualified candidate. And we also know qualifications dont matter anymore. The rules of the game have changed. We were playing chess not realizing the voters were playing xbox and not even watching our moves Now we have to pick our best conman...err...our most charsimatic personality so they can ride out the assault and that still may not be enough. Gop voters dont care how much dirt u throw at their candidate their fueld by hate u cant penetrate that. Democrat voters will stay home if u dirty their candidate enough. Omg did u see my facebook feed? Another bernie email leak and this time he told a joke about homeless people. I cant vote with my conscious im staying home Ull figure it out eventually. The political landscape has changed. U guys remind me of ww1 generals being surprised by the nazis blowing through their well layed treches U guys are still trying to design better trenches. The voters dont understand all these policy suggestions u guys are making U want to win going forward. Prepare for twitter, youtube, facebook wars. And prepare to have all ur emails made public logosanatic fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 00:14
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Business Gorillas posted:I'm personally loving the whole "the American electorate can't handle the truth and need to be lied to" shtick a lot of you are doing when a major undoing of Clinton was the rust belt calling her on her bluff of pretending to care about them. Given her platform of infrastructure and education, I'm not sure how it was a bluff. And I don't see how "We don't think you care about us so we'll stay home and let someone who definitely doesn't care about us get elected" constitutes calling a bluff.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:16
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Feral Integral posted:That's why it makes more sense when you realize that people don't like Hillary. It's not double standards, they are both pieces of poo poo. Trump appealed to some voters because, despite being a piece of poo poo, he seems like the kind of person that would shake things up. The status quo loving sucks and desperate people wanted to make their voices heard Trump won because hillary was under a constant cloud of conspiracy generated by russian leaks. She couldnt shake the cloud the same way no one else would be able to shake it What trump said was never as bad as what was leaked about hillary.....because it was leaked....so it must be worse.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:18
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If logosanatic was correct and hillary was the best most qualified candidate the democrats had that was pretty loving sad. Hillary was historically disliked candidate, yet the democrats still decided to run her. Her gross incompetence in running her campaign was unbelievable. Hillary should have tried to energize her base, but she completely failed at that. The democratic strategy these past six years of "look at the crazy republicans, don't elect them" only worked loving once, because Obama was just a really charismatic guy. Her leaks may have cost her the election, but it shouldn't have been that close to begin with. Also maybe, she should have just released some of this poo poo- like the goldman sachs speeches. It's better to get it out there then look like your a two faced liar.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:22
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As someone who fully bought into all of the Hillary Hype by the Summer, logosanatic is totally loving wrong.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:27
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Why the hell do people keep saying "Her platform said she'd do X, Y, and Z." as a justification for Clinton's political agenda. We have her whole rich political career to look back on her actions instead of her words.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:30
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The problem with picking the best con man is that the cob man may be cobbing you. We need a charismatic candidate which is not the same thing. Bernie has charisma but is not a con artist. What we really need is a Trudeau.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:33
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Ban me for a week. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 8, 2016 00:40
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Business Gorillas posted:I'm personally loving the whole "the American electorate can't handle the truth and need to be lied to" shtick a lot of you are doing when a major undoing of Clinton was the rust belt calling her on her bluff of pretending to care about them. Those finely discerning voters figured out that Clinton did not love them as much as her own daughter, but missed that Trump was a complete freaking sociopath that would say anything to get elected then gut their rights? Riiiiiiiiiight. This is like running Tony Blair vs Hitler. Sure, Blair hosed up a lot, but he wasn't *Hitler*. You sound like the type that would vote Hitler to stick it to Blair for the Iraq war.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:40
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All those scandals were not nothingburgers, as some would say. The email scandal and Hillary's lies and misdirection made her look very scetchy, and the deleted emails even moreso. The DNC scandal where it was revealed that the DNC were clearly biased and Debbie was fired and promptly hired again made Hillary look like she was rewarding DWS for her work on biasing the DNC primaries. It reeked of cronyism. Then she refused to do an open press confrence for a very long time, and lied about her health near the end. Trump was at least blantant about stuff, hillary mismanaged her scandals and made herself look shadowy and secretive.
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Dec 8, 2016 00:45
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Monaghan posted:If logosanatic was correct and hillary was the best most qualified candidate the democrats had that was pretty loving sad. Hillary was historically disliked candidate, yet the democrats still decided to run her. Theres a difference between historically disliked and most qualified. We elected hillary knowing repubs hated her because she was still going to win despite that. And we get a continuation of obamas policies. And shes the most qualified. It was a calculated decision. What no one saw coming was the russian leaks. Now that we know how this is going to play out gong forward u change the politicial calculation We have to run a more likable candidate because after the leaks start that will dip. And that still may not be enough. A likable candidate turns into shady liar very fast when the leaks start U say she ran a incompetant campaign. Ur just a desk warrior speaking with hindsight. At the time she was running an amazing campaign and was up like 10pts. But the voters are fickle and changed sides at the end with the final weiner comey email No one was prepared for the damage the russians did
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Dec 8, 2016 00:50
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Pharohman777 posted:All those scandals were not nothingburgers, as some would say. The email scandal and Hillary's lies and misdirection made her look very scetchy, and the deleted emails even moreso. The DNC scandal where it was revealed that the DNC were clearly biased and Debbie was fired and promptly hired again made Hillary look like she was rewarding DWS for her work on biasing the DNC primaries. It reeked of cronyism. Then she refused to do an open press confrence for a very long time, and lied about her health near the end. Trump was at least blantant about stuff, hillary mismanaged her scandals and made herself look shadowy and secretive. Ok when the same thing happens to ur next champion well talk again. Im saying no candidate survives hacked leaked emails. Im calling the leaks nothing burgers because every candidate has the same baggage in their emails. What do u think ud find in bernies or trumps emails? Im saying hacking emails is now the most powerful deciding factor for who wins the elections going forward. And theres nothing stopping russians chinese doing it next time You guys are strategising for 2020 about who should run, how charismatic they should be. What their platform should be Its all dust in the wind when facebook stories start swirling about whatever stupid nothingburger was found in the emails Good luck running a candidate where no one on the entire campaign staff and no one in the entire party doesnt do something facebook worthy Hillary was being blamed for anything anyone of her 1000 staff said. You can try to blame her for everything someone on the staff says in email. But thats a really high horse ur sitting on The only thing that matters is it was "leaked" logosanatic fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 00:53
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Why the hell do people keep saying "Her platform said she'd do X, Y, and Z." as a justification for Clinton's political agenda. We have her whole rich political career to look back on her actions instead of her words. There was also the entire "im super progressive guys!" stunt she pulled after her pollsters figured out people actually liked Bernie, a platform that was conveniently dropped as soon as she felt like trump tripping over his own shoelaces was good enough for the win. I mean you could trot out the Napoleon quote again but i kind of hold the MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE IN HISTORY to see exactly how doing so would look to her constituents as empty pandering
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Dec 8, 2016 00:55
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